I don't get where God fits in??

[toshmanta]

I am trying to find out from those who accept evolution( common descent and natural selection ) as the mechanism and explanation for the diversity of life, just where exactly did God get involved in the process, it baffles me.

Genetic mutation is random, evolution has no foresight, some mutations are good for survival and some are bad for survival, both are determined by the environment,therefore humans are a result of a blind process. In fact humans would not have evolved had the dinosaurs not become extinct some 65 million years ago thereby changing the environment for small mammals to thrive and diversify.

Now if an omniscient and all powerful God had created life and designed evolution then why bother with the dinosaurs in the first place, if humans were his/her/it special purpose then why not just skip the dinosaurs and the comet that killed them?

Natural selection is a rather brutal mechanism, basically the weak get eaten before they can reproduce, rather odd for an all loving God, it would have been far nicer to just speak humans into existence.

It seems to me the evidence contradicts humans were intelligently designed, in my esteemed opinion a process that  killed off 90% of all species and gave us intelligence is evidence of evolution not God.

I am actually interested in having a chat with anyone who has an idea where God got involved to specifically create humans in his image.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I believe that God sparked the whole thing off and we're actually a lab experiment. I have issues with the omniscient part.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I believe that God sparked the whole thing off and we're actually a lab experiment. I have issues with the omniscient part.

A designer without a design is an interesting contradiction, if true seems rather pointless to just throw dice randomly, hardly promotes an intention to create humans.

[Shooby]

Well, i don't believe in Evolution.  Each species was created AFTER It's OWN KIND.  That's pretty clear to me.  And God creates depth and richness and detail.  So of course there are many other animals, plants, sea life, etc in addition to man.  God created a vast and beautiful universe.  So, dinosaurs were a part of that.  Not sure why that would some be surprising.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 14:58:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Well, i don't believe in Evolution.  Each species was created AFTER It's OWN KIND.  That's pretty clear to me.  And God creates depth and richness and detail.  So of course there are many other animals, plants, sea life, etc in addition to man.  God created a vast and beautiful universe.  So, dinosaurs were a part of that.  Not sure why that would some be surprising.

Not quite sure what " each species was created after it's own kind " actually means?

If it means you think God created each species individually then why did he create dinosaurs 200 million years ago but humans only 200,000 years ago?

If you think we come from our own kind then i agree, we share over 96%  of our DNA with primates.

Shooby, denying evolution is silly and i know you are not stupid.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 14:58:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Well, i don't believe in Evolution.  Each species was created AFTER It's OWN KIND.  That's pretty clear to me.  And God creates depth and richness and detail.  So of course there are many other animals, plants, sea life, etc in addition to man.  God created a vast and beautiful universe.  So, dinosaurs were a part of that.  Not sure why that would some be surprising.

What does that mean and where's your proof?

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 15:16:13 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 14:58:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Well, i don't believe in Evolution.  Each species was created AFTER It's OWN KIND.  That's pretty clear to me.  And God creates depth and richness and detail.  So of course there are many other animals, plants, sea life, etc in addition to man.  God created a vast and beautiful universe.  So, dinosaurs were a part of that.  Not sure why that would some be surprising.

Not quite sure what " each species was created after it's own kind " actually means?

If it means you think God created each species individually then why did he create dinosaurs 200 million years ago but humans only 200,000 years ago?

If you think we come from our own kind then i agree, we share over 96%  of our DNA with primates.

Shooby, denying evolution is silly and i know you are not stupid.

Shooby has always denied evolution.

[Waffle]

I neither believe or don't in the theory of evolution. My education is sorely lacking where evolution is concerned. there were mentions of the
scopes monkey trial in a few classes. I just don't know enough about it and I guess I don't really care. But, if God is all powerful why couldn't he be responsible for evolution?

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:27:21 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nov 19, 2016 15:16:13 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Not quite sure what " each species was created after it's own kind " actually means?

If it means you think God created each species individually then why did he create dinosaurs 200 million years ago but humans only 200,000 years ago?

If you think we come from our own kind then i agree, we share over 96%  of our DNA with primates.

Shooby, denying evolution is silly and i know you are not stupid.

Shooby has always denied evolution.

Creationism is an industry,some are making many millions out of it, quite shameful really.

[Shooby]

Nov 19, 2016 15:26:23 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nov 19, 2016 14:58:18 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Well, i don't believe in Evolution.  Each species was created AFTER It's OWN KIND.  That's pretty clear to me.  And God creates depth and richness and detail.  So of course there are many other animals, plants, sea life, etc in addition to man.  God created a vast and beautiful universe.  So, dinosaurs were a part of that.  Not sure why that would some be surprising.

