NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 23, 2017 15:03:56 GMT -5
Masculinity is about striving for supremacy (fierce competition, striving to be the best), labouring hard towards a meaningful goal, the love of women (including romantic and erotic love) and the desire to protect them, the valuing of respect over friendship, and the unwillingness to compromise or yield on fundamental issues. Any man lacking in these characteristics is lacking in what it is for a man to be a man. Strength, machismo, arrogance, courage, tough love, etc. may be correlated with masculinity, but only insofar as they are ancillary to the above. Whatever "toxic masculinity" is considered to be, subtract from it the above and the problem--if it exists--will be found in the remainder. Well, we now have at least definitively established that (at least in some peoples' view) homosexual males are per definition not masculine.
Live and learn...
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justme
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Post by justme on Jan 23, 2017 15:27:50 GMT -5
and I still don't know WTF that means... It means we force them to sit still for hours on end. We expect them to act like girls . We punish them for picking up a stick and playing cops and robbers. We wont allow them to have some time for natural boy roughhousing. It isn't masculinity that is toxic. It is Feminism. Well fuck, guess I was a little boy when I was younger. Too bad I didn't get the boys will be boys excuse in my favor.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 23, 2017 15:31:19 GMT -5
It means we force them to sit still for hours on end. We expect them to act like girls . We punish them for picking up a stick and playing cops and robbers. We wont allow them to have some time for natural boy roughhousing. It isn't masculinity that is toxic. It is Feminism. Well fuck, guess I was a little boy when I was younger. Too bad I didn't get the boys will be boys excuse in my favor. Don't worry about it. That had nothing to do with the actual subject.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 23, 2017 15:33:36 GMT -5
and I still don't know WTF that means... It means we force them to sit still for hours on end. We expect them to act like girls . We punish them for picking up a stick and playing cops and robbers. We wont allow them to have some time for natural boy roughhousing. It isn't masculinity that is toxic. It is Feminism. it's already been mentioned that sitting still is not just a girl thing (even though girls generally seem to be able to do that better). And there are girls who cannot seem to sit still either. I definitely remember playing near the creek and trying to catch frogs and stuff. I remember playing tag in various forms, kickball, and other "boy" games. I had Legos, a My Buddy, and various video game consoles. Was I raised like a boy? I don't think the problem is necessarily feminism. It's the notion that we have to separate stuff into "girl" things and "boy" things. For the longest time, one of DS's favorite toys was Pinky Pie (a My Little Pony character). And he loved the show. I didn't care at all. Why can't kids/people just like what they like without others having to assign arbitrary labels to them? I think the other problem is that society caters to one particular type of personality and labels that as the ideal. Anything outside of that is wrong or problematic.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 23, 2017 15:43:00 GMT -5
Well fuck, guess I was a little boy when I was younger. Too bad I didn't get the boys will be boys excuse in my favor. Don't worry about it. That had nothing to do with the actual subject. Would you have expected it to be germane to the actual subject? C'mon.
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naughtybear
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Post by naughtybear on Jan 23, 2017 15:45:02 GMT -5
I remember being in primary school and being pissed that I wasn't able to play football with the boys during recess. I mean pissed and righteous and like WTF, I even called the teachers out on it and joined in anyway at times when I was feeling particularily contrary. They would let me play for a few minutes then I would have made my point and would wander off.
I just realized I kind of went of topic. I was responding to separating stuff into boy stuff and girl stuff etc
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 23, 2017 15:46:28 GMT -5
The issue is parts of society defining (and celebrating) masculinity in terms of violence, aggression, sexual conquest, and domination. None of those are valid measures of what it should mean to be a real man. Diverting the discussion into boy things and girl things takes away from the issue.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 23, 2017 15:47:53 GMT -5
Don't worry about it. That had nothing to do with the actual subject. Would you have expected it to be germane to the actual subject? C'mon. No, not really. I've read here before....
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 23, 2017 15:49:31 GMT -5
The issue is parts of society defining (and celebrating) masculinity in terms of violence, aggression, sexual conquest, and domination. None of those are valid measures of what it should mean to be a real man. Diverting the discussion into boy things and girl things takes away from the issue. I actually see the two as related. If we expect that boys enjoy stuff that requires some aggression (like certain sports or games) and reward their interest in those things, we are sending them the message that "real men" should be aggressive and dominating.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jan 23, 2017 15:50:25 GMT -5
Well, girls can't grow up to be men. Well, they USED to not be able too. So, being a boy is a precursor. So, it's very relevant.
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Deleted
Joined: Oct 14, 2024 19:23:44 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 15:54:46 GMT -5
I remember being in primary school and being pissed that I wasn't able to play football with the boys during recess. I mean pissed and righteous and like WTF, I even called the teachers out on it and joined in anyway at times when I was feeling particularily contrary. They would let me play for a few minutes then I would have made my point and would wander off. I just realized I kind of went of topic. I was responding to separating stuff into boy stuff and girl stuff etc Girls weren't allowed to play football when I was in school either. My niece is on the high school team and she is a firecracker. She is REALLY GOOD. She's so fast that being smaller than the boys doesn't matter.
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naughtybear
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Post by naughtybear on Jan 23, 2017 16:08:43 GMT -5
Well I grew up in England so I meant soccer but same same lol.
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 23, 2017 16:59:03 GMT -5
I propose we lock the top 10% most toxic chauvinists in a room with the 10% most toxic feminists for a day, let them annihilate each other like matter and antimatter, capture the resulting energy, and use it to power the world's cities for the next 15 years.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 23, 2017 17:09:22 GMT -5
If you think that a group of men aiming to make men as a whole better is tantamount to male bashing, the problem is you.
If you cannot have one single conversation about men without being able to control yourself from veering into talk of mean girls, toxic females, female crime stats, etc, the problem is you.
If you think it's liberal bullcrap to have an honest conversation with young men about the oftentimes aggressive and violent images portrayed in porn, the problem is you.
If you think that owning up to how some of the "traditional male" stereotypical traits like aggression and always taking control are oftentimes less than ideal aims to make men soft and less manly, the problem is you.
I don't have an issue with having discussions on the topic or the philosophy behind it.
But as I said originally, I think the problem is in the presentation and wording. Calling it "toxic masculinity" inherently calls to mind the idea that being a man is wrong and something to be fixed. Even if YOU don't think that, a lot of people do. And it does your cause a disservice if you make people combative right off the bat.
As I said, if you want to have a conference to try to stop males being so aggressive, why not call it "channeling aggression in positive ways" or something less contentious.
What exactly does the term "toxic masculinity" add to the goals that these programs are supposedly aiming to achieve?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 23, 2017 17:10:49 GMT -5
Calling it "toxic masculinity" got you to read the article didn't it? And resulted in 7 pages of discussion so far.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 23, 2017 17:11:51 GMT -5
Because it doesn't make for nearly as good of a sound bite, lecture title, or book title. Duh.
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