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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 18:42:17 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 18:45:35 GMT -5
It's a whole movement...
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 15, 2016 19:32:44 GMT -5
Of course not. Bigotry comes in where there is a willingness to mistreat or deny rights to others based solely on who or what they are.
So someone who identifies as a woman (or girl) who still has a penis has a right to change their clothes and take a shower in front of other women and/or girls?? Seriously? A right? I agree that if they have had sex reassignment surgery then they have that right. My understanding is that after this surgery is performed that one can change his or her birth certificate to show their new sex. Even as a transgender person I can agree with you here. I fully understand being uncomfortable is someone has different parts and is changing in a locker room or in a shower, naked. However many transgender people aren't even willing to be naked in front of other's for the fact that they're uncomfortable that they have these parts. There hasn't actually been in legit cases where a trans person felt the need to shower naked or change naked in front of others. But I do believe if they've had the surgery this should be NO issue at all. But I totally understand why someone would not want them in the locker room or showers if they hadn't had any surgeries. I however don't get the bathroom thing at all. A school in Illinois got sued over the issue of a transgender student who identified as a female not being given complete access to the female locker room: www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/11/03/feds-say-illinois-school-district-broke-law-by-banning-trans-student-from-girls-locker-room/
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 15, 2016 19:37:17 GMT -5
I say all my elementary schooling was in Catholic schools. But I did attend public junior high school for grades seven and eight. The junior high school had an indoor, 50 yard length pool. Swimming was part of the PE curriculum. I was a very good swimmer and diver so I enjoyed that activity and got my junior Red Cross lifeguard certificate there. But some of the male students didn't like swimming as they were were poor swimmers or could not swim at all. Apparently over the years, the students who hated swimming would get out of swimming each day by telling the gym teachers they forgot to bring their bathing suit to school for gym/swiming class. So what did the school do? They said no boys would wear swimming suits. Boys could not wear just their underpants. They boys simply went bare ass. Modesty was tossed out the door. That was awkward for some of the students because some boys were starting to go through puberty and some weren't. Some of the boys in my class were a year older than the rest of us because they were held back a grade earlier in their school life. By the end of eight grade and when I left, there were still some boys who had not started the physical changes of puberty. It was very awkward and embarassing for some of the more physically immature boys. I have no idea/don't remember if the girls had to swim bare assed too. I have always wondered if there were unseen eyes ogling us boys during swimming class. Kind of creepy as I think back about it. The school still exists and probably the pool too. I wonder if the boys were finally able to wear swim suits and for those who did not bring a suit to school, did they now starting failing them in gym class as opposed to the boys having to swim naked? Yeah, definitely kind of creepy and ridiculous.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 15, 2016 20:08:34 GMT -5
...I have always wondered if there were unseen eyes ogling us boys during swimming class. Kind of creepy as I think back about it. The school still exists and probably the pool too. I wonder if the boys were finally able to wear swim suits and for those who did not bring a suit to school, did they now starting failing them in gym class as opposed to the boys having to swim naked? Yeah, definitely kind of creepy and ridiculous. After I wrote that I searched the internet for the jr. high school and if there was any mention of nude swimming in the school. I found no mention for that particular school. But there are articles about nude swimming at schools and it seemed to be a common practice up until the late 60s in schools with pools. So maybe it wasn't that creepy as it was often the norm: Historic Archives - Nude Male Swimming
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 20:23:46 GMT -5
No. It's creepy. People of authority forcing nudity is creepy.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 15, 2016 21:11:12 GMT -5
No. It's creepy. People of authority forcing nudity is creepy. Apparently, the American Public Health Association recommended nude swiiming for indoor school pools (boys only) because it was thought bathing suits harbored cholera and typhus bacteria and infected the pool water. "The Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) was set up in 1842 with a mission to provide an education programme and healthy sports to young men. The YMCA was responsible for providing swimming classes to countless numbers of American boys and teenagers. This included swimming in indoor pools. Swimming trunks were not permitted in their pools.[22] InLincoln, Nebraska in 1958, for example, learners were told just to bring a towel and not to bring trunks. In Sheboygan, Wisconsin in 1954, the Recreation Department reported that 404 youngsters had attended an 11-day swimming course where the boys were unhampered by bathing suits.