I don't get where God fits in??

[toshmanta]

Nov 20, 2016 20:32:37 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nov 20, 2016 20:07:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Billlions and billions.... nope the dining room chair is still the same!  Go figure.

That's probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

I withhold judgement until i run it through the Enigma machine.

[sesfw]

why create mosquitoes to kill millions of innocent humans with Malaria year in year out?

The only reason I can see for mosquitoes is they are tasty bat food.

I also wondered about scorpions ........ but I'm not God, and everything has a reason

[Tiny]

Nov 20, 2016 20:07:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Billlions and billions.... nope the dining room chair is still the same!  Go figure.

This indicates you don't have even a basic  understanding of the theory of evolution (available via a soundbyte).  You can spell the word but you have no clue as to what it might mean.   I'm so sorry.

[Tiny]

Nov 21, 2016 10:25:59 GMT -5 sesfw said:

why create mosquitoes to kill millions of innocent humans with Malaria year in year out?

The only reason I can see for mosquitoes is they are tasty bat food.

I also wondered about scorpions ........ but I'm not God, and everything has a reason

Does this mean you don't believe in Hell?    Because if everything happens for a reason - doesn't that indicate that people who break God's rules - are ACTUALLY doing what God wants?   

[Tiny]

FWIW: if you look at the Earth being the thing God cares about the most... I'd have to assume that God made the earth for BUGS - not humans.... The Earth is the PERFECT place for insects (insects even live on/in humans). Insects outnumber humans by the billions. Insects inhabit places that humans cannot.    Insects are perfectly suited to the places they live - they don't need to modify themselves (clothes) or build artificial stuff (electricity? cars? etc)  to keep themselves alive.   They are PERFECT in their natural forms.   Human's on the other... well, take a look around.   

If God created anything in His image - I'm voting God's got 6 legs (and possibly wings).

[sesfw]

If God created anything in His image - I'm voting God's got 6 legs (and possibly wings).

 excuse me for laughing but you do have a point.

However when you look at the lifespan of an insect compared to the lifespan of a human/mammal there is a difference.

Yes, I believe God exists and no, I don't believe this is the only world of His creation.  I also don't think He is through with creating.  I think creation and evolution are compatible.

During Old Testament times, before written word, the stories were handed down through the generations.  And every couple of generations probably embellished a bit.  As typical for good story tellers.  How many generations before being written down?  Don't know.

I need to go somewhere now so I'll finish my thoughts later.

[weltschmerz]

Nov 21, 2016 11:07:26 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Nov 20, 2016 20:07:57 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Billlions and billions.... nope the dining room chair is still the same!  Go figure.

This indicates you don't have even a basic  understanding of the theory of evolution (available via a soundbyte).  You can spell the word but you have no clue as to what it might mean.   I'm so sorry.

Don't you know that chairs have to evolve in order to survive?
The need to adapt to hostile environments, adapt to evade predators and adapt to environmental food sources.
Sheesh!

[swamp]

Nov 21, 2016 11:18:05 GMT -5 Tiny said:

FWIW: if you look at the Earth being the thing God cares about the most... I'd have to assume that God made the earth for BUGS - not humans.... The Earth is the PERFECT place for insects (insects even live on/in humans). Insects outnumber humans by the billions. Insects inhabit places that humans cannot.    Insects are perfectly suited to the places they live - they don't need to modify themselves (clothes) or build artificial stuff (electricity? cars? etc)  to keep themselves alive.   They are PERFECT in their natural forms.   Human's on the other... well, take a look around.   

If God created anything in His image - I'm voting God's got 6 legs (and possibly wings).

and an exoskeleton.

Like a big palmetto bug.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Nov 19, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5 Waffle said:

Fire and brimstone atheist seems an oxymoron.

To me this is about faith. I have faith that God exists. I could share some faith experiences, but they wouldn't be convincing to a non believer.

yes. Me too. Weltz asked me and I know she won't be convinced and I chickened out on trying to answer. Sorry about that.

