tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 14, 2016 16:56:10 GMT -5
To borrow another's comment on another thread: "if you understood what this meant, it would cut down your post count by about 50%."
And no, it is not and has never been "so long as they do it where and how society wants." The standard is and should be "as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others while doing so."
It's really not a difficult concept.
I completely agree we are not discussing a difficult concept. We are talking about bigotry against people who have different values then you do. And I understand what you think this means. If one person is allowed freedom to discriminate we have to accept that everyone can. How about you stand firm on your belief and that completely stops the everyone can charade. Everyone won't. It doesn't matter if one person won't, or even if many people won't. The idea is still ethically invalid and cannot be legitimately allowed to stand. The idea of "if one can, then all can" is the logical extreme and is meant to demonstrate that. And societal acceptance of that idea means nothing less than the absence of a truly free society.
I know you don't get that. Your "Everyone won't" comment proves you don't get that. You have never gotten that, and there is no evidence to suggest that you will ever get that. There are two discussions. One is the simple, concrete one about a particular case. The other is the abstract, theoretical one about the concept itself. That is the one I generally find myself interested in. You seem to conflate the two.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 14, 2016 16:56:34 GMT -5
But honestly? Hardly anybody practices showering naked or changing naked anywhere anymore. This is not practiced or forced on students anymore.
In fact, students have actually been MORE apart to defend transgender students, it's generally the parents that are throwing a fit or the adults in administration. There's been many cases where the schools students go up against the adults to try to defend the transgender's 'rights.'"
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on May 14, 2016 16:58:56 GMT -5
Of course not. Bigotry comes in where there is a willingness to mistreat or deny rights to others based solely on who or what they are.
So someone who identifies as a woman (or girl) who still has a penis has a right to change their clothes and take a shower in front of other women and/or girls?? Seriously? A right? I agree that if they have had sex reassignment surgery then they have that right. My understanding is that after this surgery is performed that one can change his or her birth certificate to show their new sex. Even as a transgender person I can agree with you here. I fully understand being uncomfortable is someone has different parts and is changing in a locker room or in a shower, naked. However many transgender people aren't even willing to be naked in front of other's for the fact that they're uncomfortable that they have these parts. There hasn't actually been in legit cases where a trans person felt the need to shower naked or change naked in front of others. But I do believe if they've had the surgery this should be NO issue at all. But I totally understand why someone would not want them in the locker room or showers if they hadn't had any surgeries. I however don't get the bathroom thing at all. Sharing the bathroom is ok with me, personally.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2016 17:07:11 GMT -5
I completely agree we are not discussing a difficult concept. We are talking about bigotry against people who have different values then you do. And I understand what you think this means. If one person is allowed freedom to discriminate we have to accept that everyone can. How about you stand firm on your belief and that completely stops the everyone can charade. Everyone won't.
It doesn't matter if one person won't, or even if many people won't. The idea is still ethically invalid and cannot be legitimately allowed to stand. The idea of "if one can, then all can" is the logical extreme and is meant to demonstrate that. And societal acceptance of that idea means nothing less than the absence of a truly free society.
I know you don't get that. Your "Everyone won't" comment proves you don't get that. You have never gotten that, and there is no evidence to suggest that you will ever get that. There are two discussions. One is the simple, concrete one about a particular case. The other is the abstract, theoretical one about the concept itself. That is the one I generally find myself interested in. You seem to conflate the two.
What happens if everyone stands in Seattle on the 3rd of next month? Should we have a law to prevent that tragedy? Hopefully I dont get your argument, because I think it is one of the dumbest arguments that can be made.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 14, 2016 17:10:04 GMT -5
Even as a transgender person I can agree with you here. I fully understand being uncomfortable is someone has different parts and is changing in a locker room or in a shower, naked. However many transgender people aren't even willing to be naked in front of other's for the fact that they're uncomfortable that they have these parts. There hasn't actually been in legit cases where a trans person felt the need to shower naked or change naked in front of others. But I do believe if they've had the surgery this should be NO issue at all. But I totally understand why someone would not want them in the locker room or showers if they hadn't had any surgeries. I however don't get the bathroom thing at all. Sharing the bathroom is ok with me, personally. I know. I've read your concerns and I was just stating I totally understand your concerns concerning the locker room and showers, even as a transgender person. And I for one before surgery would have never been comfortable to change in a locker room or shower without surgery. Actually I'm not comfortable even after surgery. I've never been comfortable changing naked in front of anyone before transition and after.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 14, 2016 17:17:04 GMT -5
Also everyone is ALLOWED to have their own religious rights, but they can't use those 'religious' rights to deny someone else their rights.
