Slowly Going Back Into Debt (Update/Trigger Warning #420)

[shanendoah]

Miss Tequila - For the record - I have chosen Pop Tart. I have chosen Pop Tart every step of the way, with the one exception that I refused to presume guilt on C's behalf. He moved out of the house. I have stated over and over again that I would never put her in a situation that could cause the no contact order to be violated, etc, etc, etc.
However, per arguments in court, as far as the state is concerned, refusing to presume C's guilt is a worse offense than if I were neglecting/abusing my child due to my own illegal drug use. 
So I have chosen my daughter. The state doesn't care. And they don't care because she is adopted. If she were my biological child, she absolutely would have been returned to me. (I've been a foster parent. I've read the child histories and reports. I know.) It is incredibly frustrating.
But I agree with you. You choose the child, because they are a child. The adult can look after themself. But again, state involvement often means that my choices and decisions are ignored or overwritten, and there's nothing I can do about it.

buystoys - Believe it or not, I have talked to the social worker (and my lawyer) about what would need to happen for me to terminate parental rights (incredibly unlikely) or agree to a guardianship (actually likely in the right circumstances). One of those is a family that is committed to Pop Tart and that Pop Tart wants to be a part of. If there were a family like your sister and BIL fighting for Pop Tart, I could do that. But there's not, at least not right now, so there we are.
The state doesn't actually have grounds to force a termination of my parental rights because I haven't actually done anything illegal or done anything that would give them an argument for abandonment. So that would have to come from me.

[Miss Tequila]

Aug 10, 2017 12:46:33 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Miss Tequila - For the record - I have chosen Pop Tart. I have chosen Pop Tart every step of the way, with the one exception that I refused to presume guilt on C's behalf. He moved out of the house. I have stated over and over again that I would never put her in a situation that could cause the no contact order to be violated, etc, etc, etc.
However, per arguments in court, as far as the state is concerned, refusing to presume C's guilt is a worse offense than if I were neglecting/abusing my child due to my own illegal drug use. 
So I have chosen my daughter. The state doesn't care. And they don't care because she is adopted. If she were my biological child, she absolutely would have been returned to me. (I've been a foster parent. I've read the child histories and reports. I know.) It is incredibly frustrating.
But I agree with you. You choose the child, because they are a child. The adult can look after themself. But again, state involvement often means that my choices and decisions are ignored or overwritten, and there's nothing I can do about it.

buystoys - Believe it or not, I have talked to the social worker (and my lawyer) about what would need to happen for me to terminate parental rights (incredibly unlikely) or agree to a guardianship (actually likely in the right circumstances). One of those is a family that is committed to Pop Tart and that Pop Tart wants to be a part of. If there were a family like your sister and BIL fighting for Pop Tart, I could do that. But there's not, at least not right now, so there we are.
The state doesn't actually have grounds to force a termination of my parental rights because I haven't actually done anything illegal or done anything that would give them an argument for abandonment. So that would have to come from me.

Shan, I apologize if I sounded like I was saying you didn't....I was replying to other posts, not you or yours. 

it is frustrating that their are different rules because a child is adopted.  That makes zero sense to me.  Once that child is legally your child, what difference does biology make?

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 12:15:46 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Aug 10, 2017 12:14:02 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I don't disagree...but if she gave birth to poptart would we all want her to put up for adoption?  Because my understanding is that he will never be allowed back in that house if she is there (and I'm not a lawyer so I will definitely stand corrected if that is wrong). 

I can only come at it from the other direction.  If I were the one that was not allowed contact with my child, I would never want to stay with my husband and force my child into foster care.  What is best for me no longer matters.  It is the child that matters. 

I got the impression the current plan, if it's even that yet, is for C to still be a part of Shan's life,  but not living at the family home or interacting with Poptart.

It's my understanding that there isn't a plan just yet. She's trying to decide what the next step will be. She's screwed either way because both options she currently have suck.

[Poptart]

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I'm having such a hard time processing all of this that I couldn't even comment on it for almost 24 hours; I cannot fathom how you've dealt with it for a year. 
I'm incredibly sorry you've been put in this position. I know you're doing the best you can and using all of the resources available to you to make rational decisions.
I commend you for that--though I know that doesn't have much worth in this situation.

