Slowly Going Back Into Debt (Update/Trigger Warning #420)

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 15:40:10 GMT -5 Poptart said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:30:40 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Um no. That is not what I said or basically implied or however you chose to put those words in my mouth. I pointed out that this is not your everyday situation. There are a lot of other things going on or having gone on in the past. And no, she doesn't deserve to be taken less seriously than anyone else. A child is a child and should be protected by adults, particularly their parents. But Shan doesn't know what happened exactly, just what she believes. And you're right, she can't have all she wants and is screwed no matter what. And you can think she should do what you say all you want. It doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for Poptart. We don't know them nor all the facts. So rushing to the decision that Shan is an unfit mother is a little unfair as well, is it not?

I think it would be terribly unfair of Shannen to keep Poptart and maintain a relationship with the person that Poptart claims hurt her, I think its even a little bit selfish, and in a perfect world there would be another family willing to take Poptart in, but given her age and issues the odds are against her and I hate that that's the case. I don't know what the solution here is and I feel really bad for Shannen because if she stays with C life is not going to be easy and if everything that's happening is based on false accusations it just sucks that much more.

You can think all you want. I can think what I want. It doesn't matter. Shan hasn't asked for advice on what to do. She didn't even have to tell us what was going on. She's already in enough emotional turmoil without random people on the internet telling her that she's doing a disservice to her child and that she's selfish. No matter what choice she makes, somebody gets hurt.

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 15:59:52 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:40:10 GMT -5 Poptart said:

I think it would be terribly unfair of Shannen to keep Poptart and maintain a relationship with the person that Poptart claims hurt her, I think its even a little bit selfish, and in a perfect world there would be another family willing to take Poptart in, but given her age and issues the odds are against her and I hate that that's the case. I don't know what the solution here is and I feel really bad for Shannen because if she stays with C life is not going to be easy and if everything that's happening is based on false accusations it just sucks that much more.

You can think all you want. I can think what I want. It doesn't matter. Shan hasn't asked for advice on what to do. She didn't even have to tell us what was going on. She's already in enough emotional turmoil without random people on the internet telling her that she's doing a disservice to her child and that she's selfish. No matter what choice she makes, somebody gets hurt.

I'll do that, thanks.

[seriousthistime]

Aug 10, 2017 14:57:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

kids in Poptarts situation are most likely to be abused. They are also most likely to make up a story about being abused. If she's been abused her whole life, and has been left behind every time things get tough, she is likely to sabotage relationships.

I don't know if C did it or not. It doesn't matter to me. It's just a shitty situation for all involved.

  And I think we can all agree that shanendoah has some very tough choices to make. 

Hugs, shanendoah.  BIG hugs.  I hope you have a good support network of family/friends who are there for you to lean on when you need it.  

[Shooby]

These are serious matters with serious consequences.  And, there is much we don't know or understand and can't know and understand from a message board.  I hope you can find peace and that everyone involved can move forward.

[shanendoah]

I am going to ask everyone to try to remain civil to each other, even those of you who are trying to protect me. I absolutely appreciate it, but I also understand what I am doing when I open up about something like this on a public (if anonymous) board. I think things like this are very important to talk about.

I think one of the issues here is that people are "white spacing" (ie guessing) at how the allegations were made/came about. And all I can tell you about that is that you are wrong. I will also say that Pop Tart's story has NOT remained the same over the last year. It changed dramatically. If it hadn't, a plea C was willing to accept never would have been offered.
What I will tell you is that the allegations have been taken seriously from the beginning. Pop Tart was removed from our home instantly and has not been back. C was arrested. He had a $200,000 bail set. (Bail bond, we paid $16k and had to put our house up as collateral.)
And one of the reasons C decided to take the plea deal is that a victim's mental health history or history of previous trauma is not allowable in court, even if it is relevant. And we do not disagree with that. One of the hardest things for me was all the professionals asking me at the beginning if Pop Tart had a diagnosed attachment disorder. I got the impression that if I had said yes, none of them would have believed the allegations, and then I couldn't help but think how tempting of a kid with a diagnosed attachment disorder would look to an abuser. 
I wish our system would take allegations of adult women regarding sexual assault as seriously and conscientiously as it took Pop Tart's allegations.

One of the difficult, existential parts of this process has been reconciling our beliefs on social justice with the reality of our situation. Am I grateful that we were able to come up with bail? Absolutely. But how is it reasonable to say that it is okay for someone to be "free" if they can come up with (convince someone else to come up with) $200,000, but that it is not okay for them to be free if they don't have that kind of money? 


Miss Tequila - Technically, the state has been illegally discriminating against me because I am an adoptive parent. The law says that as soon as the adoption was finalized, the law would see me exactly the same as a biological parent, but what the law says and how people react are two different things. It also doesn't help that we have had some very high profile cases in our state of foster and adoptive parents abusing kids. So the state goes into a cover their a** mode, because we were approved by the state to be parents, and now the kid is saying this...