[23] When the YMCA began to admit females in the early 1960s, the wearing of bathing suits became a requirement. In Portland, Ohio in 1915, all boys and girls wore torso swimming costumes and the pool was drained every 10 days. The problem was that woollen bathing suits were unhealthy and harboured the cholera bacteria and typhus bacteria which infected the water in the pool. Both the cholera and the typhus diseases could be fatal. As a precaution, the pool was completely drained every 10 days. In 1910, Sand filtration was introduced which reduced the number of bacteria present, but the safest way was not to wear woollen suits, and this approach was endorsed by the American Public Health Association(APHA). American high school and junior high school swimming in many states had policies that followed APHA guidelines. The guideline were published every three years, and from 1926 until 1962 every edition recommended nude swimming. In other states, all boys and girls bathed in clothes. The 1937 Administration of Health and Physical Recreation training manual stated: Nude bathing for boys is practiced universally, in a few schools girls may swim nude and this is the most sanitary methodGirls were encouraged not to be athletic and were assumed to be more body conscious and allowed a simple unadorned undyed tank suit. Wiki: Nude SwimmingIt was what it was I guess.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on May 15, 2016 21:34:32 GMT -5
My brother went to the Y to swim and was shocked they didn't allow suits. I think he refused to swim and never went back, he was born in 1949 and was 10 or slightly older. I imagine many pervs liked seeing naked boys.
As to the transgendered it is a non issue long term except in schools. How do you know what is on anyone's birth certificate? In schools they might track you changing your name so know you started as Bruce and became Caitlin or started as Sally and became Bob but in real life like Target you look like a male or female you will use the rest room you look like. Imagine someone who had hormonal treatments to gain breast or biceps then dressed to match the gender using the one on the birth certificate. A person with a full beard and muscles who looks male is male no matter what the private parts look like or birth certificate. Look at Chas Bono, he was born Chastity but now bearded, do you want him in the rest room with your daughter?
Who is going to police the restrooms and make people show birth certificates and prove what parts they have? Will men check all the people using men's room to see that they are equipped and woman check the woman rest room users to assure they are really woman? Do you really want someone in the bathroom with your child checking their privates?
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milee
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Post by milee on May 15, 2016 22:55:19 GMT -5
The problem was that woollen bathing suits were unhealthy and harboured the cholera bacteria and typhus bacteria OMG, just reading about a bathing suit made of wool is making me itch all over. That would be an excellent way to torture our enemies - make them wear woolen skivvies. Some of the new wool blends (like Merino) are less irritating than wool in the past, but I'm guessing most of these wool suits weren't of the new, softer stuff. Yikes.
I thought the story about being made to swim naked was bad, but if I had to choose between a bathing suit made of wool and being naked I'd have to go with being naked. Pretty sure if I tried on a wool suit, I'd immediately be covered with a huge rash and drown because I was scratching too much to be able to swim.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 16, 2016 0:41:28 GMT -5
My brother went to the Y to swim and was shocked they didn't allow suits. I think he refused to swim and never went back, he was born in 1949 and was 10 or slightly older. I imagine many pervs liked seeing naked boys. As to the transgendered it is a non issue long term except in schools. How do you know what is on anyone's birth certificate? In schools they might track you changing your name so know you started as Bruce and became Caitlin or started as Sally and became Bob but in real life like Target you look like a male or female you will use the rest room you look like. Imagine someone who had hormonal treatments to gain breast or biceps then dressed to match the gender using the one on the birth certificate. A person with a full beard and muscles who looks male is male no matter what the private parts look like or birth certificate. Look at Chas Bono, he was born Chastity but now bearded, do you want him in the rest room with your daughter? Who is going to police the restrooms and make people show birth certificates and prove what parts they have? Will men check all the people using men's room to see that they are equipped and woman check the woman rest room users to assure they are really woman? Do you really want someone in the bathroom with your child checking their privates?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 16, 2016 21:11:32 GMT -5
Yeah, definitely kind of creepy and ridiculous. After I wrote that I searched the internet for the jr. high school and if there was any mention of nude swimming in the school. I found no mention for that particular school. But there are articles about nude swimming at schools and it seemed to be a common practice up until the late 60s in schools with pools. So maybe it wasn't that creepy as it was often the norm: Historic Archives - Nude Male Swimming It also may have been convenient reasoning at the time to allow those with interests in the same sex or pedophiles with an interest in boys to umm satisfy their desires in a socially acceptable way. Blacks were considered a lesser species possibly not even human, years ago, I think in part to justify how society was treating them.
