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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2016 22:21:59 GMT -5
I'd actually love to talk to the people Greg pulled a gun on in the parking lot, gas station and ATF situations. I'm betting they also tell those stories, but in a slightly different way. I don't know. I think it's very possible he felt threatened and felt the gun helped.
But then again, having lived in Phoenix (and I had finance clients including methadone clinics in gangland plus I was a CASA for foster kids, who never seemed to live in the gun free parts of town) for 15 years and never carrying a gun anywhere, I could tell plenty of stories where I felt threatened but it all turned out OK, too. Once I was even chased by a gang member - I have never run so fast in heels and a pencil skirt. So because I have stories where I escaped harm without having to flash a gun or shoot anybody, does that mean nobody should carry a gun? I don't think so. Like Pink, I think there's an appropriate time and place. Inside a workplace probably isn't it, though...
It's possible. He described them as safe places though. And three times? The other aspect of having guns resulting in more deaths/violence that I mentioned isn't just sending one in to riskier areas, but being more likely to escalate a situation which would not have otherwise resulted in violence.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 24, 2016 22:32:30 GMT -5
The other aspect of having guns resulting in more deaths/violence that I mentioned isn't just sending one in to riskier areas, but being more likely to escalate a situation which would not have otherwise resulted in violence. And armed idiots that think they can take down a bad guy are very scary... DH and I just shudder at some of the talk we hear at the range. Especially given what awful shots most people are - even in the controlled, low stress setting like the shooting range. Heck, these idiots even shoot themselves and each other AT THE RANGE sometimes; can't imagine how 99% of them would fare in a situation where their adrenaline and testosterone was running high. I do not want to be a bystander at the mall, gas station, road or workplace when one of these yahoos pulls out their gun to solve a problem.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 25, 2016 2:44:34 GMT -5
Yup, all valid points. I'd still rather be judged by twelve than carried by six. I refuse to be a victim ever again. I don't look for trouble but if it finds me, well, I hope to be prepared. Most of us carry car and health and homeowners or renters insurance just in case. This is no different.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 25, 2016 7:02:33 GMT -5
Most of us carry car and health and homeowners or renters insurance just in case. This is no different. It's a little different but the differences are important ones. Your car, health, homeowners and renter's insurance don't kill innocent bystanders. Your insurance can't be grabbed and used to beat or shoot you. You can't mishandle your insurance and kill yourself. Just sayin'.
We own guns and I'm not militantly anti-gun. But using good judgment about when/where to carry and use is important.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 25, 2016 7:11:00 GMT -5
Why do you guys propose police carry guns in a "workplace setting" if it's such a bad idea?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 25, 2016 7:36:39 GMT -5
Why do you guys propose police carry guns in a "workplace setting" if it's such a bad idea? Not sure who "you guys" is. If you'll point me to where I said that, then I can tell you why I'm proposing it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 8:12:36 GMT -5
As far as the OP, I don't have to work today and the police still haven't found him. The manager has been released from the hospital. She's been quoted as saying that he came into her office and started screaming racial slurs at her, then started punching her. When she fell to the floor, he started beating her with a chair. Ugh.
The sad part is that while everybody was shocked that he beat her, nobody was surprised that someone had lost their cool with her. Even though this guy obviously has serious issues, not one person that talked about it yesterday at work believes that she was in her office just minding her business and he attacked her out of the blue. They know her well enough to think that more than likely she said something that provoked him, because she says things to get under people's skin. But whether she said something off the wall or not, he had no business putting his hands on her and I don't want him to get away with it.
I really, really hope they find him and lock him up before I go back to work. I really do fear that he'll be one of those people that will pop up on a rampage. The last time he got into it with a supervisor, he called her all kinds of black bitches and screamed at her "you don't talk to white people that way" amongst other things. All of her employees witnessed that incident. The manager he beat up is black and she says he screamed racial slurs at her before he started hitting her, but they were alone in her office so nobody else heard that. Still, I do believe he has some sort of issue with black people and there are a lot of black people working there and he's obviously not well.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 25, 2016 8:29:51 GMT -5
Instead of carrying a gun to work, as an employee the most productive thing one could do in this situation is to actively work to get the Union and the "do-nothing" administration kicked out.