I'm going to stay out of the opinion portion of the conversation. I just have no way to form one. I selfishly want more information, but I completely understand why you aren't sharing any more than you have. 

Even the one that decided I'm a terrible, selfish person, with deep unrecognized psychological issues,

I realize that this person thinks it's his/her job to "decide" this, but I'm just aghast that anyone thinks that of you. Unless of course, your fictional writing skills are at Steven King's level and you've fooled us all for a decade. 

Hugs and prayers. 

[Miss Tequila]

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

I struggle with the above comment. I am really not going to comment specifically about Shan's situation because I don't know the details and it is none of my business.

Here is where I struggle. I was married for 20 years and with my ex for a total of 26 years. I can honestly say that I think he is a douchebag and I probably hate him on some levels. But the thing is, I can't see me ever believing that he molested anyone, let alone our children. Now, part of that might be a defense mechanism...but the other part is that I "know" this man inside and out.  In the end I would have my child's back but I sure as hell don't know if deep down I would ever truly believe it....on the flip side, I wouldn't ever truly know he was innocent.  I'm not sure I am making any sense here...just saying if I would struggle accepting it about my ex I can imagine struggling to accept it about someone you love.  Toss in the other issues and I can understand it. 

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

Have the people you've known that had it happen been deeply troubled children with significant traumas in their lives before the alleged abuse? Have they also falsely accused the mother of physical abuse? Have they also been bounced around the court system their whole lives never having seen a normal family or felt truly loved? Have they always had adults treat them like crap and then either leave or force them to leave? The situation isn't as black and white as you make it sound. You also don't know all the facts. Neither do we. So you can't say she's doing her a disservice because you don't know. Also, IIRC you don't even have children so you really have no basis for your opinion. And even if you did, Shan isn't asking for it. Feel free to pretend this thread doesn't exist.

[Opti]

Aug 10, 2017 12:31:21 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Opti - Believe it or not, I totally understand your point of view, and I even remember writing the above quote and what it was written about. And I still agree with it. But this is an incredibly different situation than the one that was being referenced above. Again, there is more to this situation than I can explain here. And again, I recognize that it may never be in Pop Tart's best interest to come back to live with me. That is absolutely NOT the same thing as it is in her best interest for me to walk out of her life completely. And I can tell you right now, that not a single expert that has been involved in this case, thinks it would be in Pop Tart's best interest for me to walk away completely. Even the one that decided I'm a terrible, selfish person, with deep unrecognized psychological issues, and thinks I should let someone else adopt Pop Tart, also thinks it is in Pop Tart's best interest for me to remain in her life in some capacity.
The fight I am in in regard to family court is not actually a fight about where Pop Tart lives, at least for me. It is about what is in Pop Tart's best interests. And there's a lot of stuff happening on that front that cannot be talked about here, that put us up in the air. There are ways this could fall out where what is in her best interest is just to have visits with me once a month or so. But there are also ways it could fall out that what is in her best interest is to move back in with me. This is not a binary situation. There are a number of factors involved, including what Pop Tart wants - she's old enough to have her own lawyer, so her wishes are represented in court - but also the realities of what it means to be a tween/teen in state care, all combined with recommendations from her therapist(s). And time. Because things change. And what the decision is for today is not necessarily what the decision for tomorrow will be.

I'm aware you can't tell us of everything nor should you. And thanks for seeing my POV. I would think differently if you told us you believed C was at fault that way.

The poster Poptart has a valid point though. Its going to be hard to do well by Pop Tart and C. If she did falsely accuse C, it will be a reward for her to live with you without C. She learns the right false accusations can pay off. If it isn't a false accusation, than its troublesome for the reason poster Poptart opines.

I did some quick research to see if anyone had ever falsely accused someone of sexual misconduct and then recanted to live happily ever after as family. I found nothing. I did find stories of children falsely accusing their parents of physical assault that worked out, but that seems to be part of the landscape for some children. I hope whatever presence you have in her life going forward is a positive.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Aug 10, 2017 13:28:33 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

I struggle with the above comment. I am really not going to comment specifically about Shan's situation because I don't know the details and it is none of my business.