They can go to church and pray. They have the religious freedom to do so. Church is separate from state. However, when your "religion" infringes on someone else's rights that is not okay. Just because you believe your religion says it isn't okay does NOT mean you can take away someone else's rights.
Also, it is NOT OKAY to say "Oh, I'm not selling to you, or saving you because you're transgender, or you're gay." because than you really oughta start denying people that cheat, people that have babies before marriage, and people that have sex before marriage. It's not OKAY to deny one person because they're 'sinning' a service but turn around and serve other's that sin every day.
HECK the AMISH even sell their bake goods and their items to people all the time. The amish near me do all the time because they're not infringing their life, they're simply purchasing something and leaving.
This is not following and practicing your religion. This IS choosing what you believe is a worse sin and punishing that person and just choosing what sins to dismiss and what not to dismiss.
--- If someone wants to choose to only serve "religious" people although some gays and trans people are religious they should have a sign saying "Religious people only." but that sure sounds like "Whites only." to me.
There once was a time that was allowed because they said it was "Ungodly" to serve blacks. People are always finding ways to use the bible for an excuse to not serve people in a life style they didn't like.
EVEN JESUS served people that were gay, and people that's lifestyles he didn't agree with.
What would Jesus do? He would feed the gay man and the bible has quotes of this >.>
-- A person from the LGBTQ isn't taking away your right to pray and go to church. Selling them something or saving their life isn't going to make you turn "gay." heck... you don't even need to talk to them, you take their money, you let them leave. You're not going to make them not be gay, and they're not going to make you not believe in God.
Yes, I fully understand a priest denying a gay marriage though... as that IS church should be separate from state. And if you have a business catering only to religious people, alright.
But if you're running a business that is not affiliated with a church and it is open for the public THAN it IS open for the public no matter who that person is.
I don't know too though? When I was in retail "the customer was always right," even when they were wrong. This included the Muslims, this included the Catholics, this included the gay couple, this included atheists.
If you're going to deny people on religious grounds than you better start denying everyone else against your religion that does or that IS discrimination. Because you're simply picking and choosing which sin you hate the most and even catering to people that aren't part of your religion.
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on May 14, 2016 17:22:34 GMT -5
Sharing the bathroom is ok with me, personally. I know. I've read your concerns and I was just stating I totally understand your concerns concerning the locker room and showers, even as a transgender person. And I for one before surgery would have never been comfortable to change in a locker room or shower without surgery. Actually I'm not comfortable even after surgery. I've never been comfortable changing naked in front of anyone before transition and after. I don't like changing in front of others, either. I will admit; I can't wrap my head around being transgender. I really try, but I'm just not there yet. I really appreciate your posts because they help me see things from the transgender perspective. Hopefully, I will get there one day. Thanks again for your perspective.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 14, 2016 17:34:44 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if one person won't, or even if many people won't. The idea is still ethically invalid and cannot be legitimately allowed to stand. The idea of "if one can, then all can" is the logical extreme and is meant to demonstrate that. And societal acceptance of that idea means nothing less than the absence of a truly free society.
I know you don't get that. Your "Everyone won't" comment proves you don't get that. You have never gotten that, and there is no evidence to suggest that you will ever get that. There are two discussions. One is the simple, concrete one about a particular case. The other is the abstract, theoretical one about the concept itself. That is the one I generally find myself interested in. You seem to conflate the two.
What happens if everyone stands in Seattle on the 3rd of next month? Should we have a law to prevent that tragedy? Hopefully I dont get your argument, because I think it is one of the dumbest arguments that can be made. I don't think you need to worry about it. I think we can state it unequivocally at this point.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 14, 2016 17:38:02 GMT -5
Which is why I said showers and bathrooms should have been dealt with separately (see the highlight section of my quote above). This is a mute point now because the federal government has told our schools that they have to let transgender students use the locker rooms and the showers of the sex they identify with, even if it makes the young men or women using these rooms uncomfortable. In order to keep a few from feeling uncomfortable, they are setting the stage to make more students uncomfortable. I know some students don't care, but I think more do. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Even if they had dealt with the showers and locker rooms separately the federal government has said, "No. You can't." Dagny, we're dealing with this issue right now at my sons' school. It's been a hot topic in the community because there is a transgendered student who was denied the ability to use the restroom of the gender that the student associates with and - for all outward appearances - lives as. Very tough situation for all sides because it is such a charged issue. There have been protests at the school, protests at the school board, etc.