It's a reasonable bet that Union rules making it next to impossible to terminate problem employees are a primary contributor to this situation. Even with the next-to-impossible Union rules, good management doesn't allow employees who have screamed racial epithets and threatened people to keep working; good management sucks it up and goes through the interminable steps to fire employees like this before the problem escalates to this level.
So instead of thinking of carrying a gun to work, as an employee I'd be putting my energy into figuring out why this guy was still working... and do whatever I could to change that broken system. There will always be crazy people. You might have to deal with them on the street or even in your family, but it's not reasonable to have to worry about them attacking you at work.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 25, 2016 8:49:49 GMT -5
Honestly. I'm in high-crime areas all the time and I rarely have a gun with me. I didn't have to take a class or have someone tell me what milee said about the 21 foot rule or whatever it was. My common sense says that if someone is already close to me with intentions to harm me, it's probably too late to try to pull my gun, cock it, and aim well enough to hit them and only them. To me that's a no-brainer. The office where the attack started is tiny, maybe 10x10. I think she would have been better off being strong as an ox than having a gun. Or fast enough to keep the desk between them and get out the door.
We have a friend who is an expert shot and keeps a loaded pistol at his bedside all the time. I have to stress that he's a really good shot. His neighborhood had a series of break ins and they targeted his house. He woke up hearing them moving around in his house, drew his pistol and shot the door jamb, even though he was aiming at one of the robbers. As good as he was with his weapon, it's really, really hard to draw quickly and accurately in a real-life situation when you're standing in close proximity to your target.
(By the way, he was fine - the shot scared the thieves away - but likely they thought no one was at home and would have run off even if no one shot at them. All the previous area robberies were to places where no one was at home.)
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 25, 2016 8:57:18 GMT -5
I don't know. I think it's very possible he felt threatened and felt the gun helped.
But then again, having lived in Phoenix (and I had finance clients including methadone clinics in gangland plus I was a CASA for foster kids, who never seemed to live in the gun free parts of town) for 15 years and never carrying a gun anywhere, I could tell plenty of stories where I felt threatened but it all turned out OK, too. Once I was even chased by a gang member - I have never run so fast in heels and a pencil skirt. So because I have stories where I escaped harm without having to flash a gun or shoot anybody, does that mean nobody should carry a gun? I don't think so. Like Pink, I think there's an appropriate time and place. Inside a workplace probably isn't it, though...
It's possible. He described them as safe places though. And three times? The other aspect of having guns resulting in more deaths/violence that I mentioned isn't just sending one in to riskier areas, but being more likely to escalate a situation which would not have otherwise resulted in violence. I'm always curious about these kinds of stories, too. I had another friend who described being stopped at a police check on the road. He thought these were not really police but were robbers dressed up as police, and he thought they would pull their guns on him and demand money. So he pulled his weapon out of the glove compartment and laid it on the seat next to him, so the man dressed up as a cop would see the gun and not rob him. He told everyone about how he thwarted the robbers because they were too scared to mess with a man with a gun, and how they were 'probably' robbing a lot of other people that night.
Yeah - or they might actually have been real cops doing a sobriety check or looking for a wanted criminal? Occam's razor?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 25, 2016 9:01:09 GMT -5
Pink I hope they catch him soon. I feel bad for him having these mental health issues but it's very scary for all his co-workers. I worked with a highly strung woman (one of those who is always raging and then rushing into the bathroom to sob) and she suddenly announced she was going to buy a gun. Not take any lessons or go to a shooting range or anything, just purchase one. Since I had the office closest to the back door of the facility, I figured I'd be the first person she shot if she ever brought the gun to work - fortunately, she left soon after.
Mental health problems and their lack of treatment - a national disgrace, really, how we fail to address it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 9:06:26 GMT -5
Instead of carrying a gun to work, as an employee the most productive thing one could do in this situation is to actively work to get the Union and the "do-nothing" administration kicked out.
