Child custody question

[swamp]

Sometimes my DS and DD share a bed at home, on vacation, or the air mattress when we "camp" outside in the screen house.

If they don't want to, they don't have to. No big deal.

[hoops902]

Jul 12, 2016 10:33:46 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 12, 2016 8:20:29 GMT -5 Pants said:

Right, having the same genitals. Because I'm sure you don't mean if you had two children and one of them had, for example, a birth defect that meant they only had three fingers that you would keep them separated because they had different parts.
I am confused, though, about the argument of this not being sexual. If you are specifically talking about genitals when you make the "same parts" argument, then you are talking about sex and our sexual attitudes as adults and as children. I've been trying to think of the reasons beneath this belief.
I've come up with:
Fear of children being sexual in coed groups, playing doctor, etc. - definitely about sex
Modesty - again, a fear of children being exposed to sexuality, seeing something they "shouldn't", definitely about sex
Fear of molestation or sexual coercion - about sex


What gets me is the assumption that this will only happen in groups of both genders. Meanwhile there's definitely the chance of homosexuals in any group, but the same concerns aren't presented for that variation. And I agree, I don't think there's a right or wrong in this situation necessarily. I do want to dig deeper on people's motivations so that I understand them.

I was really referring to the comfort of the kids, like in GEL's post. I don't know why you decided to jump to all those conclusions. I really don't care if you understand my rationale or not - you do you. I'll do me.

Why are we assuming that the kids wouldn't be comfortable sleeping with siblings of a different gender?  Or that gender plays any part at all in a child's comfort level in sleeping with a sibling?  It's not as if there's any indication at all in the OP that the kids had any issues.

Anyone saying they don't want opposite gender sleeping together, but that it has nothing to do with sexuality is either lying or choosing not to admit it.  You can't on one hand say "it depends on their sexual organs" (either directly or indirectly), and then say "it has nothing to do with sexuality".  It's like saying "it's all about how well you can see things", then saying "it has nothing to do with their eyes".  People have lots of archaic beliefs, typically centered around "this is how I was raised, so it's what I'm comfortable with"...no problems there.  Everyone can have their own belief system.  I do think it's important for people to understand their own beliefs though.  Pretending it's not about sexuality but putting sexual organs at the forefront of the decision isn't fooling anyone.

[raeoflyte]

Both my kids still sleep in my bed. They'd both move to their own rooms if I sleep in their rooms all night with them and since I can't figure out a way to be in 2 places at once... I'm sure they'll be in their own beds/rooms by high school.

[milee]

Jul 12, 2016 9:51:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Why don't you ask your kids, for Heaven's sake. Not every child of every hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent has children that feel the same way. If they are uncomfortable, that's enough of a reason if I'm the parent. Twelve year old Johnny might not want his sister, in her sleep, rolling over against his pee-woody. 12 year old Jessica may be uncomfortable with the fact that she is developing and might not want her 10 year old brother in bed with her. Ask your kids and respect what they tell you even if it differs from the way you feel. If they are fine with it...fine. If they aren't, look for other arrangements.  Make it sexual if you want.  Who cares?  Their privacy should be respected for whatever reason they are asking for it.

The phrasing you use to describe people who do not feel that it is traumatic or unusual for family members to see each other naked or to share sleeping arrangements in a nonsexual way implies a heavy amount of judgment.

Is it really about respecting a child's choice or about forcing a certain set of ideas on them?  If it's about a child's choice, what if the child of stickuptheirasspuritanwearsfullflannelunionundergarmentswhilehavingsex parent has a child that wants the other family members to be less ashamed?  Twelve year old Johnny might not want his family acting as if his normal, developing body was something to be horrified by and judged for but instead respected and appropriately accepted?  If raised in a less judgmental family, Jessica might not be uncomfortable with the fact that she's developing because she's never been stigmatized for it or taught that her body is a source of embarrassment, so might not feel at all awkward or think anything of the fact that another sibling might share a bed on a vacation.  Should the parents ask those kids and respect what they say even if it differs from the way you feel?  