[Deleted]

In the beginning, man created god.

He had his reason.

[uncle23]

Nov 21, 2016 16:40:47 GMT -5 @joey said:

In the beginning, man created god.

He had his reason.

And man was with God and Man was God....



Everything can be explained except WHY ...


Enjoy and love one another ...

[Tennesseer]

Whose God is the true God(s)?  The ancient Greeks?  The Egyptians?  Romans?  Chrsitians?  Dahomey?  Aztecs?  And those are just some of the different culture's Gods which have arisen on our planet let alone on other earths through out the universe(s). 

Gods have been around since the dawn of humankind.

[Deleted]

Nov 21, 2016 18:27:32 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Whose God is the true God(s)?  The ancient Greeks?  The Egyptians?  Romans?  Chrsitians?  Dahomey?  Aztecs?  And those are just some of the different culture's Gods which have arisen on our planet let alone on other earths through out the universe(s). 

Gods have been around since the dawn of humankind.

Yes, about as long as the desire to live forever. 

[toshmanta]

Nov 21, 2016 16:24:37 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Nov 21, 2016 11:14:59 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Does this mean you don't believe in Hell?    Because if everything happens for a reason - doesn't that indicate that people who break God's rules - are ACTUALLY doing what God wants?   

Sure... God created us to think and make decisions. If he didn't want us to fail then he wouldn't have give us the ability to make the choice.   

::The rest is more of a statement at large not necessarily in response the quote above::

To go back to the mosquito question,  who eats mosquitos?  Bats, fish, and all sorts of other animals.  Who then get eaten by other animals.. and so on and so on.   Why not create something that can kill of other things?   We haven't run out of humans yet?  It's not like millions aren't being born every year to replace the ones that malaria has killed. 

I guess my question is why can't God and evolution be compatible?   If we look back we know that God made man to be fallible,  so we have fallible men writing the stories that talk about creationism,  why would we think those particular men got the stories right? What if they got the stories wrong that we now know as the bible,   but what they didn't get wrong was God creating everything and when he did it?



**Of course all of the above is my belief**

So GOD plans the death and suffering of millions of innocents every year because he is all loving

Incompatible does not quite cover this contradiction.

God and evolution are not compatible unless God is a sadist and terrible at multi tasking, why create dinosaurs in the first place if they were obstacles to mammal evolution and unnecessary?

God seems to be a blind watchmaker with an addiction to violence.

[toshmanta]

The Jewish Scriptures and its predecessor The Epic of Gilgamesh tell us quite a lot about what we knew about ourselves, we knew we were part of the animal kingdom and knew we possessed self awareness.

The origins of the term human go back to the beginnings of farming where sedentary communities lived behind fortified walls, EDEN means walled garden, these people no longer lived like the hunter-gatherer savages outside the wall,they lived by essential new social commandments because the biggest threat to survival was no longer climate, the environment or resources, it was human behaviour. We started to congregate in the thousands, tribal-familiar bonds were not sufficient to restrain our animal nature, and we became the biggest threat to our own survival. So those who lived inside the garden under the new rules were considered humans and those outside remained animals. We may not have known we shared common ancestors with the animal kingdom but we knew we were part of it, animism was an equal opportunity spirit culture.
Anthropologists confirm male primitive hunter gatherers in the tribes of the Amazon and Papua New Guinea blamed WOMEN as the biggest cause of conflict( EVE), no surprise monotheism is so obsessed with rules about women.

In the beginning was the word and the word was " i shall be what i shall be  or " i am that i am "", not the most difficult metaphor of self awareness.God was the personification of self awareness and behaviour, the gods of climate, environment and resources were no longer top dog, we had a new priority. God was a clear guide to humans that we have the ability( unique free will) to modify our animal instincts to something less destructive, the origin of morality and humanity. 

Now if you want to teach something by word of mouth you have to embellish it into a mythical fable and we did just that.