What cholera did not attack girls? Even though their suits would have been twice as large and therefore harbor roughly double the bacteria?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 16, 2016 21:15:26 GMT -5
No. It's creepy. People of authority forcing nudity is creepy. Apparently, the American Public Health Association recommended nude swiiming for indoor school pools (boys only) because it was thought bathing suits harbored cholera and typhus bacteria and infected the pool water. "The Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) was set up in 1842 with a mission to provide an education programme and healthy sports to young men. The YMCA was responsible for providing swimming classes to countless numbers of American boys and teenagers. This included swimming in indoor pools. Swimming trunks were not permitted in their pools.[22] InLincoln, Nebraska in 1958, for example, learners were told just to bring a towel and not to bring trunks. In Sheboygan, Wisconsin in 1954, the Recreation Department reported that 404 youngsters had attended an 11-day swimming course where the boys were unhampered by bathing suits.[23] When the YMCA began to admit females in the early 1960s, the wearing of bathing suits became a requirement. In Portland, Ohio in 1915, all boys and girls wore torso swimming costumes and the pool was drained every 10 days. The problem was that woollen bathing suits were unhealthy and harboured the cholera bacteria and typhus bacteria which infected the water in the pool. Both the cholera and the typhus diseases could be fatal. As a precaution, the pool was completely drained every 10 days. In 1910, Sand filtration was introduced which reduced the number of bacteria present, but the safest way was not to wear woollen suits, and this approach was endorsed by the American Public Health Association(APHA). American high school and junior high school swimming in many states had policies that followed APHA guidelines. The guideline were published every three years, and from 1926 until 1962 every edition recommended nude swimming. In other states, all boys and girls bathed in clothes. The 1937 Administration of Health and Physical Recreation training manual stated: Nude bathing for boys is practiced universally, in a few schools girls may swim nude and this is the most sanitary methodGirls were encouraged not to be athletic and were assumed to be more body conscious and allowed a simple unadorned undyed tank suit. Wiki: Nude SwimmingIt was what it was I guess. Fine.
I hadn't read this yet. It sounds like it might be reasonable explanation. In my defense, I was born in the 60s.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 16, 2016 21:50:48 GMT -5
Well said. It unfortunately it will still be true in many places, many cases.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 16, 2016 21:50:59 GMT -5
Apparently, the American Public Health Association recommended nude swiiming for indoor school pools (boys only) because it was thought bathing suits harbored cholera and typhus bacteria and infected the pool water. "The Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) was set up in 1842 with a mission to provide an education programme and healthy sports to young men. The YMCA was responsible for providing swimming classes to countless numbers of American boys and teenagers. This included swimming in indoor pools. Swimming trunks were not permitted in their pools.[22] InLincoln, Nebraska in 1958, for example, learners were told just to bring a towel and not to bring trunks. In Sheboygan, Wisconsin in 1954, the Recreation Department reported that 404 youngsters had attended an 11-day swimming course where the boys were unhampered by bathing suits.[23] When the YMCA began to admit females in the early 1960s, the wearing of bathing suits became a requirement. In Portland, Ohio in 1915, all boys and girls wore torso swimming costumes and the pool was drained every 10 days. The problem was that woollen bathing suits were unhealthy and harboured the cholera bacteria and typhus bacteria which infected the water in the pool. Both the cholera and the typhus diseases could be fatal. As a precaution, the pool was completely drained every 10 days. In 1910, Sand filtration was introduced which reduced the number of bacteria present, but the safest way was not to wear woollen suits, and this approach was endorsed by the American Public Health Association(APHA). American high school and junior high school swimming in many states had policies that followed APHA guidelines. The guideline were published every three years, and from 1926 until 1962 every edition recommended nude swimming. In other states, all boys and girls bathed in clothes. The 1937 Administration of Health and Physical Recreation training manual stated: Nude bathing for boys is practiced universally, in a few schools girls may swim nude and this is the most sanitary methodGirls were encouraged not to be athletic and were assumed to be more body conscious and allowed a simple unadorned undyed tank suit. Wiki: Nude SwimmingIt was what it was I guess. Fine.