What does that mean and where's your proof?

The proof is in the POOF.  You know that magic Poof where NOTHING poofed into Everything?  Let's go back to the POOF.  My POOF is driven by God.  God who exists outside of Creation.  God who is Eternal and always was and always will be.  Your POOF was a poof of Nothing that created something out of Nothing.  Talk about nonsensical!

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 15:35:07 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 19, 2016 15:26:23 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

What does that mean and where's your proof?

The proof is in the POOF.  You know that magic Poof where NOTHING poofed into Everything?  Let's go back to the POOF.  My POOF is driven by God.  God who exists outside of Creation.  God who is Eternal and always was and always will be.  Your POOF was a poof of Nothing that created something out of Nothing.  Talk about nonsensical!

Sarah Palin, is that your word salad?

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:28:49 GMT -5 Waffle said:

I neither believe or don't in the theory of evolution. My education is sorely lacking where evolution is concerned. there were mentions of the
scopes monkey trial in a few classes. I just don't know enough about it and I guess I don't really care. But, if God is all powerful why couldn't he be responsible for evolution?

If he was all powerful.

a) Why not just make humans in one go?

b) Why bother with 2 billion years of death of the weakest?

c) Why plan for dinosaurs and then change the plan to facilitate the evolution of humans?

Apart from that the genetic mutations are random, why design harmful mutations?

Design simply does not make sense, evolution is a blind watchmaker.

[Shooby]

  OK, guess you can't really debate it then, can you?  When in doubt, resort to that.  

[weltschmerz]

I don't debate nonsense.
"The proof is in the poof, indeed!

[Shooby]

Nov 19, 2016 15:42:27 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I don't debate nonsense.
"The proof is in the poof, indeed!

I am quite serious.  You believe that there was NOTHING and that this nothing exploded into something.  So, if you are calling that nonsense, then i can't really help you.

[Shooby]

In order to establish GOD, we need to go to ground Zero.  What do you believe?  The very beginning point of the Universe.  We can argue about evolution or what happened after this or which God, etc.  But, First, we have to establish Ground Zero.  What happened?  After we do that, then we can move forward.  But, you won't.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:35:07 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 19, 2016 15:26:23 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

What does that mean and where's your proof?

The proof is in the POOF.  You know that magic Poof where NOTHING poofed into Everything?  Let's go back to the POOF.  My POOF is driven by God.  God who exists outside of Creation.  God who is Eternal and always was and always will be.  Your POOF was a poof of Nothing that created something out of Nothing.  Talk about nonsensical!

Not knowing how the universe or life began is not really relevant to the evidence that supports evolution. 

Speaking of evidence, there is none that such a thing as " nothing " exists in our out of our universe.maybe something is the only condition in town.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:46:05 GMT -5 Shooby said:

In order to establish GOD, we need to go to ground Zero.  What do you believe?  The very beginning point of the Universe.  We can argue about evolution or what happened after this or which God, etc.  But, First, we have to establish Ground Zero.  What happened?  After we do that, then we can move forward.  But, you won't.

Sorry Shooby, but we do not have to establish Ground Zero to discuss the evidence for evolution, why you make this bizarre condition is beyond me.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 15:44:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 19, 2016 15:42:27 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

I don't debate nonsense.
"The proof is in the poof, indeed!

I am quite serious.  You believe that there was NOTHING and that this nothing exploded into something.  So, if you are calling that nonsense, then i can't really help you.

First cause and evolution are two very different things.
One has nothing to do with the other.

[Shooby]

  Yes, we do.  We need to first establish God or No God.  If you can establish no God, then really what else is there to talk about other than random processes?   How did nothing become everything?  Isn't that the very essence?  But, you won't go there.  Instead we will just jump right past that to the chemical soup.  And, the chemical soup became an amoeba.  And, the amoeba grew into 2.  Then one grew a penis and crawled up onto land while the other simultaneously grew into vagina and they both just stumbled out of the soup and the male tripped and fell and landed on top of the female and thus the human race was born.  
  Funny but you never discuss any particulars.  You just talk in large, vague  terms.  lol

[Shooby]

Nov 19, 2016 15:51:39 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nov 19, 2016 15:44:06 GMT -5 Shooby said:

I am quite serious.  You believe that there was NOTHING and that this nothing exploded into something.  So, if you are calling that nonsense, then i can't really help you.