[toshmanta]

 Because remember this isn't supposed to be the be all and end all incarnation of a person. If you look to most religions this time on earth is only one part of the overall journey.

====================================================

Not sure an afterlife explains an all loving God murdering millions of innocents?

God is Machiavelli on steroids, he appears to lack empathy and compassion.

When we evolved self awareness we jumped with joy, we had discovered we were alive, unfortunately there was a downside to this new vision, we realised we would die and it terrorised us.
Now fear of death is not a very good survival tool in a brutal world of tooth and claw, our mind is but an extension of our survival genes and it needed to find a survival plan to ease anxiety and fear. Our awareness of dreams provided a model for good news, since our bodies stayed still and yet we moved about we took this to mean we had a spirit that moved about regardless of a body, there is no such thing as original thought and our brain is a copying and pattern making machine.

Surprise surprise, all the earliest religions were based on dream cultures.
    

[Shooby]

Nov 21, 2016 21:36:54 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

 Because remember this isn't supposed to be the be all and end all incarnation of a person. If you look to most religions this time on earth is only one part of the overall journey.

====================================================

Not sure an afterlife explains an all loving God murdering millions of innocents?

God is Machiavelli on steroids, he appears to lack empathy and compassion.

When we evolved self awareness we jumped with joy, we had discovered we were alive, unfortunately there was a downside to this new vision, we realised we would die and it terrorised us.
Now fear of death is not a very good survival tool in a brutal world of tooth and claw, our mind is but an extension of our survival genes and it needed to find a survival plan to ease anxiety and fear. Our awareness of dreams provided a model for good news, since our bodies stayed still and yet we moved about we took this to mean we had a spirit that moved about regardless of a body, there is no such thing as original thought and our brain is a copying and pattern making machine.

Surprise surprise, all the earliest religions were based on dream cultures.
    

[br

Angry at a God u say doesnt exist. Lol

[toshmanta]

Nov 21, 2016 22:34:08 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Nov 21, 2016 21:36:54 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

 Because remember this isn't supposed to be the be all and end all incarnation of a person. If you look to most religions this time on earth is only one part of the overall journey.

====================================================

Not sure an afterlife explains an all loving God murdering millions of innocents?

God is Machiavelli on steroids, he appears to lack empathy and compassion.

When we evolved self awareness we jumped with joy, we had discovered we were alive, unfortunately there was a downside to this new vision, we realised we would die and it terrorised us.
Now fear of death is not a very good survival tool in a brutal world of tooth and claw, our mind is but an extension of our survival genes and it needed to find a survival plan to ease anxiety and fear. Our awareness of dreams provided a model for good news, since our bodies stayed still and yet we moved about we took this to mean we had a spirit that moved about regardless of a body, there is no such thing as original thought and our brain is a copying and pattern making machine.

Surprise surprise, all the earliest religions were based on dream cultures.
    

[br

Angry at a God u say doesnt exist. Lol

Only in your dreams dearest, only in your dreams.

[toshmanta]

The Intentional Stance.

Back in the days before humans left Africa we became aware of each others intentions, we began to understand human behaviour in the sense of good or bad things being done( to us or by us) for a reason, ie the concept of intention.

We took this human model and applied it to everything, and ANIMISM was born, most things had a spirit( animals,weather, places etc) and if something bad happened it was intentionally being done by angry spirits, vice versa if something good happened it was intentionally being done by a pleased spirit, and we tried to influence these moods and intended actions by various methods(worship,sacrifice, bribes etc). Even today we still personify events, we thank Lady Luck if something good happens almost as if it was intended for us.

So spirits were now complete copies of ourselves and everything happened for a reason, if it rained too much it was intended by an angry rain spirit and if we had a bumper harvest it was intended by a pleased spirit. 

The spirits moved away from the rivers and forests to become gods on mountaintops then up into the sky, finally in a competition of oneupmanship THE ONE TRUE GOD was placed outside our universe, and of course we were intentionally created by God with good intentions and for his believers everything good or bad that happens is GOD'S WILL.