It's a reasonable bet that Union rules making it next to impossible to terminate problem employees are a primary contributor to this situation. Even with the next-to-impossible Union rules, good management doesn't allow employees who have screamed racial epithets and threatened people to keep working; good management sucks it up and goes through the interminable steps to fire employees like this before the problem escalates to this level.
So instead of thinking of carrying a gun to work, as an employee I'd be putting my energy into figuring out why this guy was still working... and do whatever I could to change that broken system. There will always be crazy people. You might have to deal with them on the street or even in your family, but it's not reasonable to have to worry about them attacking you at work.
I can only speak for where I work. People think it's next to impossible to fire employees there, but it's actually not. The unions are kind of like attorneys. They represent their clients even when they know they're guilty. But if the police and prosecutors don't follow proper procedure, the guilty can get off on a technicality. The problem is that managers won't do their jobs. There is paperwork and a time frame for firing an employee. Don't complete the paperwork properly and in a timely fashion, well you just messed up an opportunity to fire that person. Even here on another thread, a poster was asking about firing an employee. Most of the responses involved documenting what this employee is doing/not doing, and there is no union involved as far as I know. But that poster has certain things she needs to do to be able to fire that employee without repercussions. Another poster was terminated from his job recently and a lot of other posters are advising him to get an attorney. No union there. So I really don't see what unions have to do with it. When you fire someone for cause, most companies have procedures that must be followed. Don't follow the procedures, and you can have problems trying to fire that person. Another thing is that it seems that veterans have an ally in the VA. If the employer requires they get medical clearance saying they're physically and mentally able to return to work and pose no threat to themselves or others, and the VA confirms in writing that that person is physically and mentally sound, then what? Unless they've actually committed a fireable offense, they get to come back until they do. You can't fire somebody just because they have mentall issues if they're doing their job and not harming anyone. I assume you're referring to greg about someone that thinks carrying a gun to work is the solution. I've been with you that that's a terrible idea and not one that I'd consider.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 25, 2016 9:21:46 GMT -5
Pink Cashmere-I saw on local news the police are looking for the guy and his car. The news posted his license plate number.
So did the guy flee the facility in his vehicle after the attack? It sounds like it.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 25, 2016 10:00:31 GMT -5
Honestly. I'm in high-crime areas all the time and I rarely have a gun with me. I didn't have to take a class or have someone tell me what milee said about the 21 foot rule or whatever it was. My common sense says that if someone is already close to me with intentions to harm me, it's probably too late to try to pull my gun, cock it, and aim well enough to hit them and only them. To me that's a no-brainer. The office where the attack started is tiny, maybe 10x10. I think she would have been better off being strong as an ox than having a gun. Or fast enough to keep the desk between them and get out the door.
We have a friend who is an expert shot and keeps a loaded pistol at his bedside all the time. I have to stress that he's a really good shot. His neighborhood had a series of break ins and they targeted his house. He woke up hearing them moving around in his house, drew his pistol and shot the door jamb, even though he was aiming at one of the robbers. As good as he was with his weapon, it's really, really hard to draw quickly and accurately in a real-life situation when you're standing in close proximity to your target.
(By the way, he was fine - the shot scared the thieves away - but likely they thought no one was at home and would have run off even if no one shot at them. All the previous area robberies were to places where no one was at home.)
So no one got hurt, and the robbers got nothing. I don't see how this guy didn't win.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 25, 2016 10:08:37 GMT -5
Pink...I'd advise you that while this guy is still out there that you and the other employees make sure never to be alone in an office. You stated the woman who was attacked was alone. Use the buddy system for now.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 25, 2016 11:07:12 GMT -5
Or fast enough to keep the desk between them and get out the door.
We have a friend who is an expert shot and keeps a loaded pistol at his bedside all the time. I have to stress that he's a really good shot. His neighborhood had a series of break ins and they targeted his house. He woke up hearing them moving around in his house, drew his pistol and shot the door jamb, even though he was aiming at one of the robbers. As good as he was with his weapon, it's really, really hard to draw quickly and accurately in a real-life situation when you're standing in close proximity to your target.
(By the way, he was fine - the shot scared the thieves away - but likely they thought no one was at home and would have run off even if no one shot at them. All the previous area robberies were to places where no one was at home.)
