giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2017 17:23:49 GMT -5
Think about how kids who are now in college likely learned sex now..really, it's porn.
I think that *watching* it is a whole lot different different than using playboy to rub one out.
And, sure we'd all like to say "Well, of course it's the parents job to teach the kids that porn is fantasy."
But, I can also tell you in my circle, even though parents are SUPPOSED to be monitoring what their kids are doing online...they in fact, are not.
So, if parents aren't going to tell young men that porn doesn't always duplicate real life...and school doesn't teach the kids that porn isn't exactly real life (Lawmakers in my state want to go back to absetence only sex ed programs...where are young men going to learn this?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 19, 2017 17:25:05 GMT -5
To some people it is. How often to do you hear excuses for boys behavior as in "boys will be boys?" How often is the phrase 'mean girls' used? Should that be retrained out of girls? Are they flawed because of it? Good question. You made me think.
mean girls doesn't sound right, Yes, I think they are seen as flawed.
If women are being mean, they are called mean girls, but it does not excuse their behavior. Boys will be boys seems be used to excuse both harmless pranks and violent crime, like the Stanford swimmer rapist.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jan 19, 2017 17:27:08 GMT -5
To some people it is. How often to do you hear excuses for boys behavior as in "boys will be boys?" Never. Not in real life anyway. Except maybe on TV. But then I don't have kids. Maybe I'd hear it more if I did. I had a parent once (a dad no less) use that excuse on me when I was in college. The dad said "You know, boys will be boys." and I responded, "No, I'm sorry I don't understand. Your son is disruptive and I can't teach the group. The other kids are noticing and taking issues. Please talk to him about appropriate behavior." Then I started talking to the kid more. I got the impression his parents did not handle their divorce with grace. And the kid reacted the only way he knew how to.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2017 17:28:14 GMT -5
... I do wonder if the people on here that think this is a great idea would be just as thrilled with something like "feminine toxicity" What would "feminine toxicity" look like? If "toxic masculinity" would include a man using violence to get what he wants from a woman, perhaps "feminine toxicity" would include a woman using sexuality to get what she wants from a man.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 19, 2017 17:38:21 GMT -5
What would "feminine toxicity" look like? If "toxic masculinity" would include a man using violence to get what he wants from a woman, perhaps "feminine toxicity" would include a woman using sexuality to get what she wants from a man. Actually from my experience, women use the same level of aggression that men do, the difference is the form it takes. And they are chastised for it while men are praised.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jan 19, 2017 17:38:44 GMT -5
How often is the phrase 'mean girls' used? Should that be retrained out of girls? Are they flawed because of it? Good question. You made me think.
mean girls doesn't sound right, Yes, I think they are seen as flawed.
If women are being mean, they are called mean girls, but it does not excuse their behavior. Boys will be boys seems be used to excuse both harmless pranks and violent crime, like the Stanford swimmer rapist.
Yes, I've always felt that calling someone a "mean girl" or the equivelant was more of a 'complaint' against them - against their character. They are flawed. I'm never seen it used as an excuse to shrug off bad behavior.
Anytime "boys will be boys" is implied as an excuse for bad behavior by a guy it's an excuse that means nothing can be done. They are NOT responsible for their behavior and hey, they couldn't help it... they didn't know better.. they didn't mean it... they won't do it again. They aren't 'bad' or 'flawed' they did was just something they did - it doesn't mean anything. A boy can always be a boy... they don't need to change.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2017 17:41:01 GMT -5
Do I believe that the average guy thinks that? No, but the average guy is not the one showing up on the news at night. Do I believe that there is a significant number of men out there that DO think that? Yes. And no, I did not require re-training. I was not only born with the capabilities to fill my own definition, but in a good family as well. Many do not have those advantages, sadly. Thank you for your answer. I do not think there are a significant number of men out there who think violence is the answer to any question. I think men are generally great. And believe me, I have more reason to think otherwise than most. I hope you are wrong in your assertion that it's a significant number but I guess I don't know for sure.
On your other point, I do agree that how a person is raised goes a long way in determining what kind of adult they will be. However, it's not a strict determination. At a very early age, we know right from wrong regardless of what we see at home. You can't live in this world, go to school, etc., and not learn that. Whether or not you choose to take the right path is a choice after a certain point - not a given due to your raising. I'm not sure any retraining is going to change that. But maybe it will. Who knows? I guess it can't hurt.