It seems we are predisposed to thinking anything that happens to us must be somehow intended, it is called the intentional stance.

[toshmanta]

Nov 21, 2016 17:58:20 GMT -5 uncle23 said:

Nov 21, 2016 16:40:47 GMT -5 @joey said:

In the beginning, man created god.

He had his reason.

And man was with God and Man was God....



Everything can be explained except WHY ...


Enjoy and love one another ...

You have just explained why you are here, so it seems we can explain the WHY.

[toshmanta]

Nov 21, 2016 15:08:20 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Nov 21, 2016 11:07:26 GMT -5 Tiny said:

This indicates you don't have even a basic  understanding of the theory of evolution (available via a soundbyte).  You can spell the word but you have no clue as to what it might mean.   I'm so sorry.

Don't you know that chairs have to evolve in order to survive?
The need to adapt to hostile environments, adapt to evade predators and adapt to environmental food sources.
Sheesh!

Chairs evolved from their own kind but God created the first chair.

[Deleted]

God fits in right between "life is tough" and "I want to live forever".

[Tiny]

Nov 21, 2016 15:01:38 GMT -5 sesfw said:

If God created anything in His image - I'm voting God's got 6 legs (and possibly wings).

 excuse me for laughing but you do have a point.

However when you look at the lifespan of an insect compared to the lifespan of a human/mammal there is a difference.

Yes, I believe God exists and no, I don't believe this is the only world of His creation.  I also don't think He is through with creating.  I think creation and evolution are compatible.

During Old Testament times, before written word, the stories were handed down through the generations.  And every couple of generations probably embellished a bit.  As typical for good story tellers.  How many generations before being written down?  Don't know.

I need to go somewhere now so I'll finish my thoughts later. 

LOL! It was suppose to be funny (and little maybe just bit true.... )

Where'd the requirement for a "long life" come in?  You're thinking about this purely from a "human" perspective and not a 'god perspective'. Why would a god care about how long his special creatures live - they should be perfect just the way he created them...   

FWIW: I'm a life long Atheist who grew up Catholic. My big epiphany about God wasn't that there wasn't one - but that people actually BELIEVED it was real.        

[Tiny]

Nov 21, 2016 16:24:37 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Nov 21, 2016 11:14:59 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Does this mean you don't believe in Hell?    Because if everything happens for a reason - doesn't that indicate that people who break God's rules - are ACTUALLY doing what God wants?   

Sure... God created us to think and make decisions. If he didn't want us to fail then he wouldn't have give us the ability to make the choice.   

Cool. We're MORE POWERFUL than God!!  And God isn't omniscient... He's sitting on the edge of His chair wondering how it's all going to turn out...   He can't know exactly what's going to happen - because we might not do what He wants.  Awesome!

I'm assuming that defying God doesn't result in eternal punishment, right?  Cause you know... that's not particular fair or just or merciful.  

[weltschmerz]

Here's my take on it.
Biological organisms evolved in order to survive.
Some grew wings. Some changed colour to avoid predators. Some carried around their houses on their backs.
Humanoids evolved to have a big brain...capable of inventing deities.
Also capable of yearning for an afterlife. Who doesn't want to be immortal? Play your cards right, and you can live forever!
That's why every religion, since the dawn of time, is thanatocentric at its core.
It's about immortality.

[Tiny]

Nov 22, 2016 11:32:09 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 21, 2016 15:08:20 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Don't you know that chairs have to evolve in order to survive?
The need to adapt to hostile environments, adapt to evade predators and adapt to environmental food sources.
Sheesh!

Chairs evolved from their own kind but God created the first chair.

You're missing the point... the chair, in the dining room set is expected to evolve or morph or transmogrify into a different kind of chair.   THAT CHAIR... not a future generation of chair - that one.   That's NOT how evolution works. 