Here is where I struggle. I was married for 20 years and with my ex for a total of 26 years. I can honestly say that I think he is a douchebag and I probably hate him on some levels. But the thing is, I can't see me ever believing that he molested anyone, let alone our children. Now, part of that might be a defense mechanism...but the other part is that I "know" this man inside and out.  In the end I would have my child's back but I sure as hell don't know if deep down I would ever truly believe it....on the flip side, I wouldn't ever truly know he was innocent.  I'm not sure I am making any sense here...just saying if I would struggle accepting it about my ex I can imagine struggling to accept it about someone you love.  Toss in the other issues and I can understand it. 

Yeah that's how i feel too.  It's been compounded by the high profile scandal that went on here.  I can imagine that the guy never imagined his father, who was also a highly respected pediatrician, himself was capable of molesting a child and not only that, harboring mssive amounts of child porn on his home computer.

I want to say I "know" DH but I would bet anything that the pediatrician "knew" his father.  I also want to say that I would know and 100% trust my child but my brain can't even begin to compute that type of situation.  I pray that I never have to.

All I know is it make me ill even in a hyopthetical discussion.

[Miss Tequila]

Aug 10, 2017 13:55:00 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:28:33 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I struggle with the above comment. I am really not going to comment specifically about Shan's situation because I don't know the details and it is none of my business.

Here is where I struggle. I was married for 20 years and with my ex for a total of 26 years. I can honestly say that I think he is a douchebag and I probably hate him on some levels. But the thing is, I can't see me ever believing that he molested anyone, let alone our children. Now, part of that might be a defense mechanism...but the other part is that I "know" this man inside and out.  In the end I would have my child's back but I sure as hell don't know if deep down I would ever truly believe it....on the flip side, I wouldn't ever truly know he was innocent.  I'm not sure I am making any sense here...just saying if I would struggle accepting it about my ex I can imagine struggling to accept it about someone you love.  Toss in the other issues and I can understand it. 

Yeah that's how i feel too.  It's been compounded by the high profile scandal that went on here.  I can imagine that the guy never imagined his father, who was also a highly respected pediatrician, himself was capable of molesting a child and not only that, harboring mssive amounts of child porn on his home computer.

I want to say I "know" DH but I would bet anything that the pediatrician "knew" his father.  I also want to say that I would know and 100% trust my child but my brain can't even begin to compute that type of situation.  I pray that I never have to.

All I know is it make me ill even in a hyopthetical discussion.

I actually have goose bumps just thinking about it. 

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 13:47:05 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

Have the people you've known that had it happen been deeply troubled children with significant traumas in their lives before the alleged abuse? Have they also falsely accused the mother of physical abuse? Have they also been bounced around the court system their whole lives never having seen a normal family or felt truly loved? Have they always had adults treat them like crap and then either leave or force them to leave? The situation isn't as black and white as you make it sound. You also don't know all the facts. Neither do we. So you can't say she's doing her a disservice because you don't know. Also, IIRC you don't even have children so you really have no basis for your opinion. And even if you did, Shan isn't asking for it. Feel free to pretend this thread doesn't exist.

See this is really shitty. That's why so many kids don't speak up about these things- especially those with troubled backgrounds, because people are less willing to take them seriously and its so easy for abusers to say "well look at her background, clearly she is troubled and can't be believed". It is absolutely possible that the child lied BUT she's kept her story up for a year and if there's even a chance that it did happen I don't see how Shannen can have a relationship with both her husband and the child, you just can't. 

[quince]

Poptart accused SHANE of physical abuse, and she is in the position to know without a doubt the veracity of the accusation. As it was found to be unfounded, I'm guessing it was a false accusation.

Being the victim of a false accusation really makes it unlikely I will believe an accusation against my life partner by the same person.    You have your kid's back and you get them out of the house and don't share space with the person they are accusing regardless of whether you believe them or not, but given those circumstances? Yeah, I'd not be believing to the point of turning my back entirely on my relationship with my partner.

[Miss Tequila]

Aug 10, 2017 14:04:03 GMT -5 Poptart said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:47:05 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Have the people you've known that had it happen been deeply troubled children with significant traumas in their lives before the alleged abuse? Have they also falsely accused the mother of physical abuse? Have they also been bounced around the court system their whole lives never having seen a normal family or felt truly loved? Have they always had adults treat them like crap and then either leave or force them to leave? The situation isn't as black and white as you make it sound. You also don't know all the facts. Neither do we. So you can't say she's doing her a disservice because you don't know. Also, IIRC you don't even have children so you really have no basis for your opinion. And even if you did, Shan isn't asking for it. Feel free to pretend this thread doesn't exist.