I don't think that any preferences a man has makes him less of a man. Personally, I'm attracted to a certain type of man. Others are attracted to a different kind. I'm assuming it the same with men. The only thing "wrong" is for us to think we have the right to tell others what they should prefer.
Domestic violence statistics in this country would argue against that, not to mention incarceration numbers. You may be fortunate that there are few men in the social circles you inhabit that would perpetrate such things.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jan 19, 2017 17:47:35 GMT -5
The issue I have with all of this hippy-dippy stuff is that men ARE different than woman.
Not really. Science is showing more and more each day that on a biological and brain level we are NOT that different from each other. A lot of the societal norms that we tend to hold dear and as 'fact" about both sexes are rooted in Victorian ideals that were created in order to support the status quo. We've spent a lot of time focusing on breaking down stereotypes regarding women but nobody seems to be paying as much attention to those that men are subjected to. Largely because, especially in America, we tend to view a lot of the stereotypes against men as positives. How many people here have pretty much said that a man who stays at home is not a "real" man?. I've lost count of how many threads about parents have had posters say that it is perfectly normal and acceptable for a man to not be interested in his children because "men are not programmed to be nuturers/parents" which is FAR from true. Men are far less likely to come forward if they are raped because people don't believe a man can be raped. Men "always want sex" so therefore a man can't "truly" be raped because deep down he probably wanted it/enjoyed it. Men are "stronger" than women so getting raped by a woman must be impossible. If he really didn't want to be raped he should not have been able to get a boner (just like women shouldn't be able to get pregnant if they were truly raped). Getting raped by another man is even worse, it's implied if that happened you must be a closet homosexual because otherwise you would have "punched him in the nuts". The "punch him in the nuts" is a direct quote from a post that was on here when a similar topic was raised. It's the same thing with sexual harassment, men are even less likely to be believed than women. They also get the double whammy of having it be assumed they are sexual harassers because "all men think about and want is sex". We've spent a large amount of time telling girls they can be anything but have not spent nearly as much time encouraging boys to find new niches to expand into. While women are moving into certain fields that means they are also moving OUT of other fields. Those fields are ripe for men to move into but nobody is saying that because those are "women's" jobs or "fluff" jobs. I see no reason why it should be considered "hippy dippy liberal crap" for men to have their own empowerment type groups to talk about issues related to their gender.In fact this is part of the problem and highlights the unconcious cultural biases that men face. The mere idea that men may want to form a group to discuss issues related to their gender is apparently "trying to turn men into women". I just caught this. I don't think there's anything wrong with empowerment groups for men. However when the empowerment group is titled "Toxic" then I think there's an issue. I also think there's an issue when it's the women's studies department leading it as in the one at Duke. I don't think toxic is the word I'd use either. I can see what context they were shooting for but that's not what most people's reactions would be to the word, especially when presented in a click bait article. I don't have a problem with the women's department doing it because there is no such thing as a men's department. If they can remain objective while opening up the table to men I'm all for it. In a truly equal world there wouldn't be a women's or men's department. Just a gender studies department but we're not remotely close to that yet.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jan 19, 2017 18:15:11 GMT -5
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 18:39:11 GMT -5
Never. Not in real life anyway. Except maybe on TV. But then I don't have kids. Maybe I'd hear it more if I did. I had a parent once (a dad no less) use that excuse on me when I was in college. The dad said "You know, boys will be boys." and I responded, "No, I'm sorry I don't understand. Your son is disruptive and I can't teach the group. The other kids are noticing and taking issues. Please talk to him about appropriate behavior." Then I started talking to the kid more. I got the impression his parents did not handle their divorce with grace. And the kid reacted the only way he knew how to. Did you get the impression he was sort of proud of it? I hear women say they are "bitches" or "mean girls" or other things like that and they seem proud of it. I don't get that.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 19, 2017 18:39:40 GMT -5
Yes, men perpetrate "toxic" masculinity on other men. Please note, not ALL men. We get that. But, it's still part of the societal norm to say "boys don't cry", "boys will be boys", and "he only hits you because he likes you". And think about how many movies and tv shows you have seen where the jocks stuff the nerd in the locker. As recently as Glee, we had the jocks dumping the glee kids in the dumpster. That's toxic masculinity.