 

Of course,  if we just leave the chair and do nothing for a few hundred years - it will decay and change...   but even that's not really evolution - because it's not becoming better at existing in it's environment - it's just decaying.  

The chair MIGHT inspire someone to build a better version of it... maybe one's that's more comfortable to sit on... that's a kind of 'evolution' - an evolution of style - in that the next generation of chairs is a bit better suited to being a comfortable dinning room chair... but the original chair isn't 'evolving' or changing.

[Tiny]

Nov 22, 2016 14:52:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Here's my take on it.
Biological organisms evolved in order to survive.
Some grew wings. Some changed colour to avoid predators. Some carried around their houses on their backs.
Humanoids evolved to have a big brain...capable of inventing deities.
Also capable of yearning for an afterlife. Who doesn't want to be immortal? Play your cards right, and you can live forever!
That's why every religion, since the dawn of time, is thanatocentric at its core.
It's about immortality.

I don't want to be immortal.   It sounds horribly boring and tedious and endless...  Thanks, but I'll pass.  

I don't think it's a need for "immortality" so much as a need for someone you loved to not just be gone... and that's why the idea of an afterlife is so prevalent.  The one's you loved (with your whole heart and soul) aren't just gone AND you might get to be with them again.   I think that's what drives the "afterlife".  

Cause, really, if you think about it - odds are there are going to be more people you DON"T like in the afterlife than people you DO like in the afterlife.... and why would anyone be comfortable with that?   We all assume it will be filled with ONLY the people we love...   But what happens if you have to spend eternity without someone you loved?  or with someone you've got nothing but bad memories of?   How does that work....

[weltschmerz]

Nov 22, 2016 14:58:50 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Nov 22, 2016 14:52:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Here's my take on it.
Biological organisms evolved in order to survive.
Some grew wings. Some changed colour to avoid predators. Some carried around their houses on their backs.
Humanoids evolved to have a big brain...capable of inventing deities.
Also capable of yearning for an afterlife. Who doesn't want to be immortal? Play your cards right, and you can live forever!
That's why every religion, since the dawn of time, is thanatocentric at its core.
It's about immortality.

I don't want to be immortal.   It sounds horribly boring and tedious and endless...  Thanks, but I'll pass.  

Neither do I, but think about it! From Egyptian mummification to reincarnation to paradise...it's all about immortality. And what a great tool to control the masses! "Behave yourselves, don't make waves, and your next life will be much better!"
As far as I'm concerned, the same thing will happen to me that happens to every animal when it dies....whether it's a giraffe on the Serengeti plains, the raccoon under my porch or the chicken  I had for lunch. Nothing. Over and done.
There's absolutely no reason to believe that homo sapiens have souls and others don't.

[uncle23]

Nov 22, 2016 11:24:58 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Nov 21, 2016 17:58:20 GMT -5 uncle23 said:

And man was with God and Man was God....



Everything can be explained except WHY ...


Enjoy and love one another ...

You have just explained why you are here, so it seems we can explain the WHY.

do tell me why am i here.....

[toshmanta]

Nov 22, 2016 14:55:41 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Nov 22, 2016 11:32:09 GMT -5 toshmanta said:

Chairs evolved from their own kind but God created the first chair.

You're missing the point... the chair, in the dining room set is expected to evolve or morph or transmogrify into a different kind of chair.   THAT CHAIR... not a future generation of chair - that one.   That's NOT how evolution works. 

 

Of course,  if we just leave the chair and do nothing for a few hundred years - it will decay and change...   but even that's not really evolution - because it's not becoming better at existing in it's environment - it's just decaying.  

The chair MIGHT inspire someone to build a better version of it... maybe one's that's more comfortable to sit on... that's a kind of 'evolution' - an evolution of style - in that the next generation of chairs is a bit better suited to being a comfortable dinning room chair... but the original chair isn't 'evolving' or changing.

You missed my macro-evolution joke, i was teasing Shooby Doo.