IMHO, instead of getting tangled in a debate about transgendered students we should use this is a chance to examine the rights of all students to privacy in the restroom.
Restrooms, showers and changing rooms should be private places. Let's work instead to give EVERYBODY privacy in the bathroom, showers and changing rooms instead of trying to argue over who is similar enough to be forced together naked. I don't think anybody is truly, deeply all that comfy being naked in a communal shower or going to the bathroom literally next to a stranger with just an insubstantial partial barrier or no barrier at all. Let's stop misplacing that discomfort on people who are already struggling with enough, and let's address the root issue - too many public bathrooms are not private enough for anybody. Make the restrooms, showers and changing areas into individually private spaces and this is a total nonissue - everybody wins.
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on May 14, 2016 17:48:12 GMT -5
This is a mute point now because the federal government has told our schools that they have to let transgender students use the locker rooms and the showers of the sex they identify with, even if it makes the young men or women using these rooms uncomfortable. In order to keep a few from feeling uncomfortable, they are setting the stage to make more students uncomfortable. I know some students don't care, but I think more do. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Even if they had dealt with the showers and locker rooms separately the federal government has said, "No. You can't." Dagny, we're dealing with this issue right now at my sons' school. It's been a hot topic in the community because there is a transgendered student who was denied the ability to use the restroom of the gender that the student associates with and - for all outward appearances - lives as. Very tough situation for all sides because it is such a charged issue. There have been protests at the school, protests at the school board, etc.
IMHO, instead of getting tangled in a debate about transgendered students we should use this is a chance to examine the rights of all students to privacy in the restroom.
Restrooms, showers and changing rooms should be private places. Let's work instead to give EVERYBODY privacy in the bathroom, showers and changing rooms instead of trying to argue over who is similar enough to be forced together naked. I don't think anybody is truly, deeply all that comfy being naked in a communal shower or going to the bathroom literally next to a stranger with just an insubstantial partial barrier or no barrier at all. Let's stop misplacing that discomfort on people who are already struggling with enough, and let's address the root issue - too many public bathrooms are not private enough for anybody. Make the restrooms, showers and changing areas into individually private spaces and this is a total nonissue - everybody wins.
I agree. That would solve the problem. Now how do we convince the powers that be to pay for the retrofitting? It would be the best solution. Take the urinals out. Making the stalls floor to ceiling would work for the bathrooms. Private cubicles would work in the showers and locker rooms. Let's start a campaign!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2016 17:55:12 GMT -5
The thing is, if you read, there are already a lot of schools one step away from this. As i noted earlier, as soon as showers became volluntary, almost no one kept taking them. Schools are contemplating taking them out completely.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 14, 2016 17:55:47 GMT -5
Its non-binding, FWIW. No need to panic. Apparently Texas's LT governor or some such politician, who's screaming about the directive, was a former local right wing radio host.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 14, 2016 18:38:57 GMT -5
I say all my elementary schooling was in Catholic schools. But I did attend public junior high school for grades seven and eight. The junior high school had an indoor, 50 yard length pool. Swimming was part of the PE curriculum. I was a very good swimmer and diver so I enjoyed that activity and got my junior Red Cross lifeguard certificate there.
But some of the male students didn't like swimming as they were were poor swimmers or could not swim at all. Apparently over the years, the students who hated swimming would get out of swimming each day by telling the gym teachers they forgot to bring their bathing suit to school for gym/swiming class. So what did the school do? They said no boys would wear swimming suits. Boys could not wear just their underpants. They boys simply went bare ass. Modesty was tossed out the door.
That was awkward for some of the students because some boys were starting to go through puberty and some weren't. Some of the boys in my class were a year older than the rest of us because they were held back a grade earlier in their school life. By the end of eight grade and when I left, there were still some boys who had not started the physical changes of puberty. It was very awkward and embarassing for some of the more physically immature boys.
I have no idea/don't remember if the girls had to swim bare assed too.
I have always wondered if there were unseen eyes ogling us boys during swimming class. Kind of creepy as I think back about it.