And yes, we have toxic femininity. We call it mean girls (notice we don't have the phrase mean boys). And it results in girls being mean to other girls for not meeting appearance standards, for not dressing the right way, for being nerds instead of cheerleaders. In adults it results in the mommy wars, and the "breast is best" movement, and all the other ways women try to call other women not real women (or not real mothers). That's toxic femininity.
The thing is, we've been calling it out in women longer. We've been teaching our daughters about dealing with mean girls longer (while hoping against hope they aren't the mean girls). We haven't been doing that for our sons. The Mommy Wars exist because a significant subsection of women were willing to stand up to toxic femininity (though sometimes becoming toxic themselves). Among women, we have been having these discussions and fighting these fights for a long time.
We are now trying to extend that fight to our sons. We want to teach them to stand up to the bullies (while hoping against hope they aren't the bullies). We want to teach them that they can play football and sing in the choir. Or just do one. Or do neither. And that their choices in those matters don't have any effect on how much of a "man" they are.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 18:42:32 GMT -5
Thank you for your answer. I do not think there are a significant number of men out there who think violence is the answer to any question. I think men are generally great. And believe me, I have more reason to think otherwise than most. I hope you are wrong in your assertion that it's a significant number but I guess I don't know for sure.
On your other point, I do agree that how a person is raised goes a long way in determining what kind of adult they will be. However, it's not a strict determination. At a very early age, we know right from wrong regardless of what we see at home. You can't live in this world, go to school, etc., and not learn that. Whether or not you choose to take the right path is a choice after a certain point - not a given due to your raising. I'm not sure any retraining is going to change that. But maybe it will. Who knows? I guess it can't hurt.
I don't think that any preferences a man has makes him less of a man. Personally, I'm attracted to a certain type of man. Others are attracted to a different kind. I'm assuming it the same with men. The only thing "wrong" is for us to think we have the right to tell others what they should prefer.
Domestic violence statistics in this country would argue against that, not to mention incarceration numbers. You may be fortunate that there are few men in the social circles you inhabit that would perpetrate such things. It's not exactly "social circles" that I travel in and have experience with when it comes to this sort of thing. But..one is one too many.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 19, 2017 20:31:08 GMT -5
I never interpreted things like "grow a pair" or "man up" to mean you have to drink beer or like sports.
I take it simply to mean to have the courage, tenacity, and gumption to do what needs to done. Life is hard, and sometimes you have to be tough and persevere through it. It can be argued whether or not it's wrong that is widely considered to be a inherently "male" trait, but the female equivalent is "put on your big girl panties." But I don't think there's anything wrong with the inherent message of "man up." In fact, if that's something that has to be "fixed" or "changed" then I think we'll all be worse off for it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 19, 2017 20:33:34 GMT -5
I'm not I agree with the idea crying. I think it's okay to cry alone or amongst close friends and family, but I still think it's inappropriate to cry in public (to be fair, I think that's true for women too.) And it's especially wrong to cry at work.
I don't know, I guess I feel like I should control my emotions, rather than have them control me. But I guess a lot of people don't feel that way.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 19, 2017 20:35:17 GMT -5
I have a question for the men here. Mostly, I find that criticism of women comes from other women. Is the same true of men? No. Men love to offer advice though. But it's rarely done in a critical light.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2017 20:43:40 GMT -5
I have a question for the men here. Mostly, I find that criticism of women comes from other women. Is the same true of men? My experience is that it is true, most of the criticism directed at me has come from women.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 19, 2017 20:46:24 GMT -5
Thanks for your answers, gentlemen.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 19, 2017 20:50:36 GMT -5
So, I haven't read the article, but I am familiar with the concept of toxic masculinity (and I work on a college campus). First, I remind you that write-ups of classes and seminars in official university publications are often ridiculous and use academic language and phrasing that none of us would ever use in real life. However, the idea of toxic masculinity is very basic. Toxic masculinity is that idea that there is only one way to be a "real" man. Toxic masculinity is what tells us that "boys don't cry", tells us to "man up" or "grow a pair". It is what tells us that boys are mean to girls because they like them, and that that's okay. It is the idea that tells us that men who don't like sports and beer aren't real men. If you don't play a sport, you're a "sissy". In a sense, the idea of toxic masculinity is the idea that our societal patriarchal norms have been bad for/holding back men as well as women.