[Pants]

Jul 12, 2016 10:33:46 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 12, 2016 8:20:29 GMT -5 Pants said:

Right, having the same genitals. Because I'm sure you don't mean if you had two children and one of them had, for example, a birth defect that meant they only had three fingers that you would keep them separated because they had different parts.
I am confused, though, about the argument of this not being sexual. If you are specifically talking about genitals when you make the "same parts" argument, then you are talking about sex and our sexual attitudes as adults and as children. I've been trying to think of the reasons beneath this belief.
I've come up with:
Fear of children being sexual in coed groups, playing doctor, etc. - definitely about sex
Modesty - again, a fear of children being exposed to sexuality, seeing something they "shouldn't", definitely about sex
Fear of molestation or sexual coercion - about sex


What gets me is the assumption that this will only happen in groups of both genders. Meanwhile there's definitely the chance of homosexuals in any group, but the same concerns aren't presented for that variation. And I agree, I don't think there's a right or wrong in this situation necessarily. I do want to dig deeper on people's motivations so that I understand them.

I was really referring to the comfort of the kids, like in GEL's post. I don't know why you decided to jump to all those conclusions. I really don't care if you understand my rationale or not - you do you. I'll do me.

Because I'm trying to understand why this is what makes you comfortable, because it's different than what I think. I find examining people's motivations to be interesting. But because I can't seem to get you to delve any deeper into why you hold those beliefs, I have to put myself in your shoes and try to figure it out. If you can help me understand, I would take that too.
This thread isn't about the comfort of kids. It's about the decisions that parents make on behalf of kids. Im trying to understand why you would make that decision.

[MJ2.0]

I know that when I was a kid, is rather be in sleeping in a room full of girls rather than boys. As a young girl I thought boys were icky. Post puberty I was very self-conscious about my looks and didn't think I was very pretty. At least I wouldn't have to worry about how pretty I look if I'm just surrounded by girls.

Does that help?

[quince]

Not having to worry about how pretty you look if just surrounded by girls?

I'm guessing you were really pretty then. Post-puberty I noticed girls were more critical of looks than boys.    Even here it's mostly the ladies criticizing ugly shoes or unflattering outfits/haircuts. My husband has said that his idea of giving me fashion advice is "wear less clothes."

I think the idea of respecting your kids being uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed as someone of a different gender....is valid- as long as you're also respecting them being uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed as someone of the same gender. I don't think it's bad to want to ensure the privacy of kids, I do think it's bad when people suggest that wanting privacy is silly because "we all have the same parts!"

Like a bunch of posters I shared a bed with my little brother when we traveled and stayed at hotels. When I felt uncomfortable with it, I moved to the floor, but my discomfort wasn't because eww boys (he was my BROTHER, not a boy.), it was because eww, other people. I would think that masturbating in bed with a sibling/bumping into a sibling's erection is equally gross and therefore to be avoided for a boy or a girl.

[MJ2.0]

I didn't learn about how judgy girls were about other girls until later in my teens. And it continues into adulthood.

Yes, comfort is key. I assume that my kid will be more comfortable with other boys. If I'm wrong, I hope he'll tell me and give me some kind of reasoning. As it stands, he seems to like being around both but he is definitely a "boy's boy". Also, he is my only child and I don't see me hosting sleepovers any time soon. When we travel, we sleep in the same bed. I assume that will stop when he gets older.

[Deleted]

I was such a tomboy growing up.  I hated being around girls, dolls, or anything pink.  I preferred sleeping in the treehouse with my male cousins than slumber parties with girls...which I think I would have fought tooth and nail to avoid.  This went on until I was maybe 12 or 13? 

[Pants]

Jul 12, 2016 13:28:39 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I know that when I was a kid, is rather be in sleeping in a room full of girls rather than boys. As a young girl I thought boys were icky. Post puberty I was very self-conscious about my looks and didn't think I was very pretty. At least I wouldn't have to worry about how pretty I look if I'm just surrounded by girls.

Does that help?

It does, thank you. Prior personal experiences wasn't something I considered, so I appreciate the perspective. 

[MJ2.0]

I was a rather chunky kid whose mother forced them to be in Girl Scouts. And learn swimming. 12-year-old me would have died if I had to wear a bathing suit in front of boys. 16-year-old me was on the swim team but I had thinned out some, so it wasn't so bad. I still hated being seen in my suit - but it was because people of both genders were judging now.