I am not trying to force Pop Tart to come home. I am trying to make sure she is in the best place she can be going forward. And we don't have that yet. 
As for the idea of a clean slate, there's no such thing. Before a child in the foster care system is placed in a new home, that home gets all the information the state has about the child. They come in with the parents knowing as much as the state knows. And, even without that, there's no such thing as a clean slate for a child with Pop Tart's history of trauma, because that trauma travels with her. Her issues don't automatically go away because she's in a new home (no matter how much people would like to think they will). 
And, no, I am not saying living with me would be the ideal situation, but an ideal situation no longer exists for Pop Tart. 
I may not be able to honestly say I believe her allegations (I did have one professional suggest that perhaps I lie about that), but I can honestly say that I love her, and that I love her no matter what. And that I will do everything in my power to keep her safe. That I am willing to fight with her about homework and chores and house rules and still have her live in my house. That I will not walk away when things get difficult. That I am a permanent resource in her life.

And right now, there's no one else in Pop Tart's life who is willing to say that.
So yeah, coming home to me, if that were to happen (and it won't happen without a lot of family therapy) is not the ideal. But there is no ideal. There is simply figuring out the best choice of our very limited options.

[raeoflyte]

Aug 10, 2017 16:33:39 GMT -5 seriousthistime said:

Aug 10, 2017 14:57:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

kids in Poptarts situation are most likely to be abused. They are also most likely to make up a story about being abused. If she's been abused her whole life, and has been left behind every time things get tough, she is likely to sabotage relationships.

I don't know if C did it or not. It doesn't matter to me. It's just a shitty situation for all involved.

  And I think we can all agree that shanendoah has some very tough choices to make. 

Hugs, shanendoah.  BIG hugs.  I hope you have a good support network of family/friends who are there for you to lean on when you need it.  

[lund]

Aug 10, 2017 14:57:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

kids in Poptarts situation are most likely to be abused. They are also most likely to make up a story about being abused. If she's been abused her whole life, and has been left behind every time things get tough, she is likely to sabotage relationships.

I wish you strength, and hope that you have a lot of friends and family supporting you in this difficult situation.

[shanendoah]

I will say I have an amazing group of RL friends and family who have been incredibly supportive from day 1.

[Deleted]

I'm not afraid of expressing my opinion.  This is a terrible situation, and I admire how you are trying to keep it together. 

You believe one or the other.  

If you believe your husband, he is being done a terrible wrong.  He is being forced to go to jail for something he didn't do.  He took the punishment to save the family from ruin.  When he gets out, it is possible that you two can no longer live together as man and wife for 5 years.  There may always be a restraining order between him and Poptart.  

If you believe your daughter, she has been terribly wronged.  She has been abused, and you still defend her abuser.  Sure, you "love" her but not enough to choose to believe her over him.  Why should she trust you?  If she tells you some guy raped her, you may choose not to believe her about that as well.

You are kidding yourself when you say C. still loves Poptart.  Maybe now at least in words, but it won't last.  Based on what happened, he and she can never have a relationship again.  If he is innocent and loses you and all possibility of a real family life, he will come to resent her.   If he is guilty, he will also resent losing you and all possibility of a real family life because of what happened.  He will come to resent hereither way  if he doesn't now.  He is human, not a martyr.  Don't require that of him.

I am a minority here, but I think the core relationship is not mother/child but husband/wife.  That certainly isn't true if your spouse is abusing the children or if your child has extraordinary needs.  But you don't think that is what happened.  Children grow up and move on.  If you don't have a strong core relationship with your spouse, your marriage will then fall about when they grow up.  You have weakened that core relationship with the idea that your child's needs are more important than your husband's.  B.S. if you believe him.  Your husband is going to jail because of this.  If the accusations are indeed false, he is paying a horrible price.  You are contemplating marginalizing him in order to allow Poptart living with you. Wow.

Poptart is a troubled young girl, but you can't let her get away with this.  This again assumes that you believe your husband.  You cannot allow her to destroy him.  To do so means you don't really believe him.  

Poptart has issues, but quit making excuses for her.  Either she is telling the truth, in which case you try to make it up to her and kick your husband to the curb.  Or she is lying.  Even though she is a child, she understands lying.  She understands what she has done.  Either she is lying about what happened, or she is not.  You can tell yourself she misunderstood and so reported it erroneously, but she hasn't taken back that accusation.  She's standing behind it.  So she is telling the truth or not.

My point is that you aren't doing the right thing by either of them.  You need to figure out who you believe and make that primary.  If you believe your husband, you two become one again.  Poptart can be still be loved, but she is no longer a part of that core relationship.  You accept that she took herself out, rightly or wrongly.  If you believe her, you accept that your husband is not who you think he is.

I know you don't care about my opinion.  I accept that.  But you are doing neither of them any favors.  They are both being destroyed by your choice to play both sides.

[TheHaitian]

Aug 7, 2017 9:15:41 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Things will be finalized tomorrow. I'll update here when I have the emotional energy to do so.

Hope you are ok... ((hugs))

[whoisjohngalt]

Thank you for sharing shanendoah and opening this conversation.