So no one got hurt, and the robbers got nothing. I don't see how this guy didn't win. I didn't say he didn't win. He ran the robbers off.
My point was that he was a really good shot who spends a lot of time at the range and still missed his target by about 2 feet. He was really PO'd about that because he wanted to hit him. He was upset that he was so far from his target. If this guy was off by that much, it tells you that the popular idea that gun owners can whip out their weapons and shot someone through the brain pan, very quickly and at close range, is probably not true.
And if you only want to scare burglars away, you can achieve the same effect with a noisy dog who barks when a stranger tries to open a door or window. Research shows robbers won't try to enter homes with barking dogs. Much more effective than a gun - the #1 thing stolen from people's homes around here are guns, when the home owner isn't there to use them. Nice and portable and always a good market for them.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 25, 2016 11:18:38 GMT -5
Instead of carrying a gun to work, as an employee the most productive thing one could do in this situation is to actively work to get the Union and the "do-nothing" administration kicked out.
It's a reasonable bet that Union rules making it next to impossible to terminate problem employees are a primary contributor to this situation. Even with the next-to-impossible Union rules, good management doesn't allow employees who have screamed racial epithets and threatened people to keep working; good management sucks it up and goes through the interminable steps to fire employees like this before the problem escalates to this level.
So instead of thinking of carrying a gun to work, as an employee I'd be putting my energy into figuring out why this guy was still working... and do whatever I could to change that broken system. There will always be crazy people. You might have to deal with them on the street or even in your family, but it's not reasonable to have to worry about them attacking you at work.
I can only speak for where I work. People think it's next to impossible to fire employees there, but it's actually not. The unions are kind of like attorneys. They represent their clients even when they know they're guilty. But if the police and prosecutors don't follow proper procedure, the guilty can get off on a technicality. The problem is that managers won't do their jobs. There is paperwork and a time frame for firing an employee. Don't complete the paperwork properly and in a timely fashion, well you just messed up an opportunity to fire that person. Even here on another thread, a poster was asking about firing an employee. Most of the responses involved documenting what this employee is doing/not doing, and there is no union involved as far as I know. But that poster has certain things she needs to do to be able to fire that employee without repercussions. Another poster was terminated from his job recently and a lot of other posters are advising him to get an attorney. No union there. So I really don't see what unions have to do with it. When you fire someone for cause, most companies have procedures that must be followed. Don't follow the procedures, and you can have problems trying to fire that person. OK, makes sense. Then as an employee, I'd be really upset with the supervisors and management. From your description of his earlier outbursts, they should have been documenting and working to get him out of there.
My speculation was based on our local teacher's union and how impossible it is to fire teachers. One of them was actually even convicted of assaulting a special needs student and the district was unable to fire her or transfer her to a lower paid non-student contact position, so was having to pay her her approx $80k a year salary to do filing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 11:31:29 GMT -5
Again, teachers are the same thing, at least around here, and we have unions. You can get rid of them. The supervisor just has to put in the effort of documentation and attempts to remediate before termination. I don't understand the examples like the one you gave unless their are extenuating circumstances. We had a teacher 'jokingly' threaten a student with a stapler and he was gone. One at a district I worked in hit a student and was gone. One was put through the paces of rehabilitation, mostly for sucky teaching, but a move in placement and intervention improved the situation and she was not fired.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jan 25, 2016 11:37:48 GMT -5
Back to the OP,
I would NOT be going into work until this guy is found and detained.... Fuck THAT NOISE!
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 25, 2016 12:35:21 GMT -5
So no one got hurt, and the robbers got nothing. I don't see how this guy didn't win. I didn't say he didn't win. He ran the robbers off.
My point was that he was a really good shot who spends a lot of time at the range and still missed his target by about 2 feet. He was really PO'd about that because he wanted to hit him. He was upset that he was so far from his target. If this guy was off by that much, it tells you that the popular idea that gun owners can whip out their weapons and shot someone through the brain pan, very quickly and at close range, is probably not true.
And if you only want to scare burglars away, you can achieve the same effect with a noisy dog who barks when a stranger tries to open a door or window. