I don't get where God fits in??

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 16:01:55 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  All of your so called arguments are meant to distract and avoid.  Anyone with a brain can understand that life does not come from non life.  Life creates life.  Inert objects to not become animated life.  No matter how long i stare at my dining room chair, even for the next billion years, it is not going to "evolve" into something living.  Only the living create living.  Life comes from life.  The genetic building components are already there, where God put them.  God created  Life because God is also living. 

Oh, good grief!

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 15:54:09 GMT -5 Shooby said:

  Yes, we do.  We need to first establish God or No God.  If you can establish no God, then really what else is there to talk about other than random processes?   How did nothing become everything?  Isn't that the very essence?  But, you won't go there.  Instead we will just jump right past that to the chemical soup.  And, the chemical soup became an amoeba.  And, the amoeba grew into 2.  Then one grew a penis and crawled up onto land while the other simultaneously grew into vagina and they both just stumbled out of the soup and the male tripped and fell and landed on top of the female and thus the human race was born.  
  Funny but you never discuss any particulars.  You just talk in large, vague  terms.  lol

You don't read much besides the bible, do you?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Nov 19, 2016 14:09:41 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

I believe that God sparked the whole thing off and we're actually a lab experiment. I have issues with the omniscient part.

A designer without a design is an interesting contradiction, if true seems rather pointless to just throw dice randomly, hardly promotes an intention to create humans.

God can be hard to understand. I know God exists. And so does evolution.

You know Tosh, I really haven't had to articulate my thoughts on this in over 15 years so thanks for making me think about this again.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 17:53:56 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Nov 19, 2016 14:09:41 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

A designer without a design is an interesting contradiction, if true seems rather pointless to just throw dice randomly, hardly promotes an intention to create humans.

God can be hard to understand. I know God exists. And so does evolution.

You know Tosh, I really haven't had to articulate my thoughts on this in over 15 years so thanks for making me think about this again.

Can I ask HOW you know that God exists?

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 17:53:56 GMT -5 Wisconsin Beth said:

Nov 19, 2016 14:09:41 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

A designer without a design is an interesting contradiction, if true seems rather pointless to just throw dice randomly, hardly promotes an intention to create humans.

God can be hard to understand. I know God exists. And so does evolution.

You know Tosh, I really haven't had to articulate my thoughts on this in over 15 years so thanks for making me think about this again.

Beth, we will keep this light hearted, i am no fire and brimstone atheist, but i do laugh when on one hand theists use logic to argue for God but when they face logic, the phrase " God works in mysterious ways " pops out like a verbal tic.

I have studied the history of religion, morality, spirituality and morality for decades, it is in itself an epic transformation from animal to human, the evolution of humanity should inspire us all, i worship the journey of goodness. God to me is just an imaginary figurehead of goodness.

God actually comes second to " wheat ", human goodness took off after farming.

[Waffle]

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 19, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5 Waffle said:

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

Probably not.

[justme]

I waiver between agnostic and atheist. In my religious moments I favor the thinking of diests - where God is a clock maker of sorts...made the clock and let it keep time. I just personally cannot wrap my head around a god that is an active participant, or actively stands by, in all the things that happen in life. Evolution fits in fine with my religious fits because if I believe in a god that created everything, it's perfectly reasonable that he created evolution...it's just the clock continuing to keep time.

[Tennesseer]

toshmanta said: "Creationism is an industry,some are making many millions out of it, quite shameful really."

Interesting read. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

[Shooby]

Nov 19, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5 Waffle said:

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

I have yet to see a nonbeliever show me ANY evidence of their beliefs and belief systems.  They have as much Faith as believers do in whatever they think or believe.

[steff]

Nov 19, 2016 19:16:10 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 19, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5 Waffle said:

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

I have yet to see a nonbeliever show me ANY evidence of their beliefs and belief systems.  They have as much Faith as believers do in whatever they think or believe.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 19:14:05 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

toshmanta said: "Creationism is an industry,some are making many millions out of it, quite shameful really."

Interesting read. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District

Shows you how long i have been banging my drum, i followed this case 12 years ago, what was funny was Intelligent Design was just repackaged Creation Science which had already been declared religious in a previous trial(Supreme Court case Edwards v. Aguillard in 1987.).

A keen eyed lawyer noticed their documentation was identical including typo errors.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5 Waffle said:

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

Oxymorons are often used in irony, glad you got it.

Unfortunately when it comes to subjective experiences our minds are very susceptible to illusion and delusion, sometimes we see what we want to see, believe what we want to believe.

I cannot believe anything without some supporting evidence or logic.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 19:16:10 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 19, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5 Waffle said:

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

I have yet to see a nonbeliever show me ANY evidence of their beliefs and belief systems.  They have as much Faith as believers do in whatever they think or believe.

Shooby, not believing something is not a belief system, just like not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 18:56:14 GMT -5 justme said:

I waiver between agnostic and atheist. In my religious moments I favor the thinking of diests - where God is a clock maker of sorts...made the clock and let it keep time. I just personally cannot wrap my head around a god that is an active participant, or actively stands by, in all the things that happen in life. Evolution fits in fine with my religious fits because if I believe in a god that created everything, it's perfectly reasonable that he created evolution...it's just the clock continuing to keep time.