See this is really shitty. That's why so many kids don't speak up about these things- especially those with troubled backgrounds, because people are less willing to take them seriously and its so easy for abusers to say "well look at her background, clearly she is troubled and can't be believed". It is absolutely possible that the child lied BUT she's kept her story up for a year and if there's even a chance that it did happen I don't see how Shannen can have a relationship with both her husband and the child, you just can't. 

And I can also totally understand exactly what you are saying. Truth of the matter is that no one will ever know for sure what happened...and that's the sucky part. Obviously one of them is lying and you are right, because of her daughter's troubled past, it is very easy to assume it is her.

I'm so sorry Shan that you are in this horrible position.

I'm going to stop posting because this is really none of my business and I don't think all of us giving our opinions helpful to Shan. 

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 14:04:03 GMT -5 Poptart said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:47:05 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Have the people you've known that had it happen been deeply troubled children with significant traumas in their lives before the alleged abuse? Have they also falsely accused the mother of physical abuse? Have they also been bounced around the court system their whole lives never having seen a normal family or felt truly loved? Have they always had adults treat them like crap and then either leave or force them to leave? The situation isn't as black and white as you make it sound. You also don't know all the facts. Neither do we. So you can't say she's doing her a disservice because you don't know. Also, IIRC you don't even have children so you really have no basis for your opinion. And even if you did, Shan isn't asking for it. Feel free to pretend this thread doesn't exist.

See this is really shitty. That's why so many kids don't speak up about these things- especially those with troubled backgrounds, because people are less willing to take them seriously and its so easy for abusers to say "well look at her background, clearly she is troubled and can't be believed". It is absolutely possible that the child lied BUT she's kept her story up for a year and if there's even a chance that it did happen I don't see how Shannen can have a relationship with both her husband and the child, you just can't. 

Did I say that she shouldn't be believed because she's had a rough life? I said you don't know all the facts to know that Shan is doing her a disservice. I also pointed out that you don't have children thus could not even fathom what should happen if your child came to you and said that. Hell, I have two of them and can't even imagine. So before you go putting words in someone's mouth or deciding that someone is unfit, perhaps have all the facts. Wait, you're not going to get all the facts about this. So maybe keep your opinion to yourself. Either support her or don't either way is your prerogative. But as a mother it seriously pisses me off to hear someone give unsolicited parenting advice. Particularly one without children.

[andi9899]

Shan, I really hope that there is a solution that works for all involved. I also hope that you find peace with whatever decision you make. I can't even imagine.

[Opti]

Sexual abuse is wrong and I think we all are against it. I have rarely thought about the other side of it, false accusations, until this thread. Pop Tart is being protected from C, but if C is innocent, he will be dealing with the fallout for the rest of his life.

I'm finding some links now.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/10/29/son-falsely-accuses-father-of-sexual-abuse-spends-life-trying-to-undo-the-damage/?utm_term=.0c2a97b09c40

Son falsely accuses father of sexual abuse, spends life trying to undo the damage...

But Earnest Leap was eventually named the primary custodial parent. So Brodie says his mother continued to push.

“Have you been touched down there?”

The answer that Brodie Leap finally uttered, and which for the past eight years he has declared in affidavits he felt hounded to give, continues to haunt the life of his father, who both Leap brothers attest has been the most supportive and positive force in their lives.

According to the Star piece, Leap took an Alford plea, which allowed him to maintain his innocence, but had the effect of a conviction. He says he did it to spare his son the pain of having to testify against him. He was sentenced to three years. But that was before the creation of these sex offender lists, which were then applied retroactively. His life has been hell ever since.

[taz157]

Aug 10, 2017 14:12:42 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Shan, I really hope that there is a solution that works for all involved. I also hope that you find peace with whatever decision you make. I can't even imagine.

Yeah that. ((((Hugs))))

[Opti]

A couple more links for those who are interested.

www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/falsely-accused-of-sexual-assault_us_55b27a66e4b0a13f9d1869b7

(Why a woman accused her Dad of sexual assault when she was a minor.)

www.esquire.com/news-politics/a54715/ray-spencer-false-sexual-abuse-accusation/

(Tough story.)

