MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 10:08:05 GMT -5
We have a son and a daughter. My DH modeled male behavior for both of my kids to see. And, based on the type of personality he is, more traditionally male than my personality, mine being female . He demonstrated and spoke to the way he wanted them to conduct themselves. Son played all types of sports but also did scout and music and many other things as did daughter. He spoke of how to judge character in other people. This was a subject he counseled DD on extensively in vetting boys as she began dating. He did the same with DS but from the angle of a teen age boy because, indeed, they were different from each other not just in personality types but from a male/female perspective. DS was taught respect, courtesy and to be protector if necessary not just for girls but for anyone younger or weaker or anyone unable to defend themselves. DD knew this as well. He advised DS to never strike out physically unless he was hit first...then you have the right to defend yourself and NEVER hit your sister. Neither DS or DD suffer from any violent or anti-social tendencies. If you met them they would treat you with kindness and courtesy, you'd be made to feel comfortable around them and welcomed. We're proud of the way we raised them. We did what we felt was right. And we did it in agreement. And yes, we took from traditional male and female points of view. Flame away............ And you did a great job raising your children. But I know lots of men who would never hit a woman that were raised in more traditional ways. I don't think we have to soften men just to make them good people. They should be taught manners, to never hit first, no means no, etc. We can do that by being parents. Not by telling men that they have to change who they are...I like men just the way they are
Where I disagree with you is on "never hit your sister". I believe a man should never hit anyone first, but if a female hits him first she deserves what she gets back. Women shouldn't be hitting, either.
Soften men? What are men supposed to be?
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jan 20, 2017 10:19:24 GMT -5
Thank you for your answer. I do not think there are a significant number of men out there who think violence is the answer to any question. I think men are generally great. And believe me, I have more reason to think otherwise than most. I hope you are wrong in your assertion that it's a significant number but I guess I don't know for sure.
On your other point, I do agree that how a person is raised goes a long way in determining what kind of adult they will be. However, it's not a strict determination. At a very early age, we know right from wrong regardless of what we see at home. You can't live in this world, go to school, etc., and not learn that. Whether or not you choose to take the right path is a choice after a certain point - not a given due to your raising. I'm not sure any retraining is going to change that. But maybe it will. Who knows? I guess it can't hurt.
I don't think that any preferences a man has makes him less of a man. Personally, I'm attracted to a certain type of man. Others are attracted to a different kind. I'm assuming it the same with men. The only thing "wrong" is for us to think we have the right to tell others what they should prefer.
Domestic violence statistics in this country would argue against that, not to mention incarceration numbers. You may be fortunate that there are few men in the social circles you inhabit that would perpetrate such things. College sexual assault stats also argue against that. www.cnn.com/2015/09/22/health/campus-sexual-assault-new-large-survey/
|
|
naughtybear
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 10, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Posts: 996
|
Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 10:27:58 GMT -5
What is the ratio of men to women on this planet?
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,109
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 20, 2017 10:30:59 GMT -5
So they are less likely to become psychopaths, sadists, assholes, or have other deep character flaws? So, if a bunch of men got together and held a conference or academic symposium on how women can stop being bitches, you don't think that would raise any eyebrows or blowback? That's not even what this is. If men wanted to get together with women to discuss stereotypes about women and how they effect women I would be all for that. Men and women should both be included in gender stereotype discussions because prejudice does not operate in a vaccuum. Stereotypes about men effect me just as much as stereotypes about me affect them. Sexual assault and harassment is a good example of that. We're not going to make a lot of headway if men and women can't talk together about the negative stereotypes involved. The only way you learn is by talking to each other. We did an exercise like this in my hippy dippy human relations class in high school. It was quite eye opening to hear what the boys had to say regarding stereotypes and how many of them overlapped with stereotypes about girls. And why does talking about stereotypes that affect men "soften' them? There is a stereotype right there that needs to die. Why should any men who want to discuss issues related to their gender be accused of being "soft"? Why should any woman who wants to include men at the table when it comes to gender issues be accused of "trying to turn them into women?" That right there highlights the problem. It's not just women who are subject to unconcious cultural biases, men are too. We've made great strides in addressing these things when it comes to women but nobody seems interested in helping men do the same. Good for the Duke women's department for leading the charge. If I made a bunch of claims about how to be a "real" woman I'd have so many posters jumping down my throat I'd choke to death, but apparently it's okay to make those claims about men?
|
|
973beachbum
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:12:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,501
|
Post by 973beachbum on Jan 20, 2017 10:33:09 GMT -5
On the whole Earth? I think it is really close, maybe 51 women to 49 men but in some countries or regions is is a bigger difference. I think on college campus's it is more like 57 women to 43 percent men.
|
|
naughtybear
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 10, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Posts: 996
|
Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 10:45:07 GMT -5
Thanks, I would like to extrapolate percentage wise XYZ post about the true percentage of violent tendencies in the population as a whole to men vs women. Math majors anyone?
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 11:16:47 GMT -5
FROM the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence *1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have been victims of [some form of] physical violence by an intimate partner within their lifetime. *1 in 5 women and 1 in 7 men have been victims of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime. *1 in 7 women and 1 in 18 men have been stalked by an intimate partner during their lifetime to the point in which they felt very fearful or believed that they or someone close to them would be harmed or killed. Where are all those women reflected above learning all that toxic behavior? How can we cure this epidemic of TOXIC FEMININITY? It is high time to start to educate the public about the problems with TOXIC female behavior. Not to mention this national epidemic: *Women are more likely than men to be in prison for fraud and robbery. *Women are more likely than men to have been caught for larceny or theft, fraud and drug possession. *Three out of four victims of violent female offenders were women. *Since 1990 the number of female defendants convicted of felonies in State courts has grown at more than 2 times the rate of increase in male defendants. *In 1996 the average sentence and time served for women were shorter than for males with equivalent offenses. AND....on and on and on....it is fun to play with statistics. I could EASILY make the case that we are experiencing an EPIDEMIC of TOXIC FEMALE behavior in our society today. did you miss how the numbers are MUCH lower for men? And if you account for underreporting, the numbers for men AND women would be higher. Try again.
|
|
naughtybear
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 10, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Posts: 996
|
Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 11:18:43 GMT -5
Yeah exactly MJ, you get my point I was trying to make, he doesn't.
|
|
alabamagal
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 11:30:29 GMT -5
Posts: 8,148
|
Post by alabamagal on Jan 20, 2017 11:19:03 GMT -5
On the "women should not hit men" thing, I totally agree. No one should use violence. But if a woman physically assaults a man, she is putting herself in a bad situation.
My DS22 and I were discussing a situation where an athlete hit a woman in a bar after she hit him first. My thought was they were both at fault and should be charged with assault. My DS22 told me "Mom, there is never a situation where a guy should punch a woman". Maybe he is just an idealist and I am a realist. I would expect him to defend himself. But I seriously doubt he will ever be in that situation.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 11:24:42 GMT -5
I agree that no one should hit anyone, and that if you hit you shouldn't be surprised to get hit back. But between a man and woman of similar size, build, and athletic ability, who do you think would cause more damage?
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Jan 20, 2017 11:25:32 GMT -5
Those are the facts, (see post above) sorry. AND...I suspect that the statistics on domestic violence against men by a partner, 1 in 4, versus 1 in 3 for women, are NOT accurate and under-report for men due to the fact that men tend to not report violence against them by women to the same degree that women report against men. THE HORRORS of TOXIC FEMININITY. Statistics and common knowledge get all twisted around when there is an agenda and movement and industry built around them. I do not condone violence against anyone or anything. I also do not trust broad statistics as they are thrown around today. So, you didn't actually read what any of these groups was actually about?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 11:31:08 GMT -5
So, if a bunch of men got together and held a conference or academic symposium on how women can stop being bitches, you don't think that would raise any eyebrows or blowback? That's not even what this is. If men wanted to get together with women to discuss stereotypes about women and how they effect women I would be all for that. Men and women should both be included in gender stereotype discussions because prejudice does not operate in a vaccuum. Stereotypes about men effect me just as much as stereotypes about me affect them. Sexual assault and harassment is a good example of that. We're not going to make a lot of headway if men and women can't talk together about the negative stereotypes involved. The only way you learn is by talking to each other. We did an exercise like this in my hippy dippy human relations class in high school. It was quite eye opening to hear what the boys had to say regarding stereotypes and how many of them overlapped with stereotypes about girls. And why does talking about stereotypes that affect men "soften' them? There is a stereotype right there that needs to die. Why should any men who want to discuss issues related to their gender be accused of being "soft"? Why should any woman who wants to include men at the table when it comes to gender issues be accused of "trying to turn them into women?" That right there highlights the problem. It's not just women who are subject to unconcious cultural biases, men are too. We've made great strides in addressing these things when it comes to women but nobody seems interested in helping men do the same. Good for the Duke women's department for leading the charge. If I made a bunch of claims about how to be a "real" woman I'd have so many posters jumping down my throat I'd choke to death, but apparently it's okay to make those claims about men? The Path To De-Toxifying Toxic Masculinity
With all this in mind, we’re forced to ask just how we can start fixing men and repairing the damage done by toxic masculine ideals.
goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-between-toxic-masculinity-and-being-a-man-dg/
What I copied and highlighted is what I take issue with (it is from one of the links in the article). There is nothing wrong with men. If a bunch of studies said that we needed to "fix women" there would be a shit ton of you up in arms. "War on women" would be yelled from the rooftops. yet those same women are ok with "toxic masculinity" "fixing men". The hypocrisy of it blows my mind.
Sorry, I don't think men need to be fixed. I think assholes need to be fixed and that includes people of both genders.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 11:34:44 GMT -5
I agree that no one should hit anyone, and that if you hit you shouldn't be surprised to get hit back. But between a man and woman of similar size, build, and athletic ability, who do you think would cause more damage? Hmm...so you are saying that men and women aren't the same? Because that goes against all of the other threads where I'm called on the carpet for saying the same thing (as it relates to women performing work that takes physical strength - firefighter, military combat, etc). I'm told women can do the same thing as men. We can't have it both ways.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 11:40:49 GMT -5
As to reading......if you read what I posted above I am saying in it is MEN that do not report violence against them by women. It is domestic violence against MEN by women that is under-reported. If you want to make the case that this is somehow a toxic male issue, you can not ignore the fact that at 1 in 4 males have been victimized by a partner. I ASSUME the word partner means a FEMALE doing the violence. Another pointless argument on YOUR MONEY. So, as usual........,.good-day. so you're really gonna sit here and say that violence toward women against men is not at all underreported? Really?!?! Like, am I seriously reading that nonsense right now?!?!?! Did I stroke out for 5 minutes and imagine that post?!?! Bye.
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,720
|
Post by midjd on Jan 20, 2017 11:41:18 GMT -5
Why would you assume that? Same-sex relationships are not immune from domestic violence.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 11:42:25 GMT -5
I agree that no one should hit anyone, and that if you hit you shouldn't be surprised to get hit back. But between a man and woman of similar size, build, and athletic ability, who do you think would cause more damage? Hmm...so you are saying that men and women aren't the same? Because that goes against all of the other threads where I'm called on the carpet for saying the same thing (as it relates to women performing work that takes physical strength - firefighter, military combat, etc). I'm told women can do the same thing as men. We can't have it both ways.
of course we're different physically - no one is arguing against that. We have been talking about mental and emotional needs and wants.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 11:44:24 GMT -5
Why would you assume that? Same-sex relationships are not immune from domestic violence. you know what they say about assuming...
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 11:50:07 GMT -5
Hmm...so you are saying that men and women aren't the same? Because that goes against all of the other threads where I'm called on the carpet for saying the same thing (as it relates to women performing work that takes physical strength - firefighter, military combat, etc). I'm told women can do the same thing as men. We can't have it both ways.
of course we're different physically - no one is arguing against that. We have been talking about mental and emotional needs and wants. In this thread no one is arguing it. I have been on the receiving end of the liberal backlash when I dared say that men/women are physiologically different. So it seems that we are the same when it fits our agenda but different when it doesn't.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 11:57:28 GMT -5
think what you want. I just know that I have never ever said that women and men were physically the same. Mentally/emotionally, I think we are a lot more alike than people want to believe. I can't speak to what other people on here have said or what they believe. I believe that the POTENTIAL is there for men or women to be what they want to be - doesn't mean we bend over backwards to make unqualified people qualified. That has always been my stance.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Jan 20, 2017 12:02:10 GMT -5
think what you want. I just know that I have never ever said that women and men were physically the same. Mentally/emotionally, I think we are a lot more alike than people want to believe. I can't speak to what other people on here have said or what they believe. I believe that the POTENTIAL is there for men or women to be what they want to be - doesn't mean we bend over backwards to make unqualified people qualified. That has always been my stance. No one has ever said that all women are physically as strong as all men, or even as strong on average. What has been said is that some women are perfectly capable of meeting the physical criteria to hold jobs that were traditionally considered male. Conversely, some men aren't physically capable. People come in all shapes and sizes.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Jan 20, 2017 12:04:22 GMT -5
If you think that a group of men aiming to make men as a whole better is tantamount to male bashing, the problem is you.
If you cannot have one single conversation about men without being able to control yourself from veering into talk of mean girls, toxic females, female crime stats, etc, the problem is you.
If you think it's liberal bullcrap to have an honest conversation with young men about the oftentimes aggressive and violent images portrayed in porn, the problem is you.
If you think that owning up to how some of the "traditional male" stereotypical traits like aggression and always taking control are oftentimes less than ideal aims to make men soft and less manly, the problem is you.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 12:13:08 GMT -5
think what you want. I just know that I have never ever said that women and men were physically the same. Mentally/emotionally, I think we are a lot more alike than people want to believe. I can't speak to what other people on here have said or what they believe. I believe that the POTENTIAL is there for men or women to be what they want to be - doesn't mean we bend over backwards to make unqualified people qualified. That has always been my stance. No one has ever said that all women are physically as strong as all men, or even as strong on average. What has been said is that some women are perfectly capable of meeting the physical criteria to hold jobs that were traditionally considered male. Conversely, some men aren't physically capable. People come in all shapes and sizes. I think we're pretty much saying the same thing, lol!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 12:13:27 GMT -5
think what you want. I just know that I have never ever said that women and men were physically the same. Mentally/emotionally, I think we are a lot more alike than people want to believe. I can't speak to what other people on here have said or what they believe. I believe that the POTENTIAL is there for men or women to be what they want to be - doesn't mean we bend over backwards to make unqualified people qualified. That has always been my stance. My statement was a general statement about what has been said to me on this board. I never said you are the one that said it.
If we were equal tehn we wouldn't have different standards to meet. We aren't equal in that way. I know it and am fine with it.
We have gotten off topic....lol
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 11,049
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2017 12:22:49 GMT -5
think what you want. I just know that I have never ever said that women and men were physically the same. Mentally/emotionally, I think we are a lot more alike than people want to believe. I can't speak to what other people on here have said or what they believe. I believe that the POTENTIAL is there for men or women to be what they want to be - doesn't mean we bend over backwards to make unqualified people qualified. That has always been my stance. My statement was a general statement about what has been said to me on this board. I never said you are the one that said it.
If we were equal tehn we wouldn't have different standards to meet. We aren't equal in that way. I know it and am fine with it.
We have gotten off topic....lol
okay, just making sure you're not lumping all us "foaming at the mouth liberals" into the same category. I'm actually curious - I don't know if it's been mentioned already: what exactly about masculinity are we trying to eliminate? Are there any examples in this thread? *Not directed at you in particular, Tina - I'm just too lazy to make a separate post, lol.
|
|
naughtybear
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 10, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Posts: 996
|
Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 13:31:57 GMT -5
I think "I" can concede that maybe just maybe that the group could be possibly theorectically having the urge to change mens behavior to the detriment of men being men, the part of men that are good and honest and kind and protective and what not. Coming from a womens studies group and with the name "toxic masculinity" I can "nearly" concede that point.
Hey ladies, who is against a group of us getting together and discussing issues of womens toxicity?
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 13:35:37 GMT -5
I think "I" can concede that maybe just maybe that the group could be possibly theorectically having the urge to change mens behavior to the detriment of men being men, the part of men that are good and honest and kind and protective and what not. Coming from a womens studies group and with the name "toxic masculinity" I can "nearly" concede that point. Hey ladies, who is against a group of us getting together and discussing issues of womens toxicity? Can't we just get together and have margaritas?? I don't want to discuss anyone's toxicity...unless I personally know them to be toxic. Hey, we can get together and discuss our toxic exes!
|
|
naughtybear
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 10, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Posts: 996
|
Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 13:41:10 GMT -5
Can we just shoot tequila, margaritas give me heartburn. My ex wasn't a bad guy, just after 25 yrs we grew apart.
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 13:42:27 GMT -5
Can't we just get together and have margaritas?? I don't want to discuss anyone's toxicity...unless I personally know them to be toxic. Hey, we can get together and discuss our toxic exes! Not a margarita fan... change that up to something else and I'm there! Martinis, wine, shots...you name it and we are there!
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 13:42:44 GMT -5
Can we just shoot tequila, margaritas give me heartburn. My ex wasn't a bad guy, just after 25 yrs we grew apart. Ok...we can get together and dis mine!lol
|
|
naughtybear
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 10, 2016 17:03:08 GMT -5
Posts: 996
|
Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 13:45:38 GMT -5
I don't know girl, I would probably have great things to say about yours too after shooting tequila, I get way to emo.
|
|