The founding fathers were mostly Deists, my objection to it is simple, if God is not participating, what is the point in worshipping him, most people want to believe in gods because of an afterlife, we just dont like the idea of dying, it is called Terror Management....or Death Denial.

[justme]

Nov 19, 2016 20:10:00 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 18:56:14 GMT -5 justme said:

I waiver between agnostic and atheist. In my religious moments I favor the thinking of diests - where God is a clock maker of sorts...made the clock and let it keep time. I just personally cannot wrap my head around a god that is an active participant, or actively stands by, in all the things that happen in life. Evolution fits in fine with my religious fits because if I believe in a god that created everything, it's perfectly reasonable that he created evolution...it's just the clock continuing to keep time.

The founding fathers were mostly Deists, my objection to it is simple, if God is not participating, what is the point in worshipping him, most people want to believe in gods because of an afterlife, we just dont like the idea of dying, it is called Terror Management....or Death Denial.

You're asking the wrong person. Even on days when I feel a bit religious, I dislike the term worship. But that's probably why I feel I'm atheist as much as I feel agnostic.

I think most of my religious-ness not being squalshed comes from the origin of the universe. If it was the big bang, what caused the big bang?

It's not just the afterlife. There's also the explaining the unknown - especially before this modern time. There's having a greater being be in charge of right vs wrong. There's having an unquestionable being telling you you're right vs the rest of the world. There's lots of reasons for religion.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 20:20:26 GMT -5 justme said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:10:00 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

The founding fathers were mostly Deists, my objection to it is simple, if God is not participating, what is the point in worshipping him, most people want to believe in gods because of an afterlife, we just dont like the idea of dying, it is called Terror Management....or Death Denial.

You're asking the wrong person. Even on days when I feel a bit religious, I dislike the term worship. But that's probably why I feel I'm atheist as much as I feel agnostic.

I think most of my religious-ness not being squalshed comes from the origin of the universe. If it was the big bang, what caused the big bang?

It's not just the afterlife. There's also the explaining the unknown - especially before this modern time. There's having a greater being be in charge of right vs wrong. There's having an unquestionable being telling you you're right vs the rest of the world. There's lots of reasons for religion.

Since there are billions of galaxies and trillions of suns and planets, why should the origin of the universe be significant to one species on one spec of dust?

[justme]

Nov 19, 2016 20:25:48 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:20:26 GMT -5 justme said:

You're asking the wrong person. Even on days when I feel a bit religious, I dislike the term worship. But that's probably why I feel I'm atheist as much as I feel agnostic.

I think most of my religious-ness not being squalshed comes from the origin of the universe. If it was the big bang, what caused the big bang?

It's not just the afterlife. There's also the explaining the unknown - especially before this modern time. There's having a greater being be in charge of right vs wrong. There's having an unquestionable being telling you you're right vs the rest of the world. There's lots of reasons for religion.

Since there are billions of galaxies and trillions of suns and planets, why should the origin of the universe be significant to one species on one spec of dust?

Since there are billions of galaxies abs trillions of suns and planets, why should anything be significant to one species on one spec of dust?

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 20:30:48 GMT -5 justme said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:25:48 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Since there are billions of galaxies and trillions of suns and planets, why should the origin of the universe be significant to one species on one spec of dust?

Since there are billions of galaxies abs trillions of suns and planets, why should anything be significant to one species on one spec of dust?

Oh i think we can be significant without involving the whole universe.

[justme]

Nov 19, 2016 20:39:07 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:30:48 GMT -5 justme said:

Since there are billions of galaxies abs trillions of suns and planets, why should anything be significant to one species on one spec of dust?

Oh i think we can be significant without involving the whole universe.

You were the one that brought that shit in when I said the basis for what little belief I have in religion on the days I have it stems from wondering what caused the big bang which is currently the number one theory on the beginning of the universe. Well at least last I heard it's number one.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 20:41:41 GMT -5 justme said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:39:07 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Oh i think we can be significant without involving the whole universe.

You were the one that brought that shit in when I said the basis for what little belief I have in religion on the days I have it stems from wondering what caused the big bang which is currently the number one theory on the beginning of the universe. Well at least last I heard it's number one.

To link the creation of the universe as somehow significant to one species on one spec of dust is no different to believing everything revolves around the earth and YOU.

Why does it matter how the universe began if it is not about YOU.

[justme]

Nov 19, 2016 20:57:05 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:41:41 GMT -5 justme said:

You were the one that brought that shit in when I said the basis for what little belief I have in religion on the days I have it stems from wondering what caused the big bang which is currently the number one theory on the beginning of the universe. Well at least last I heard it's number one.

To link the creation of the universe as somehow significant to one species on one spec of dust is no different to believing everything revolves around the earth and YOU.

Why does it matter how the universe began if it is not about YOU.