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 14:10:44 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 14:04:03 GMT -5 Poptart said:

See this is really shitty. That's why so many kids don't speak up about these things- especially those with troubled backgrounds, because people are less willing to take them seriously and its so easy for abusers to say "well look at her background, clearly she is troubled and can't be believed". It is absolutely possible that the child lied BUT she's kept her story up for a year and if there's even a chance that it did happen I don't see how Shannen can have a relationship with both her husband and the child, you just can't. 

Did I say that she shouldn't be believed because she's had a rough life? I said you don't know all the facts to know that Shan is doing her a disservice. I also pointed out that you don't have children thus could not even fathom what should happen if your child came to you and said that. Hell, I have two of them and can't even imagine. So before you go putting words in someone's mouth or deciding that someone is unfit, perhaps have all the facts. Wait, you're not going to get all the facts about this. So maybe keep your opinion to yourself. Either support her or don't either way is your prerogative. But as a mother it seriously pisses me off to hear someone give unsolicited parenting advice. Particularly one without children.

You basically implied that because this child has had a troubled background she's more prone to making up stories and this could be true, but its also true that children who have been victims are often hurt over and over because they are thought to be easy prey and because people are less willing to believe them. It is also true that most kids are abused not by strangers but rather by jolly uncle Bob who can't keep his hands to himself. Also, you do realize you're on an open forum, right? You don't get to tell me what I can and can not say, if you don't like my opinion you're more than free to ignore my posts.

[NastyWoman]

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

Taking this out from Shane's situation for a moment: Poptart , you are looking at only one side of the coin here. How would (the theoretical) you feel if you, at age 13, had gone to your mother claiming abuse by your father, she believed you and your family was destroyed. Yet for whatever reason what you told your mom was not true. And now you are 17 and missing that life that could have been. Would you let your mom of the hook because she believed you? Or might you be mad at her because she didn't even try to look at all sides, all people involved whom she should have known? In other words, mom should have known better and therefore she is at least as guilty as you are for breaking up the family.

There are no easy answer here, there are not even hard but definitely correct answers. And so yes, it is possible that C was inappropriate, but it is just as possible that Pop Tart was not telling the truth for whatever reason.  Shane is straddling the fence as best she can and from what she has shared it looks like C is as well.  Who knows sometime in the future when Pop Tart is an adult, things will work themselves out. I sure hope so for the sale of all three of them.

[swamp]

kids in Poptarts situation are most likely to be abused. They are also most likely to make up a story about being abused. If she's been abused her whole life, and has been left behind every time things get tough, she is likely to sabotage relationships.

I don't know if C did it or not. It doesn't matter to me. It's just a shitty situation for all involved.

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 14:54:25 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

Taking this out from Shane's situation for a moment: Poptart , you are looking at only one side of the coin here. How would (the theoretical) you feel if you, at age 13, had gone to your mother claiming abuse by your father, she believed you and your family was destroyed. Yet for whatever reason what you told your mom was not true. And now you are 17 and missing that life that could have been. Would you let your mom of the hook because she believed you? Or might you be mad at her because she didn't even try to look at all sides, all people involved whom she should have known? In other words, mom should have known better and therefore she is at least as guilty as you are for breaking up the family.

There are no easy answer here, there are not even hard but definitely correct answers. And so yes, it is possible that C was inappropriate, but it is just as possible that Pop Tart was not telling the truth for whatever reason.  Shane is straddling the fence as best she can and from what she has shared it looks like C is as well.  Who knows sometime in the future when Pop Tart is an adult, things will work themselves out. I sure hope so for the sale of all three of them.

NastyWoman There is a possibility that Poptart lied, it could be because of past issues that have not been resolved, it could be mental issues that are starting to surface- for girls mental issues can start to show up at puberty. My real concern is that if  Shannen has chosen to believe her husband she really can't expect to have this child live with her- it's not fair for any of them and it is especially not fair to the child to live with someone that not only does not believe her but who chooses to maintain a relationship with the person that she says abused her. 