The school still exists and probably the pool too. I wonder if the boys were finally able to wear swim suits and for those who did not bring a suit to school, did they now starting failing them in gym class as opposed to the boys having to swim naked?
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 14, 2016 18:56:40 GMT -5
I know. I've read your concerns and I was just stating I totally understand your concerns concerning the locker room and showers, even as a transgender person. And I for one before surgery would have never been comfortable to change in a locker room or shower without surgery. Actually I'm not comfortable even after surgery. I've never been comfortable changing naked in front of anyone before transition and after. I don't like changing in front of others, either. I will admit; I can't wrap my head around being transgender. I really try, but I'm just not there yet. I really appreciate your posts because they help me see things from the transgender perspective. Hopefully, I will get there one day. Thanks again for your perspective. I know it's difficult for a lot of people to wrap their heads around it. It was for my parents and it took them awhile. It was for my girlfriend as well. It takes some people longer than others, but the fact that you're trying is better than not at all. You may never get there but I understand your concerns with some issues, and you're respectful in what you're saying even if you don't fully understand the whole transgender perspective and what it's like in the life of a transgender person. Sometimes I struggle in even being completely respectful because it's hard for me to sometimes to see certain items because of the cards I've been dealt with. I try as well but sometimes I falter in trying to get my points across without sounding too rude. Sometimes I think certain transgender issues are misunderstood. And as I said I fully understand your concerns with certain issues and the fact you can express this without putting down transgenders is appreciated.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on May 14, 2016 18:58:11 GMT -5
This is a mute point now because the federal government has told our schools that they have to let transgender students use the locker rooms and the showers of the sex they identify with, even if it makes the young men or women using these rooms uncomfortable. In order to keep a few from feeling uncomfortable, they are setting the stage to make more students uncomfortable. I know some students don't care, but I think more do. I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Even if they had dealt with the showers and locker rooms separately the federal government has said, "No. You can't." Dagny, we're dealing with this issue right now at my sons' school. It's been a hot topic in the community because there is a transgendered student who was denied the ability to use the restroom of the gender that the student associates with and - for all outward appearances - lives as. Very tough situation for all sides because it is such a charged issue. There have been protests at the school, protests at the school board, etc.
IMHO, instead of getting tangled in a debate about transgendered students we should use this is a chance to examine the rights of all students to privacy in the restroom.
Restrooms, showers and changing rooms should be private places. Let's work instead to give EVERYBODY privacy in the bathroom, showers and changing rooms instead of trying to argue over who is similar enough to be forced together naked. I don't think anybody is truly, deeply all that comfy being naked in a communal shower or going to the bathroom literally next to a stranger with just an insubstantial partial barrier or no barrier at all. Let's stop misplacing that discomfort on people who are already struggling with enough, and let's address the root issue - too many public bathrooms are not private enough for anybody. Make the restrooms, showers and changing areas into individually private spaces and this is a total nonissue - everybody wins.
times a billion! This would help bullying for not only trans kids as well. This would help those kids that had been bullied for being "too small." or being too big. Or just people that have issues with changing in front of people. This is certainly not just a transgender issues because many people have issues with changing in front of others. I guess if someone is comfortable doing so...so be IT. But so many people are uncomfortable changing naked in front of people and if they don't want to it shouldn't be forced. Although, it really isn't in schools anymore.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2016 19:40:45 GMT -5
What is there to be pissed about? Sometimes I wonder if people know what the word transgender means. I guess we are afraid football players are now going to dress up like cheerleaders to use the girls locker room or something I think the problem lies a lot in the fear that someone's little princess will see a penis before they (the parents) are ready to explain the birds and the bees.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2016 19:48:25 GMT -5
How about every bathroom just have stalls? Or make all bathrooms unisex? I've been an advocate of that for quite a while myself.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on May 14, 2016 19:59:35 GMT -5
The people I have talked to are more upset about the locker rooms and showers. Should transgender teens who have not had surgery to change their sex parts be taking showers with people of the opposite biological sex at public schools? Because President Obama has indicated that they should.[/quo [br I don't know about your city but here the public showers are ling gone. They hadn't been used in decades when I was in school. By my senior year they had walled Over them.[ br] There was no hysteria about transgnderism then. What was a concern was sexual harassment or assault There was nothing stopping coaches of either sex from entering the shower quarters, especially after hours. Female gym teachers can be predators too. [ br] br] It was felt teens didn't need to be put in that position and it was a huge liability risk for the school system. br Also public showers are a tremendous waste of water and space. Much cheaper overhead if you make kids shower at home.