The fight against toxic masculinity then is the fight for inclusion of all men. It is the fight that says it is okay for boys/men to cry, if they feel like it. It is the fight that says hitting someone is not how you express that you like them. It is the fight that says you cannot define men or masculinity based on any one set of parameters any more than you can define women/femininity based on one set of parameters. It is the fight that says you be you, I'll be me, and we'll both be okay.
It is NOT a fight that says men must cry. (Some men never will, just like some women never will.) It is not a fight that says sports are bad. And it is not a fight that says men are inherently bad.
It is a fight against systematic, entrenched, discrimination against men who don't behave the way "society" thinks men should behave. I also believe that toxic masculinity includes the "locker room" excuses and snickering that follow the "grab her by the cat" remarks. It is the direct result of the way society has always and to some/a large extend still looks at men. It is not the same as "turning men into women" by a long shot
eta: autocorrect strikes again. I quoted a certain person but you can all fill in the other feline refence for yourself I believe.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Jan 19, 2017 20:57:29 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this fits in here. I lettered in track in high school but was also VP of our ham radio club. So a geek and somewhat jock. I was considered a big brother to many girls and didn't date much. I respected the girls I dated. I had no problem being sensitive yet masculine.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 19, 2017 21:03:47 GMT -5
I'm not I agree with the idea crying. I think it's okay to cry alone or amongst close friends and family, but I still think it's inappropriate to cry in public (to be fair, I think that's true for women too.) And it's especially wrong to cry at work. I don't know, I guess I feel like I should control my emotions, rather than have them control me. But I guess a lot of people don't feel that way. I bet most people who cry at work or in public didn't want or intend to do it. If I got a call at work saying my son was killed in a horrible accident, making sure I cry alone wouldn't even be a blip on my radar.
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quince
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Post by quince on Jan 19, 2017 21:39:40 GMT -5
Agree agree agree. If I'm dealing with that kind of grief? How uncomfortable it might make other people is not something I am likely to concern myself with. Trying to find a reason to go on living might be.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 20, 2017 7:45:44 GMT -5
I would teach them to never hit first,
We have a son and a daughter. My DH modeled male behavior for both of my kids to see. And, based on the type of personality he is, more traditionally male than my personality, mine being female . He demonstrated and spoke to the way he wanted them to conduct themselves. Son played all types of sports but also did scout and music and many other things as did daughter. He spoke of how to judge character in other people. This was a subject he counseled DD on extensively in vetting boys as she began dating. He did the same with DS but from the angle of a teen age boy because, indeed, they were different from each other not just in personality types but from a male/female perspective. DS was taught respect, courtesy and to be protector if necessary not just for girls but for anyone younger or weaker or anyone unable to defend themselves. DD knew this as well. He advised DS to never strike out physically unless he was hit first...then you have the right to defend yourself and NEVER hit your sister. Neither DS or DD suffer from any violent or anti-social tendencies. If you met them they would treat you with kindness and courtesy, you'd be made to feel comfortable around them and welcomed. We're proud of the way we raised them. We did what we felt was right. And we did it in agreement. And yes, we took from traditional male and female points of view. Flame away............
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 20, 2017 8:46:48 GMT -5
I think it is a bunch of liberal crap. I don't know how telling boys/men "It's ok to cry" will stop violence. I don't want anyone telling me how to act as a woman. I taught my boys to be gentlemen. They also learned how to behave in various situations. So the behavior in the football locker room is different than that in church. I think it is important to be able to fit into all kinds of situations. Of course my boys grew up in a household where Mom worked in a male-dominated profession, made more money than Dad and drinks beer. Dad works in a profession where there are more women and he drinks fruity-drinks. That is just how we roll. My ex was a typical alpha male but he loved his umbrella drinks! I remember one waitress teasing him about it and he said, "hey, I'm confident in who I am so I'm ok with my girlie drinks"...lol Maybe it's who you hang out with. I have never been much a drinker, of both girlie not so girlie drinks. In addition, I've never been into sports, either playing or watching them. I've never felt "oppressed" by other men.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jan 20, 2017 8:56:18 GMT -5
I think that's a very good definition. And it fits almost all the men I've ever encountered. The ones it doesn't fit seem to be the psychopaths, sadists, assholes, and ones with other deep character flaws. For the record I've met as many women who fit that description, with the same exceptions. So why again are we saying that men have to be 'retrained' in the ways of masculinity? So they are less likely to become psychopaths, sadists, assholes, or have other deep character flaws? So, if a bunch of men got together and held a conference or academic symposium on how women can stop being bitches, you don't think that would raise any eyebrows or blowback?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 20, 2017 9:10:35 GMT -5
LOL!! I'm not a betting person, but I'd bet on that one!