[suesinfl]

Aug 10, 2017 13:47:05 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 13:16:23 GMT -5 Poptart said:

This is a terrible situation for everyone involved but the truth is that you can't serve two masters. You have chosen to believe your husband over your child, I can't imagine going to my mother and telling her my father had molested me and have her believe him over me. I think you'd do a great disservice to Poptart if you continue to stay in her life, having known people that this has happened to having your family not believe you seems to cause as much pain as the actual abuse. And let's all be clear here, this child could have been abused and to have her live with the wife of the person that abused her blows. And it would blow even more to live with Shanen and know that she continues to have a relationship with her abuser, I think that would cause her so much mental damage that really it might be best to give her a shot to start over elsewhere.

Have the people you've known that had it happen been deeply troubled children with significant traumas in their lives before the alleged abuse? Have they also falsely accused the mother of physical abuse? Have they also been bounced around the court system their whole lives never having seen a normal family or felt truly loved? Have they always had adults treat them like crap and then either leave or force them to leave? The situation isn't as black and white as you make it sound. You also don't know all the facts. Neither do we. So you can't say she's doing her a disservice because you don't know. Also, IIRC you don't even have children so you really have no basis for your opinion. And even if you did, Shan isn't asking for it. Feel free to pretend this thread doesn't exist.

I'm glad that I read your post before I posted what I had written. You responded so much more eloquently than I would have. In fact I think I may have had my hand slapped.

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 14:34:51 GMT -5 Poptart said:

Aug 10, 2017 14:10:44 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Did I say that she shouldn't be believed because she's had a rough life? I said you don't know all the facts to know that Shan is doing her a disservice. I also pointed out that you don't have children thus could not even fathom what should happen if your child came to you and said that. Hell, I have two of them and can't even imagine. So before you go putting words in someone's mouth or deciding that someone is unfit, perhaps have all the facts. Wait, you're not going to get all the facts about this. So maybe keep your opinion to yourself. Either support her or don't either way is your prerogative. But as a mother it seriously pisses me off to hear someone give unsolicited parenting advice. Particularly one without children.

You basically implied that because this child has had a troubled background she's more prone to making up stories and this could be true, but its also true that children who have been victims are often hurt over and over because they are thought to be easy prey and because people are less willing to believe them. It is also true that most kids are abused not by strangers but rather by jolly uncle Bob who can't keep his hands to himself. Also, you do realize you're on an open forum, right? You don't get to tell me what I can and can not say, if you don't like my opinion you're more than free to ignore my posts.

Yet you get to tell me what I actually mean when I didn't say that? That's rich. That's just what you think I'm saying. You know what they say about assumption.

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 15:13:33 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 14:34:51 GMT -5 Poptart said:

You basically implied that because this child has had a troubled background she's more prone to making up stories and this could be true, but its also true that children who have been victims are often hurt over and over because they are thought to be easy prey and because people are less willing to believe them. It is also true that most kids are abused not by strangers but rather by jolly uncle Bob who can't keep his hands to himself. Also, you do realize you're on an open forum, right? You don't get to tell me what I can and can not say, if you don't like my opinion you're more than free to ignore my posts.

Yet you get to tell me what I actually mean when I didn't say that? That's rich. That's just what you think I'm saying. You know what they say about assumption.

No lady, that is what you said. The fact that someone has endured trauma in the past does not mean that they get to be ignored or taken less seriously when they report abuse. Could she have lied? Yes, of course. But if she did not lie it would be horrible to send her to live in a household with someone who not only does not believe her but who continues to have a relationship with the person she claims abused her. Shannen can't split herself in two and can not be fair to both parties in this situation, it is just not possible which sucks because she loves both of them, which is why I think it would be best to give Poptart a clean slate. 

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 15:22:10 GMT -5 Poptart said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:13:33 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Yet you get to tell me what I actually mean when I didn't say that? That's rich. That's just what you think I'm saying. You know what they say about assumption.

No lady, that is what you said. The fact that someone has endured trauma in the past does not mean that they get to be ignored or taken less seriously when they report abuse. Could she have lied? Yes, of course. But if she did not lie it would be horrible to send her to live in a household with someone who not only does not believe her but who continues to have a relationship with the person she claims abused her. Shannen can't split herself in two and can not be fair to both parties in this situation, it is just not possible which sucks because she loves both of them, which is why I think it would be best to give Poptart a clean slate. 