I hadn't read this yet. It sounds like it might be reasonable explanation. In my defense, I was born in the 60s.
I was born in '51 so the health recommendation would still have been active for a while.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 17, 2016 8:30:12 GMT -5
The subject was on the radio the other day and my daughter proudly stated "My school is okay, because we have a transgender bathroom." I told her that, although many are comfortable with that solution, that is the same problem as "separate but equal" and her school is actually breaking the law if they require transgendered students to use only that bathroom. I could see her trying to process all the angles of the situation.
- Yes, true, separate but equal. That is bad. - But, reasonable accommodations... - But, everyone is happy... - Or...maybe they are not... - Wait...what?
I don't think she has fully reached a conclusion yet.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 17, 2016 9:50:49 GMT -5
I still think a unisex bathroom with more smaller stalls and no urinals would be a fine solution - even for schools. I think it would actually curb bullying behavior in bathrooms because as kids to through puberty, they'll actually care about how they come off to the opposite sex (or whoever they're attracted to). I don't know many girls who'd want boys to see them as super mean and aggressive and vice versa.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 17, 2016 10:25:57 GMT -5
That is what the school in the story I linked in #175 did. And it was the students who took the lead all the way. Thought of the idea, proposed it to administrators, and did the outreach to explain it to the rest of the student body. It is apparently going very well.
And with regard to the idea of "separate but equal" in the prior post, it may not be that in the daughter's school. Is it "transgender bathroom" only open to those students as a separate accommodation to them, or with them required to use it, or is it "gender-neutral" open to everybody?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 17, 2016 11:28:05 GMT -5
I mean personally as a transgender person I don't really care what bathroom I use rather it's a men's bathroom or a unisex bathroom. I however do not want to be using the woman's bathroom because I don't pass as a woman.
And a girl could be uncomfortable thinking I'm a cismale walking in and not think i'm a transmale. Guys that know I'm trans don't care if I use the restroom and the guys that don't know me, wouldn't know I'm not trans so it hasn't been an issue for me.
However, the point is these students, transgender students need a place to pee.
Some people actually say "I'm not comfortable with a transmale or a transwoman in my bathroom," well if there's no place for them to pee where do they go? -_- That's just a way of trying to make them not want to be who they are.
The solution can't be you go to the bathroom that you were identified at birth because many transgender people wouldn't even pass as that gender.
I don't really care what's done as long as that's not the solution. I don't care if I'm to use a unisex bathroom or the males' restroom but ONE does need to be allowed some where to pee.
I know many transgender people that feel the same way...we just need to have a place to pee.
Although, I get that transgender students having to use a unisex bathroom may put the label on them but that's why I don't think it should be labeled the "Transgender only" bathroom. Just call it a unisex bathroom and it's free range for anyone to use it.
I know nobody at college thinks twice when someone uses the unisex bathrooms around here. Heck, my high school used to have unisex bathrooms before "Trans issues" was even in the public and people used it all the time.
-- Also, I don't know I have seen some students not want the transgender child around, but a lot of Universities and a lot of High School student bodies have backed up the transgender students.
--
ALSO! I was so excited to see a transman teaching at a Catholic high school who recently came out! It was a private school so they did have the right to fire the man. BUT These nuns, these beautiful, lovely nuns said they thought hard about it and realized God would tell them not to judge and pray for the man and let this man keep his job.
I was born and raised Catholic and my former church banned me from services. I guess you could say that the new Pope is pretty amazing with this as well, not to judge. It gave me so much hope to see the nuns of that school be so accepting and use their religion to promote love and not hate toward this man.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 17, 2016 11:30:30 GMT -5
Also, I know an Elementary School teacher that has gotten rid of "Male" and "Female" bathrooms. It isn't expensive to do.
She simply changed the sign of one of the restrooms in her class to "Bathroom." and put another sign over the other bathroom that said "Storage." =P
The kids don't complain. The parent's don't complain. Everyone just uses that bathroom.
It is really as simple as changing the signs to say "Bathroom."