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naughtybear
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Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 9:20:17 GMT -5
Just like MJ said I knew where this would go and it did.
1. I don't like the toxic part either, poor choice.
2. Coming from a women's studies is IMO sure to get hackles up. Putting these two points together does raise eyebrows that "men are not good enough" "men should change to suit women'
HOWEVER...there is STILL a huge domestic violence incidents where 94% of victims killed are females. That indicates to me huge issues with a subset of men that cannot handle rejection, rage, life etc. Domestic violence happens to both sexes but overwhelmingly females lose their life in these incidences.
Somehow somewhere these men are learning that it is ok to resort to violence when things don't go their way/get what he wants. Just like a woman may cry when she doesn't get her way/get what she wants (both are immature reactions) the male doesn't end up dead.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 9:26:54 GMT -5
So they are less likely to become psychopaths, sadists, assholes, or have other deep character flaws? So, if a bunch of men got together and held a conference or academic symposium on how women can stop being bitches, you don't think that would raise any eyebrows or blowback? Already exists:
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jan 20, 2017 9:33:04 GMT -5
I would teach them to never hit first,
We have a son and a daughter. My DH modeled male behavior for both of my kids to see. And, based on the type of personality he is, more traditionally male than my personality, mine being female . He demonstrated and spoke to the way he wanted them to conduct themselves. Son played all types of sports but also did scout and music and many other things as did daughter. He spoke of how to judge character in other people. This was a subject he counseled DD on extensively in vetting boys as she began dating. He did the same with DS but from the angle of a teen age boy because, indeed, they were different from each other not just in personality types but from a male/female perspective. DS was taught respect, courtesy and to be protector if necessary not just for girls but for anyone younger or weaker or anyone unable to defend themselves. DD knew this as well. He advised DS to never strike out physically unless he was hit first...then you have the right to defend yourself and NEVER hit your sister. Neither DS or DD suffer from any violent or anti-social tendencies. If you met them they would treat you with kindness and courtesy, you'd be made to feel comfortable around them and welcomed. We're proud of the way we raised them. We did what we felt was right. And we did it in agreement. And yes, we took from traditional male and female points of view. Flame away............ And you did a great job raising your children. But I know lots of men who would never hit a woman that were raised in more traditional ways. I don't think we have to soften men just to make them good people. They should be taught manners, to never hit first, no means no, etc. We can do that by being parents. Not by telling men that they have to change who they are...I like men just the way they are
Where I disagree with you is on "never hit your sister". I believe a man should never hit anyone first, but if a female hits him first she deserves what she gets back. Women shouldn't be hitting, either.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 20, 2017 9:34:07 GMT -5
So they are less likely to become psychopaths, sadists, assholes, or have other deep character flaws? So, if a bunch of men got together and held a conference or academic symposium on how women can stop being bitches, you don't think that would raise any eyebrows or blowback? I would say if you think that would be the equivalent to the initiatives the article you posted is bashing, you don't know what you are talking about.
I clicked through a couple links in opinion piece you posted and actually got to a story on the Duke "Men's Project". It is sponsored by the women's center - but the creator of the Duke Men's project? Andrew. The leadership team? Conor, Tanner, Alex and Dipro. It's a 9 week program with learning sessions facilitated by men for men. They also apparently planned to host monthly sessions open to either gender. It is not a bunch of women sitting around bashing men.
If you cannot be bothered to read past a click-bait hate piece written by a guy trying to peddle his own book This Will Make a Man of You, why are you bothering to discuss the topic?
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naughtybear
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Post by naughtybear on Jan 20, 2017 9:56:50 GMT -5
Brave imawino, what that group is trying to accomplish isn't anywhere close to what Phoniex comaparision and that comparision is laughable really.
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