DVM gone riding
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 23:04:13 GMT -5
Posts: 3,383
Favorite Drink: Coffee!!
|
Post by DVM gone riding on Mar 21, 2011 15:36:06 GMT -5
when we were in HS we would go out in groups-never in a million years would it occur to any of us women that the men should pay-but my mother told me when they did causal group dating (not real couples not individual dates) the guys ALWAYS paid, how you were raised and WHEN you were raised would make a big difference on this argument.
I stand by what I said to start, first couple of dates he better pay or there would never be more, but in a "dating" couple I think costs should be split.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Mar 21, 2011 15:46:19 GMT -5
Just because someone was raised by sexist parents or in a sexist period of history doesn't make sexism ok just as someone raised by racist parents or in a racist period of history doesn't justify racism. The attitude of "well that's how I was raised" might play when you're a child or very young adult, but at some point you have to take responsibility for your own beliefs.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 21, 2011 15:49:50 GMT -5
Hoops,
You said you don't mind paying as long as there is no expectation that you should be paying. How do you know what her expectations are? Do you actually ask?
Lena
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Mar 21, 2011 16:03:44 GMT -5
Hoops, You said you don't mind paying as long as there is no expectation that you should be paying. How do you know what her expectations are? Do you actually ask? Lena If we've gone out a couple times and she's never even thought to reach to pay something (even if it's drinks, popcorn, movie tickets, etc) then it's usually pretty obvious that she's expecting me to pay for it all. It's not usually difficult to figure out. People know when it's time to pay. It's not as if someone jumps out from around a corner and says "gimme $20 to get into the movie". If all of these opportunities have come up and she hasn't so much as glanced at her money, she's clearly not expecting to pony up for anything. I usually give it a couple dates, I think it's fine to expect the person who asks you out the first time to pay, regardless of gender. If we've gone 2 dates, you haven't made any motion to your money, and haven't invited me over for dinner or anything else to show a contribution on your part, it's probably not worth it. I think the "money" is less important than some kind of contribution. I understand what it's like to be broke, make us some sandwiches to have a picnic or something. Contribute something!
|
|
8 Bit WWBG
Administrator
Your Money admin
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 8:57:29 GMT -5
Posts: 9,322
Today's Mood: Mega
|
Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 21, 2011 16:16:09 GMT -5
...:::"If you want to be treated equally, you lose some of the perks along with the crap.":::...
Oooooh, someone link to "secret lives of breadwinner wives" again. Women accepting the bad with the good? NEVER!!!!!!!
...:::"If the woman is interested in anything more than getting some free stuff out of it, she doesn't expect him the pay.":::...
Something that sadly, the guy won't know until its too late. One of my female friends told me that she and her friends had a technique down where she would chat and flirt with a guy, and when she thought he was about to buy a drink, she'd signal, and they'd happen to wander over. Usually, the guy would buy drinks for all three of them.
One of my favorite beer commercials of all time is the one where the jaded guy asks the girl "may I buy you a drink, or would you rather just have the cash?"
|
|
8 Bit WWBG
Administrator
Your Money admin
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 8:57:29 GMT -5
Posts: 9,322
Today's Mood: Mega
|
Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 21, 2011 16:21:35 GMT -5
...:::"I stand by what I said to start, first couple of dates he better pay or there would never be more":::...
Then you can't complain when a man rolls in with the same attitude about how soon she should put out lest there be no more dates.
...:::"If all of these opportunities have come up and she hasn't so much as glanced at her money, she's clearly not expecting to pony up for anything.":::...
I've heard that the "modern" rules (I guess for anyone currently mid-30s and below?) is that while its still generally a safe bet he should pay for the first date or two, she should pick up a smaller tab or activity very quickly thereafter.
Personally, if I was ever dating again, I would refuse to do the "fancy dinner/interview" thing until at least date 3 or 4. I'd choose a fun activity on the first date so we can spend some time in a more relaxed setting. As much fun as the fancy dinner can be, its a lot of work and even MORE pressure.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Mar 21, 2011 16:33:37 GMT -5
"Personally, if I was ever dating again, I would refuse to do the "fancy dinner/interview" thing until at least date 3 or 4. I'd choose a fun activity on the first date so we can spend some time in a more relaxed setting. As much fun as the fancy dinner can be, its a lot of work and even MORE pressure. "
Fully agree, which is why I think the "you gotta pick up the tab for something" is so important and easy. It can be hard to judge based on one dinner, one bill, and the fact that I'm probably grabbing it right away. But a couple of dates involving a ball game, which means tickets which I probably already have, drinks a few times, snacks a time or two, maybe dessert after...multiple dates involving multiple small expenditures as opposed to one very large expenditure gives someone plenty of opportunity to pick up a small bill and contribute.