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on May 14, 2016 20:56:08 GMT -5
It seems like somebody needs to let President Obama and the Justice Department know that most schools no longer use their showers. Lol.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on May 15, 2016 7:05:40 GMT -5
I was on the swim team in HS and that's the only time I used the school shower... And that was with the bathing suit on. Finding a tucked away corner in the locker room to put on and remove my swim suit in private was a much more pressing matter to me.
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WholeLottaNothin
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Post by WholeLottaNothin on May 15, 2016 12:15:16 GMT -5
Yeah. I would like to speak up on the entire public showering humiliations of high school. My vote is separate shower stalls instead of the community shower. But since a lot of public middle schools and high schools have community showers, should these students be showering together? Because President Obama and the Justice Department have said that they should. I did not see them saying that schools with community showers are exempt or that the federal government was going to rain down money on public schools to build new showering facilities, so I guess he thinks it is ok. Of course, it does not affect his daughters since they are in private schools, not public schools. I have not finished reading this thread so I apologize if this has been addressed, but I graduated high school in 2000 and we never had to shower in school.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 15, 2016 13:39:25 GMT -5
Seattle students take initiative for opening school's all-gender bathroom
link
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on May 15, 2016 13:53:49 GMT -5
I don't have kids, but I did put this issue to my brothers, who have school-aged kids. They laughed. Their reaction was pretty much, "Sheesh, like if this is the worst thing we ever had to deal with as parents, it would be fabulous. People need to get over themselves. Kids see, hear and deal with tougher stuff than who uses which bathroom nowadays. If Johnny is going to cause an issue in the girls' bathroom (or Jane in the boys' bathroom) they will do it with or without federal guidelines."
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on May 15, 2016 16:21:46 GMT -5
But since a lot of public middle schools and high schools have community showers, should these students be showering together? Because President Obama and the Justice Department have said that they should. I did not see them saying that schools with community showers are exempt or that the federal government was going to rain down money on public schools to build new showering facilities, so I guess he thinks it is ok. Of course, it does not affect his daughters since they are in private schools, not public schools. I have not finished reading this thread so I apologize if this has been addressed, but I graduated high school in 2000 and we never had to shower in school. We have determined that few, if any students actually shower in school these days. We did when I graduated back in ancient history times, but apparently our government officials do not know this. The public school personnel need to inform them. Lol.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 15, 2016 16:37:29 GMT -5
Doesn't carry the force of law, so I don't know what it accomplishes. I guess it's just Obama telling us what he'd like to see.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 15, 2016 16:47:08 GMT -5
At the end of the day, you have to take someone's gender identity at thei word. It's not something you can just look at and tell if the person really identifies as a different gender or not, especially a stranger in a public restroom.
Either way, it looks like the way things are going, using one or the other bathroom will be an entirely optional choice because who can really question you?
After that, it's just a short skip and a hop to entirely desegregated bathrooms.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 15, 2016 16:53:04 GMT -5
I graduated high school in 2003, I never had to shower at school. If you had gym, you were just stinky for the rest of the day.
I never played school sports, so I can't speak to that.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on May 15, 2016 16:53:28 GMT -5
Doesn't carry the force of law, so I don't know what it accomplishes. I guess it's just Obama telling us what he'd like to see. It puts people on notice as to what Obama and Holder want to accomplish. It also signals federal funds might be at risk in the future for those who do not comply.
MHO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2016 17:59:39 GMT -5
I just had an idea... Let's change the bathrooms to "wearing skirts/dresses/kilts" and "wearing pants"... and people use the one that corresponds to their attire! (and... we could still use the same symbols we use now)
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on May 15, 2016 18:36:34 GMT -5
Locker rooms and group showers are terrible for anyone, and I would be totally shocked if there was a single middle schooler or even high schooler that was super excited about the idea that they are given little choice but to be naked in front of a random group of their classmates of the same gender. The real solution here is to offer more privacy in all locker-room scenarios - stalls, curtains, anything. When I was in high school we all stood in line to change in the bathroom after PE. No one showered. Even as an adult who has totally given up the idea that my body matters to anyone, locker rooms offend me. I'm sure some people love to strut around naked in front of whomever - but I would prefer a little privacy. Luckily, I have the option of managing my time. Others may not. Let's give everyone more options. Especially kids.
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