This school also has unisex bathrooms all throughout the building.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2016 18:51:46 GMT -5
Also, I know an Elementary School teacher that has gotten rid of "Male" and "Female" bathrooms. It isn't expensive to do. She simply changed the sign of one of the restrooms in her class to "Bathroom." and put another sign over the other bathroom that said "Storage." =P The kids don't complain. The parent's don't complain. Everyone just uses that bathroom. It is really as simple as changing the signs to say "Bathroom." This school also has unisex bathrooms all throughout the building. And the sky didn't fall? The building didn't implode? The world didn't end? How can this be explained?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 18, 2016 18:22:43 GMT -5
That is what the school in the story I linked in #175 did. And it was the students who took the lead all the way. Thought of the idea, proposed it to administrators, and did the outreach to explain it to the rest of the student body. It is apparently going very well.
And with regard to the idea of "separate but equal" in the prior post, it may not be that in the daughter's school. Is it "transgender bathroom" only open to those students as a separate accommodation to them, or with them required to use it, or is it "gender-neutral" open to everybody? Neither I nor my daughter know if the Transgender bathroom at the school is an offering or a requirement.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 18, 2016 20:23:27 GMT -5
www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment^ And now stuff like this is starting to happen. The world was just fine with transgender people using the bathroom until these laws got brought into the public. There WERE NO cases of transgender people attacking cisgender people in the bathroom. NO cases of a man claiming to be transgender to get into the restroom, that wasn't transgender. Now these laws bringing it into the light is just giving men the ideas to do this, before it was never an idea, now it just fills the perverted man with an idea to do so. Rather the law is in fact or not the man will do it either way. Trans people before the law were using the bathrooms without much issues for cis and trans people. AND NOW these laws are fueling fire to the point people are starting to accuse even cis woman that aren't up to their standards of feminine enough that they may be trans and trying to kick them out of the restroom. Like holy cow! -- Now restrooms really are unfriendly to any woman that isn't deemed 'feminine' enough.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 21:09:00 GMT -5
Maybe women should stop wearing pants.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2016 22:53:21 GMT -5
I mean... if we make it a law that if people are going to insist on wearing clothing, that women MUST wear skirts or dresses and men MUST wear pants... the whole thing will be solved! (also , for the record)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2016 9:02:13 GMT -5
AND NOW these laws are fueling fire to the point people are starting to accuse even cis woman that aren't up to their standards of feminine enough that they may be trans and trying to kick them out of the restroom.
This is what happens when you assume that you can easily tell who was "born a man" vs "born a woman".
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on May 19, 2016 11:39:53 GMT -5
A long time ago, I had a guy once ask me if my boss used to be a man. She was dressed the most "girly" of anyone there, but she is tall and has the long time smoker's voice. So, her deeper voice and perfectly proportional to her hands made him think she used to be a guy. Because, you can just tell, right?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 19, 2016 13:05:20 GMT -5
I think of Rupal when it comes to being able "tell" a man from a woman.
DH and I were watching the game show channel when they advertised Skin Wars. There was a male judge and DH goes "wait a minute? Is that Rupal?"
I told him it was and he said "Holy crap I never would have guessed". Only his voice was familiar enough for DH to recognize him out of drag.
If it's so easy to tell the sexes apart it should have been extremely easy for DH to recognize Rupal out of his stage character.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on May 19, 2016 13:36:59 GMT -5
So, prior to entering public restrooms, I will be sure to flash my genitalia to the potty monitor, and keep a copy of my birth certificate on-hand so people can see that they match. Oh, but since my birth certificate only has my name, I guess I should carry a copy of my photo ID along with it, and a copy of my marriage ceritificate validating the change in last names.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 14:17:05 GMT -5
They should just go straight to DNA testing at the door. Anyone with a Y has to use the men's room...but then you have the XXY females. It takes a couple weeks too. Maybe we should just all be tested and microchipped.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 19, 2016 14:24:03 GMT -5
So, prior to entering public restrooms, I will be sure to flash my genitalia to the potty monitor, and keep a copy of my birth certificate on-hand so people can see that they match. Oh, but since my birth certificate only has my name, I guess I should carry a copy of my photo ID along with it, and a copy of my marriage ceritificate validating the change in last names. The Clam Cam.
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