As much as some argue the idea that if a guy likes you, he'll pay, I'll argue that if a girl likes you, she'll contribute something to the date to show she likes you and isn't just after some free stuff.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 16:42:54 GMT -5
"As much as some argue the idea that if a guy likes you, he'll pay, I'll argue that if a girl likes you, she'll contribute something to the date to show she likes you and isn't just after some free stuff. "
I talked about doing other things to show my appreciation including buying gifts I know he will like. These gifts have included things like tickets to an event and specialty foods. Everyone chose to ignore that part.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Mar 21, 2011 16:48:05 GMT -5
"I talked about doing other things to show my appreciation including buying gifts I know he will like."
How do you know what gifts he will like if you haven't even been out on a date yet? Something tells you me aren't showing up to first dates carrying specialty foods or Yankees tickets.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 17:30:56 GMT -5
LOL You're as bored as I am! You already said it was okay to pay for the first date.
Actually I have had a gift for a guy on a first date. Obviously I knew him before the date. It was something for his dog that came my way and I picked it up for him.
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Mar 21, 2011 17:39:51 GMT -5
I said I think it's ok to expect someone to pay for a first date (or any date) based on non-sexist criteria. If you think the person who asked should pay, I think that's fine. I just don't think a blanket rule like "you pay because you're the guy" is equitable.
I don't think it's ok to expect the guy pays for the first date based on "he's the guy, it's his job".
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 18:17:30 GMT -5
I've already told you it's not about it being his job. The whole point is that it isn't his job and he wants to. If he doesn't want to it is a serious message that he is just not that into me. And if I insist on paying the bill it is a serious message that I'm not that into him. I don't think I owe him anything if he pays but you have to make sure he has absolutely no reason to think so.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 21, 2011 18:31:17 GMT -5
Your whole argument sounds like he's paying for the opportunity to be in your presence. Since he likes you he should pay, basically. That's fine I guess, but what about what the woman wants? I'm assuming that anything beyond a first date, both parties want to spend some time with the other person. Why is he still paying for everything if she wants to see him too? If the reason is, well he's a man that's his job, then I'm still going to call if sexism. If there's some other reason I'm not seeing it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 18:37:44 GMT -5
Craftysarah: It seems that you have to go out to the bars
Lemme tell ya something for sure: I never met anybody worthwhile in a bar, not before I met Whatsisname, The Father of My Children (we met in college), and not in the 17 years I was single after we were divorced and before I remarried.
I'm sure there are some who've met in a bar and it turned out well, but among my friends and I? Not once! 'Course it could have been the times (70s and 80s)....
|
|
busymom
Distinguished Associate
Why is the rum always gone? Oh...that's why.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 21:09:36 GMT -5
Posts: 28,368
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"https://cdn.nickpic.host/images/IPauJ5.jpg","color":""}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0D317F
Mini-Profile Text Color: 0D317F
|
Post by busymom on Mar 21, 2011 18:42:52 GMT -5
Wow! I have to say I'm surprised by some of the guys responses. My DH, back when we were dating (and no it wasn't in the 60's, or 50's or earlier) believed in CHIVALRY. He opened doors for me, and yes, he would pay for dinner. He would even bring me flowers from time to time, for no other reason than to tell me I'm special. And yes, so as not to bust his budget we would find inexpensive things to do, but he always insisted on paying. Because he always made me feel special, I guess that's why he graduated from boyfriend to DH.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 18:46:20 GMT -5
"Your whole argument sounds like he's paying for the opportunity to be in your presence."
You guys bring that assumption to the discussion and won't hear anything else. I'm not sure what you find so complicated about it. I find it a really simple concept in RL.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 21, 2011 18:53:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you find so complicated about it. Why is he still paying for date number 8 or 9 when she obviously enjoys his company as much as he does hers based on the fact that she said yes to date number 8 or 9??? If they're both getting the pleasure of the other person company, which they both want, why is he the only one paying? They aren't trick questions or anything. I'm really curious.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 19:03:44 GMT -5
By date number 8 or 9 you are doing all kinds of other things and not everything costs money. By that point I have prepared at least one meal and organized a few things myself. I've shown my interest and made my contribution in other ways. Look, I can easily afford to pay for dinner. And so can the guys I date. It is on the lines of proving that he thinks I am special. Guys will hang around for the hell of it if you make no demands on them and have no expectations of them. Paying weeds these guys out.