Um no. That is not what I said or basically implied or however you chose to put those words in my mouth. I pointed out that this is not your everyday situation. There are a lot of other things going on or having gone on in the past. And no, she doesn't deserve to be taken less seriously than anyone else. A child is a child and should be protected by adults, particularly their parents. But Shan doesn't know what happened exactly, just what she believes. And you're right, she can't have all she wants and is screwed no matter what. And you can think she should do what you say all you want. It doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for Poptart. We don't know them nor all the facts. So rushing to the decision that Shan is an unfit mother is a little unfair as well, is it not?

[Opti]

Aug 10, 2017 15:30:40 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:22:10 GMT -5 Poptart said:

No lady, that is what you said. The fact that someone has endured trauma in the past does not mean that they get to be ignored or taken less seriously when they report abuse. Could she have lied? Yes, of course. But if she did not lie it would be horrible to send her to live in a household with someone who not only does not believe her but who continues to have a relationship with the person she claims abused her. Shannen can't split herself in two and can not be fair to both parties in this situation, it is just not possible which sucks because she loves both of them, which is why I think it would be best to give Poptart a clean slate. 

Um no. That is not what I said or basically implied or however you chose to put those words in my mouth. I pointed out that this is not your everyday situation. There are a lot of other things going on or having gone on in the past. And no, she doesn't deserve to be taken less seriously than anyone else. A child is a child and should be protected by adults, particularly their parents. But Shan doesn't know what happened exactly, just what she believes. And you're right, she can't have all she wants and is screwed no matter what. And you can think she should do what you say all you want. It doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for Poptart. We don't know them nor all the facts. So rushing to the decision that Shan is an unfit mother is a little unfair as well, is it not?

That's harsh and assuming. She did not say she was an unfit mother.

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 15:30:40 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:22:10 GMT -5 Poptart said:

No lady, that is what you said. The fact that someone has endured trauma in the past does not mean that they get to be ignored or taken less seriously when they report abuse. Could she have lied? Yes, of course. But if she did not lie it would be horrible to send her to live in a household with someone who not only does not believe her but who continues to have a relationship with the person she claims abused her. Shannen can't split herself in two and can not be fair to both parties in this situation, it is just not possible which sucks because she loves both of them, which is why I think it would be best to give Poptart a clean slate. 

Um no. That is not what I said or basically implied or however you chose to put those words in my mouth. I pointed out that this is not your everyday situation. There are a lot of other things going on or having gone on in the past. And no, she doesn't deserve to be taken less seriously than anyone else. A child is a child and should be protected by adults, particularly their parents. But Shan doesn't know what happened exactly, just what she believes. And you're right, she can't have all she wants and is screwed no matter what. And you can think she should do what you say all you want. It doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for Poptart. We don't know them nor all the facts. So rushing to the decision that Shan is an unfit mother is a little unfair as well, is it not?

I think it would be terribly unfair of Shannen to keep Poptart and maintain a relationship with the person that Poptart claims hurt her, I think its even a little bit selfish, and in a perfect world there would be another family willing to take Poptart in, but given her age and issues the odds are against her and I hate that that's the case. I don't know what the solution here is and I feel really bad for Shannen because if she stays with C life is not going to be easy and if everything that's happening is based on false accusations it just sucks that much more.

[andi9899]

Aug 10, 2017 15:33:59 GMT -5 Opti said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:30:40 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Um no. That is not what I said or basically implied or however you chose to put those words in my mouth. I pointed out that this is not your everyday situation. There are a lot of other things going on or having gone on in the past. And no, she doesn't deserve to be taken less seriously than anyone else. A child is a child and should be protected by adults, particularly their parents. But Shan doesn't know what happened exactly, just what she believes. And you're right, she can't have all she wants and is screwed no matter what. And you can think she should do what you say all you want. It doesn't matter. What matters is what's best for Poptart. We don't know them nor all the facts. So rushing to the decision that Shan is an unfit mother is a little unfair as well, is it not?

That's harsh and assuming. She did not say she was an unfit mother.

Yeah. I must have misinterpreted "it's a disservice to keep her with you and maintain a relationship with her abuser and you should let her go" stuff.

[Poptart]

Aug 10, 2017 15:49:31 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Aug 10, 2017 15:33:59 GMT -5 Opti said:

That's harsh and assuming. She did not say she was an unfit mother.

Yeah. I must have misinterpreted "it's a disservice to keep her with you and maintain a relationship with her abuser and you should let her go" stuff.

It is a disservice and she should let her go if she chooses to stay with her husband.