First cause and evolution are two very different things.
One has nothing to do with the other.

And, again you will refuse to discuss the Uncaused Cause.

[Shooby]

  So you can do all your avoidance manuevers and launch into a dinosaur morphing into a bird which morphed into a sheep which morphed into a boulder which morphed into a chimp.  Or whatever your current crop of Transformers are doing.  And, just always stay there with nonsensical nonsense rather than going back to the Beginning.  Because, you can't.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:46:05 GMT -5 Shooby said:

In order to establish GOD, we need to go to ground Zero.  What do you believe?  The very beginning point of the Universe.  We can argue about evolution or what happened after this or which God, etc.  But, First, we have to establish Ground Zero.  What happened?  After we do that, then we can move forward.  But, you won't.

I am establishing evolution not the beginning of the universe, a God could have created the universe and life but life evolved, so the existence of God is not evidence against Evolution is it now?

[Shooby]

  All of your so called arguments are meant to distract and avoid.  Anyone with a brain can understand that life does not come from non life.  Life creates life.  Inert objects to not become animated life.  No matter how long i stare at my dining room chair, even for the next billion years, it is not going to "evolve" into something living.  Only the living create living.  Life comes from life.  The genetic building components are already there, where God put them.  God created  Life because God is also living. 

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:54:09 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Yes, we do.  We need to first establish God or No God.  If you can establish no God, then really what else is there to talk about other than random processes?   How did nothing become everything?  Isn't that the very essence?  But, you won't go there.  Instead we will just jump right past that to the chemical soup.  And, the chemical soup became an amoeba.  And, the amoeba grew into 2.  Then one grew a penis and crawled up onto land while the other simultaneously grew into vagina and they both just stumbled out of the soup and the male tripped and fell and landed on top of the female and thus the human race was born.  
  Funny but you never discuss any particulars.  You just talk in large, vague  terms.  lol

I am afraid no scientist or reasonable mind accepts your premise, the evidence for evolution exists whether God exists or not, it is only an either or in your belief system, so the onus is on you to make the case against evolution by proving God created all life in a POOF.

Nothing vague about evolution, any particulars you wish to know either ask me or study biology.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 16:01:55 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  All of your so called arguments are meant to distract and avoid.  Anyone with a brain can understand that life does not come from non life.  Life creates life.  Inert objects to not become animated life.  No matter how long i stare at my dining room chair, even for the next billion years, it is not going to "evolve" into something living.  Only the living create living.  Life comes from life.  The genetic building components are already there, where God put them.  God created  Life because God is also living. 

Evolution is not the explanation for the beginning of life, it is the explanation for life's diversity, now you seem to be trying to distract and avoid debating the actual evidence for evolution, now that is not nice.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 15:56:39 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  So you can do all your avoidance manuevers and launch into a dinosaur morphing into a bird which morphed into a sheep which morphed into a boulder which morphed into a chimp.  Or whatever your current crop of Transformers are doing.  And, just always stay there with nonsensical nonsense rather than going back to the Beginning.  Because, you can't.

I am not the one who is avoiding evolution, you are the one intent on manoeuvring an evolution debate into an irrelevant debate on the existence of the universe and life, despite me telling you God could have done both but evolution would still be true.

[Shooby]

No.  Pretty much all of your threads are about God, the existence of God, etc.  If you want to talk about God directed Evolution, then we need to establish God as either existing or not.  If there is no God, then you can talk about random processes.  So, just because you dont' see the relevance of my point does not in fact make my point irrelevant.  But, if you want to just carry on preaching to your usual choir, then be my guest.  I have other things to do.

[toshmanta]

Shooby, I can not make it any clearer, God existing, God creating the universe from nothing and God creating life from non-life is not evidence against evolution.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 16:13:25 GMT -5 Shooby said:

No.  Pretty much all of your threads are about God, the existence of God, etc.  If you want to talk about God directed Evolution, then we need to establish God as either existing or not.  If there is no God, then you can talk about random processes.  So, just because you dont' see the relevance of my point does not in fact make my point irrelevant.  But, if you want to just carry on preaching to your usual choir, then be my guest.  I have other things to do.

To those who believe in God and evolution your premise is indeed irrelevant, my thread was aimed at them, they do not seem to share your either or premise and i can see their logic.

Stop repeating and regurgitating the same false premise, i do not have to prove god does not exist to prove evolution, but i can use evolution to prove God did not direct it unless he was a flawed psychopath with planning problems.