Basically, if given a choice I don't want to share a bed with anyone because people are crappy.

Although, I did share a bed with a lesbian at my BFF's bachelorette party and that went perfectly okay....

[Deleted]

Jul 12, 2016 13:57:25 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

I was such a tomboy growing up.  I hated being around girls, dolls, or anything pink.  I preferred sleeping in the treehouse with my male cousins than slumber parties with girls...which I think I would have fought tooth and nail to avoid.  This went on until I was maybe 12 or 13? 

Same here. My sister would have sleepovers at her friends houses and if they had brothers, I would sleep over too. Not sure why it was so but it was. My BFF back then was female though and we had no issues with sharing anything and everything. Her mom was a nurse so I think she had a lot to do with the relaxed attitude. That, and my parents were too busy divorcing and hating each other to be bothered with anything else.

[Peace Of Mind]

Jul 12, 2016 10:33:46 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 12, 2016 8:20:29 GMT -5 Pants said:

Right, having the same genitals. Because I'm sure you don't mean if you had two children and one of them had, for example, a birth defect that meant they only had three fingers that you would keep them separated because they had different parts.
I am confused, though, about the argument of this not being sexual. If you are specifically talking about genitals when you make the "same parts" argument, then you are talking about sex and our sexual attitudes as adults and as children. I've been trying to think of the reasons beneath this belief.
I've come up with:
Fear of children being sexual in coed groups, playing doctor, etc. - definitely about sex
Modesty - again, a fear of children being exposed to sexuality, seeing something they "shouldn't", definitely about sex
Fear of molestation or sexual coercion - about sex


What gets me is the assumption that this will only happen in groups of both genders. Meanwhile there's definitely the chance of homosexuals in any group, but the same concerns aren't presented for that variation. And I agree, I don't think there's a right or wrong in this situation necessarily. I do want to dig deeper on people's motivations so that I understand them.

I was really referring to the comfort of the kids, like in GEL's post. I don't know why you decided to jump to all those conclusions. I really don't care if you understand my rationale or not - you do you. I'll do me.

That sounds sexual to me!   

I've noticed today some parents are comfortable allowing male and female children to sleep over together and some parents just aren't comfortable with it at all but even if they are teenagers no locked doors are a stipulation (or usually doors left cracked opened) and it's usually in groups of kids - not pairs if the opposite sex.  If it's same sex kids one is in the bed and the other or others are in sleeping bags or on blow up mattresses.   Only very young kids who are like siblings of the opposite sex (or they are/were only children) are allowed to sleep in the same room but there were usually larger beds where they all piled in or there were bunk beds or sleeping bags involved. 

But no one is poor around here where room is a factor.   Or they live like they're not poor in their giant houses. 

When I was a kid we could sleep in the same bed.  My besties were always girls though.  Boys wouldn't be caught dead in the same bed with their friends because they were all too cool for school for such things and were also homophobic (or pretended to be). 

[MJ2.0]

Jul 12, 2016 12:23:04 GMT -5 milee said:

Jul 12, 2016 9:51:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Why don't you ask your kids, for Heaven's sake. Not every child of every hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent has children that feel the same way. If they are uncomfortable, that's enough of a reason if I'm the parent. Twelve year old Johnny might not want his sister, in her sleep, rolling over against his pee-woody. 12 year old Jessica may be uncomfortable with the fact that she is developing and might not want her 10 year old brother in bed with her. Ask your kids and respect what they tell you even if it differs from the way you feel. If they are fine with it...fine. If they aren't, look for other arrangements.  Make it sexual if you want.  Who cares?  Their privacy should be respected for whatever reason they are asking for it.

The phrasing you use to describe people who do not feel that it is traumatic or unusual for family members to see each other naked or to share sleeping arrangements in a nonsexual way implies a heavy amount of judgment.