|
|
Sum Dum Gai
Senior Associate
Joined: Aug 15, 2011 15:39:24 GMT -5
Posts: 19,892
|
Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 21, 2011 19:18:49 GMT -5
I don't know. The whole thing still sounds gold diggerish to me. I've never gotten that vibe from you before, at all. So it must be either the way I'm interpreting your explanation or the way you're explaining it, but it's just not clicking for me.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Mar 21, 2011 19:22:03 GMT -5
No one appreciates anything or anyone that comes "easy." Or cheap. If you don't hold yourself of value, no one else will.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Mar 21, 2011 19:22:57 GMT -5
I'm sure the guys don't mean to come off as women haters, either, so it must be in the interpretation.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 21, 2011 19:35:46 GMT -5
"I don't expect him to pay because he's a guy. I expect him to pay to show he is interested in me. If he doesn't, or accepts my offer to pay, I take that as a clear "I'm not interested"."
So do you act this way when going out to lunch with new co workers or the friend of a friend?
You also mentioned that you didn't set the expectations, society did. My response to that is that society now says that men and women are equal, most women work, and thus they should be expected to chip in for their own entertainment.
I'd also feel uncomfortable if I was dating someone and they were paying for everything. I don't know how anyone could stand to do that to someone whose company they enjoy.
I'm in total agreement about the difference between paying and being expected to pay. I work and can afford to pay, and I don't even mind paying. However if I'm paying everything 100% by date three or four, I'm going to start wondering if my kindness is being taken advantage of and I'm simply a meal ticket. If I bring it up and she's aprehensive about chiping in, then I'd probably just her. If she's not willing to contribute to our relationship with her own money, why should I expect any different after we're married? I would her or be glad she dumped me because the horse and rider setup is not what I'm interested in.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 21, 2011 19:39:29 GMT -5
"Yeah, this could get fun really fast. I could totally see two people who were actually otherwise quite well matched disqualifying each other because of some misunderstanding of how the money worked."
This is why I usually just pay for the first and second dates. It eliminates misunderstandings and getting knocked out of the running before you even get started. I just chalk it up to being a necessary evil of being male. I will say though that I don't ask anyone out again who at least doesn't say "thank you" when I buy them a meal.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,865
|
Post by zibazinski on Mar 21, 2011 19:40:24 GMT -5
DF gets annoyed if I pick up the check. Not worth it because he has some interesting "man" ideas and I just "let it go." I do other stuff for him like nice massages because he hates having a strange person rub his body and he hates doing laundry or cleaning cat boxes. There are ways for a woman to show she cares without spending a dime. When he gets home there is NOTHING for him to do but watch tv, read paper, and just veg.
|
|
Phoenix84
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 17, 2011 21:42:35 GMT -5
Posts: 10,056
|
Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 21, 2011 19:49:20 GMT -5
Well I don't. For me the guy paying is a show of interest. I guess it's a bit of a means test. If paying a dinner bill stresses him financially we aren't well suited.
As we've said many times, it doesn't stress many men to pay for dinner, it's the expectation that we HAVE to pay just to have you that we have a problem with.
"He's testing whether you're interested in him or in a free meal."
BINGO that's it! It's all about expectations. Are you really interested in him or his money? How can he know if you never offer to pay?
|
|
busymom
Distinguished Associate
Why is the rum always gone? Oh...that's why.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 21:09:36 GMT -5
Posts: 28,368
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"https://cdn.nickpic.host/images/IPauJ5.jpg","color":""}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0D317F
Mini-Profile Text Color: 0D317F
|
Post by busymom on Mar 21, 2011 20:04:23 GMT -5
No one appreciates anything or anyone that comes "easy." Or cheap. If you don't hold yourself of value, no one else will.
KARMA for zibazinski!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 20:08:38 GMT -5
I don't know. The whole thing still sounds gold diggerish to me. I've never gotten that vibe from you before, at all. So it must be either the way I'm interpreting your explanation or the way you're explaining it, but it's just not clicking for me. Dark at the risk of solidifying my reputation as a conceited witch, I have my choice of dates. I am a good date and no guy has ever gotten the impression that he is paying just for the pleasure of my company. It is seriously something I have never been accused of. I have nothing to prove about my own generosity. It is there. Which makes me very attractive to selfish men. But selfish men only pay for 3 dates tops. And then if they don't get their pay off they disappear. As I said before, I show my appreciation in other ways. There is no communication problem with generous, financially stable men.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 20:10:19 GMT -5
zib
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Apr 28, 2024 7:05:01 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2011 20:11:59 GMT -5
phenoix of course I say thank you. And I even stay away from the maritime lobster and extra appetiser when ordering,
|
|
|
Post by illinicheme on Mar 21, 2011 20:12:29 GMT -5
I'm sure the guys don't mean to come off as women haters, either, so it must be in the interpretation. How in the world are the guys coming off as woman-haters?
|
|