Why does anything matter if it's not about you? Why does sexism matter if your a male? Racism if you're not a minority? The US government if you're not a citizen? Exploration of the universe if you live on earth? Black holes if they're light-years away?

Plus, I never said it was significant to a species. I merely stated that the unknown origins of the big bang is what makes me question what caused it and some of the time posit that God might have caused it.

[Deleted]

Let's throw in option #3 from Elon Musk, a pretty intelligent human being:

"So given that we're clearly on a trajectory to have games that are indistinguishable from reality, and those games could be played on any set-top box or on a PC or whatever, and there would probably be billions of such computers or set-top boxes, it would seem to follow that the odds that we're in base reality is one in billions."


www.vox.com/2016/6/2/11837608/elon-musk-simulation-argument

It sure is possible.

[toshmanta]

Nov 19, 2016 21:05:40 GMT -5 justme said:

Nov 19, 2016 20:57:05 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

To link the creation of the universe as somehow significant to one species on one spec of dust is no different to believing everything revolves around the earth and YOU.

Why does it matter how the universe began if it is not about YOU.

Why does anything matter if it's not about you? Why does sexism matter if your a male? Racism if you're not a minority? The US government if you're not a citizen? Exploration of the universe if you live on earth? Black holes if they're light-years away?

Plus, I never said it was significant to a species. I merely stated that the unknown origins of the big bang is what makes me question what caused it and some of the time posit that God might have caused it.

You posit god as the cause because it was created for you, the whole universe just for you, it is called the intentional stance a cry for more than earthly significance.  Shame on you.

Anyway the whole idea of a heaven makes me want to cry, my memory and consciousness floating about blind with no eyes, deaf with no ears, dumb with no vocal chords, no taste buds with no mouth, no smell with no nose, no touch with no hands and i cannot even sit next to God because i don't even have an ass. I  hope i can read minds or i am going to be bobbing about for eternity wondering what the fuck hell looks like, it could not be worse.

Peace

[justme]

Nov 19, 2016 23:12:52 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 19, 2016 21:05:40 GMT -5 justme said:

Why does anything matter if it's not about you? Why does sexism matter if your a male? Racism if you're not a minority? The US government if you're not a citizen? Exploration of the universe if you live on earth? Black holes if they're light-years away?

Plus, I never said it was significant to a species. I merely stated that the unknown origins of the big bang is what makes me question what caused it and some of the time posit that God might have caused it.

You posit god as the cause because it was created for you, the whole universe just for you, it is called the intentional stance a cry for more than earthly significance.  Shame on you.

Anyway the whole idea of a heaven makes me want to cry, my memory and consciousness floating about blind with no eyes, deaf with no ears, dumb with no vocal chords, no taste buds with no mouth, no smell with no nose, no touch with no hands and i cannot even sit next to God because i don't even have an ass. I  hope i can read minds or i am going to bobbing about for eternity wondering what the fuck hell looks like, it could not be worse.

Peace

You make a lot of assumptions without asking questions to find out if you're assumptions are right, and then argue those assumptions. That's not a wise tact to take when discussing things as controversial and personal as religion. Especially when discussing it with those that are more charged on these topics than myself.

Case in point, you assume my possible belief that God created the big bang as a belief that he created it for me, or at the very least for man. On earth. When in reality I have been arguing since I was young that not only is it arrogant to think we are the only lifeforms on earth, it's also arrogant to think God created only one planet with life in the universe. In fact, I've asked myself on more than one occasion that if there is a god maybe he views us as a mistake, experiment 626 if you will, and moved onto another planet to improve upon us and that's why some crazy awful shit had happened here.

As for heaven, your view of it is very different from mine, if it exists. My thoughts in heaven is a disbelief in that it exists because my idea from heaven is different from every other human that I have no idea how than many heavens could exist in parallel. If my idea of heaven is meeting my grandparents that I barely knew because they died when I was young but there idea was solitary meditation - how do those heavens meet up? Do I meet just my idea of my grandparents or are they dragged from their meditation and therefore their heaven?


Assumptions are a bad thing to make, infinitely more when it comes to a person's beliefs.

[sesfw]

Sorry, right now I don't have time to read all the posts

Back to the OP ........... I know biblically Creation took 6 days.  Somehow I don't think one of God's day is our 24 hours .......... To me He is still creating.

[toshmanta]

Nov 20, 2016 15:08:02 GMT -5 sesfw said:

Sorry, right now I don't have time to read all the posts

Back to the OP ........... I know biblically Creation took 6 days.  Somehow I don't think one of God's day is our 24 hours .......... To me He is still creating.

I am still confused regardless of his timepiece why he created dinosaurs and then changed his mind, another one of his creations has me literally scratching my head, why create mosquitoes to kill millions of innocent humans with Malaria year in year out?

[Shooby]

Billlions and billions.... nope the dining room chair is still the same!  Go figure.

[toshmanta]

Nov 20, 2016 20:07:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Billlions and billions.... nope the dining room chair is still the same!  Go figure.

Deep.....very deep.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 20, 2016 20:07:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Billlions and billions.... nope the dining room chair is still the same!  Go figure.

That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.