Is it really about respecting a child's choice or about forcing a certain set of ideas on them?  If it's about a child's choice, what if the child of stickuptheirasspuritanwearsfullflannelunionundergarmentswhilehavingsex parent has a child that wants the other family members to be less ashamed?  Twelve year old Johnny might not want his family acting as if his normal, developing body was something to be horrified by and judged for but instead respected and appropriately accepted?  If raised in a less judgmental family, Jessica might not be uncomfortable with the fact that she's developing because she's never been stigmatized for it or taught that her body is a source of embarrassment, so might not feel at all awkward or think anything of the fact that another sibling might share a bed on a vacation.  Should the parents ask those kids and respect what they say even if it differs from the way you feel?  

I'm trying to take a more progressive approach than I grew up with. Not sure how I will handle potential same sex sleepovers yet, but I at least don't want him to be ashamed of his body in any way. He is actually starting to pay attention to my body and is noticing how it's different from his. That's okay, but he expresses his noticing of differences by pointing and touching me in said places. Not sexually of course, but I am not comfortable with that. I am not comfortable with ANYONE excessively touching me anywhere! Lol.


I like changing in private, but I help him change because he's 4. I'm starting to help him less now though. But does changing in private mean there's some sort of shame attached? I just think this stuff is much more "grey area" than you realize.

[Green Eyed Lady]

No.  There is no shame attached to being modest. There's no shame attached to not being modest. It's just the way a person is and it probably is a product of how some were raised. Doesn't matter. It's how you feel. I'm not one who thinks there is any shame in being modest and private. That doesn't make me prudish or ashamed anymore than it makes those who are not some kind of skanky slut. People are what they are and they feel like they feel.   I don't care if you (the general you) can fully change on the beach in front of everyone. Why should you (the general you) care if I don't prefer to do so?  I think children are probably as varied in their degrees of modestly as adults are and that should, in my opinion, be respected.

[zibazinski]

My son is very private and my daughter could care less. NO ONE wants to sleep with her because she's all over the bed. This started when she was little and continues to this day. The fact that no one would share a bed with her on vacation started us on rollaways when we traveled. Two beds and a rollaway. Perfect.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jul 12, 2016 22:25:16 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

My son is very private and my daughter could care less. NO ONE wants to sleep with her because she's all over the bed. This started when she was little and continues to this day. The fact that no one would share a bed with her on vacation started us on rollaways when we traveled. Two beds and a rollaway. Perfect.

Your daughter must be my sister.  I'm traumatized by having to sleep with her until I was 6.  After about a year of finding me on the floor in the morning, my parents finally got us twin beds.  I still hate sleeping with somebody.

[tloonya]

Jul 12, 2016 11:25:30 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sometimes my DS and DD share a bed at home, on vacation, or the air mattress when we "camp" outside in the screen house.

If they don't want to, they don't have to. No big deal.

Do you sleep next to them with a stranger man?

[tloonya]

Jul 12, 2016 9:51:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Why don't you ask your kids, for Heaven's sake. Not every child of every hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent has children that feel the same way. If they are uncomfortable, that's enough of a reason if I'm the parent. Twelve year old Johnny might not want his sister, in her sleep, rolling over against his pee-woody. 12 year old Jessica may be uncomfortable with the fact that she is developing and might not want her 10 year old brother in bed with her. Ask your kids and respect what they tell you even if it differs from the way you feel. If they are fine with it...fine. If they aren't, look for other arrangements.  Make it sexual if you want.  Who cares?  Their privacy should be respected for whatever reason they are asking for it.

Those kids are petrified of their father. They are not arguing with his decisions. Girl is crying every time she has to leave her mom and go to spend time with Dad. Last night she was picked up all in tears and mom couldn't do anything about it. Court order!

[tloonya]

Jul 12, 2016 17:16:46 GMT -5 Peace Of Mind said:

Jul 12, 2016 10:33:46 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I was really referring to the comfort of the kids, like in GEL's post. I don't know why you decided to jump to all those conclusions. I really don't care if you understand my rationale or not - you do you. I'll do me.

That sounds sexual to me!    

I though I was the only one!

[swamp]

Jul 13, 2016 9:52:35 GMT -5 tloonya said:

Jul 12, 2016 11:25:30 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sometimes my DS and DD share a bed at home, on vacation, or the air mattress when we "camp" outside in the screen house.

If they don't want to, they don't have to. No big deal.

Do you sleep next to them with a stranger man?

Why would you ask that?

I have a husband. I'm faithful to him. I don't sleep with strange men.

[weltschmerz]

Jul 12, 2016 18:28:24 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

No.  There is no shame attached to being modest. There's no shame attached to not being modest. It's just the way a person is and it probably is a product of how some were raised. Doesn't matter. It's how you feel. I'm not one who thinks there is any shame in being modest and private. That doesn't make me prudish or ashamed anymore than it makes those who are not some kind of skanky slut. People are what they are and they feel like they feel.   I don't care if you (the general you) can fully change on the beach in front of everyone. Why should you (the general you) care if I don't prefer to do so?  I think children are probably as varied in their degrees of modestly as adults are and that should, in my opinion, be respected.

Is that why you said this? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jul 13, 2016 12:16:56 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jul 12, 2016 18:28:24 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

No.  There is no shame attached to being modest. There's no shame attached to not being modest. It's just the way a person is and it probably is a product of how some were raised. Doesn't matter. It's how you feel. I'm not one who thinks there is any shame in being modest and private. That doesn't make me prudish or ashamed anymore than it makes those who are not some kind of skanky slut. People are what they are and they feel like they feel.   I don't care if you (the general you) can fully change on the beach in front of everyone. Why should you (the general you) care if I don't prefer to do so?  I think children are probably as varied in their degrees of modestly as adults are and that should, in my opinion, be respected.

Is that why you said this? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent

No. That's not why I said it. I said it jokingly as most of my friends are that way and I surely don't have an issue with them.  I tell them to go burn incense and chant all the time...it's a joke. They tell me to go read my Bible. It's all in fun because while we love and respect one another, we sill remember what fun is. It's not for everybody.

[weltschmerz]

Jul 13, 2016 12:25:52 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Jul 13, 2016 12:16:56 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Is that why you said this? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent

No. That's not why I said it. I said it jokingly as most of my friends are that way and I surely don't have an issue with them.  I tell them to go burn incense and chant all the time...it's a joke. They tell me to go read my Bible. It's all in fun because while we love and respect one another, we sill remember what fun is. It's not for everybody.

Stickupyourassbiblebangingseventeenthcenturyreligiouspurtian.

All in fun. I mean it in the most complimentary way possible. Joke, you know.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Lol...angry at the world again today, Weltz?   That wasn't bad for an amateur!   

[weltschmerz]

Jul 13, 2016 13:15:15 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Lol...angry at the world again today, Weltz?   That wasn't bad for an amateur!   

No more than you, my dear. You're the one who started with the judgemental name-calling, then pretended it was a joke.
Nice deflection, by the way. Don't address the meat of the post, just accuse me of being angry.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jul 13, 2016 13:19:46 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jul 13, 2016 13:15:15 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Lol...angry at the world again today, Weltz?   That wasn't bad for an amateur!   

No more than you, my dear. You're the one who started with the judgemental name-calling, then pretended it was a joke.
Nice deflection, by the way. Don't address the meat of the post, just accuse me of being angry.

I didn't accuse you. I just asked you. Unlike you, I don't pretend I read minds. I addressed every word you said. You just don't like my answer because it makes you looks silly for stomping on to the boards looking for someone to take you anger out on. I really don't care if you believe me or not.

[weltschmerz]

Jul 13, 2016 13:30:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Jul 13, 2016 13:19:46 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

No more than you, my dear. You're the one who started with the judgemental name-calling, then pretended it was a joke.
Nice deflection, by the way. Don't address the meat of the post, just accuse me of being angry.

I didn't accuse you. I just asked you. Unlike you, I don't pretend I read minds. I addressed every word you said. You just don't like my answer because it makes you looks silly for stomping on to the boards looking for someone to take you anger out on. I really don't care if you believe me or not.

You must be the one angry at the world. You said there's no shame in it, then launched into judgemental insults. I just called you on it, and you got your hackles up.

"hippydippynoinhibitionslookatmenaked parent"

[Green Eyed Lady]

Yes. That's what happened, Weltz. Just calm down.  You are right...absolutely right. Everything is ok now.

[weltschmerz]

Jul 13, 2016 13:52:10 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Yes. That's what happened, Weltz. Just calm down.  You are right...absolutely right. Everything is ok now.

Thank you. We finally agree on something.