I was wondering, more as a general question, so if anyone else knows (swamp ) - if the accuser changes the story through out the investigation, doesn't that puts major doubts into the story? And wouldn't it make the accused to be seen as not guilty?

Also, to @bamafan1954 point - believing both parties is mutually exclusive in this situation. Do any of the therapists or anyone else suggested that it would be possible to keep relationship with both?

[Sharon]

I keep thinking of an old saying- The child who needs the most love is sometimes the hardest one to love.

[TheHaitian]

OP, I am so sorry you are going through this.

I remember when we were going through fertility treatments and paying for it out of the nose (still paying for it ---> hello credit card debt) someone suggested why didn't we just adopt.

Your story and many stories like yours are why adopting/fostering were never an option or on the table for my wife.

You are one brace woman and I command you. But I am sorry to say I have to agree with other posters that state you are holding on to two strings that will never be re-connected an eventually for your own sanity you will need to pick one.

At the end of the day you will have to say goodbye and close the book on someone you love or risk losing them both by trying to hold on to both.

Imagine you are on a boat and both your husband and daughter are drowning and you can only save one, because by the time you try to save one they other would have drown. Do nothing they both drown, save one and the other one drown.

This is your situation: you need to pick, make your peace with it and move on.

You are an a impossible situation and my heart ache for you. No solution will be easy but prolonging it will tear you to pieces. By the time your husband gets out it will be in your family best interest for a decision to be reached: divorce papers and stand by the restraining order or relinquish your parental rights and pray for her.

And my suggestion would have been the same if she was your biological child.

[muttleynfelix]

I want to just send my hugs and love to you Shanen. I can't imagine and have no other words for you.

[dee27]

Shane,

You have an important decision to make, and I hope you have the resolve to either pick a life with C or one with Pop Tart because the family unit is now fractured. With therapy, Pop Tart may improve, but if she lied about the situation, how can you trust her and how will you justify that she ruined C's life? He will be labeled as a child molester and a registered sex offender so finding employment and housing will be difficult. I pray you have the strength to make the right choice for your family. Hugs for all of you.

[Deleted]

Will he have to register since part of his plea is being allowed to maintain his innocence? 

Thinking of you Shane. 

[dee27]

Oped,


Penalties in Addition to Jail or Prison

A person convicted of a sex crime also will face penalties other than jail or prison. Sex offenders normally are required to undergo treatment either in jail or prison or as a condition of probation.

Sexual offender registration

Every state in the U.S. has a sex offender registration and notification program. Sex offender registry statutes require that a person convicted of a sex offense register with the sex offender registry in whatever state he lives in. A sex offense requiring registration is any crime that includes sexual penetration or sexual contact as an element.

Registration as a sex offender requires a person to have his name, address and information about his crime on file with the registry. Some or all of that information is available to the public and every state has a sex offender web site that the public can search.


www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Sexual-Assault.htm

[cronewitch]

Sorry for your family's problems, good luck figuring out what to do next.

[Deleted]

Dee, I know what the register is, thanks. I wasn't sure of the exact nature of the plea and whether it would require registration.

[Opti]

Aug 11, 2017 0:58:11 GMT -5 oped said:

Dee, I know what the register is, thanks. I wasn't sure of the exact nature of the plea and whether it would require registration.

I think it does. In at least two of the links I posted, the fathers took the same type of plea deal and both were on the registry.

[shanendoah]

Hey gang. I am going to ask either Blonde Granny or Jaguar to go ahead and lock this thread.

I want everyone to know it has NOTHING to do with any of you, your comments or your questions. It very much has to do with my mental health.
I am having a hard enough time sleeping as it is right now, and last night I found my brain hamster wheeling over this thread, writing responses to your questions, trying to figure out what more I could say or not say, and around 4am, even planning this post. Over the last year, I've developed a number of methods for dealing with the hamster wheel brain, and honestly, last night none of them were working.

This is probably my fault for going ahead and bringing this out in the open so soon after C entered jail, when I am again dealing with changes to sleep and life patterns, and just being in emotional turmoil. And part of it is kind of reliving all these decisions that have been made (and remade), and gone over with the professionals, etc, as I bring this story to a new group of people. Combining the two was just a really bad idea.

I appreciate all the support I have been shown on this thread (and the board in general). I appreciate the honesty of all the posters here and their willingness to engage (mostly) politely about an incredibly difficult subject. I do believe conversations like this are necessary, in general. But this one in particular has become detrimental to me in the moment.

For the next bit, I will probably remain active only on the NS/CS and WIRR threads, as I work on tracking spending and tackling the debt.

Thanks again for your understanding and very real friendship, even if we've never met.

-shanendoah

[debthaven]

Hugs to you Shan. I hope you can find some degree of peace as you work your way through this.

[andi9899]

Good luck, Shan. I really hope everything works out for you the best it can.

[taz157]

Aug 11, 2017 8:42:39 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Hugs to you Shan. I hope you can find some degree of peace as you work your way through this.

Yeah that.

[midjd]

Thread locked per OP request.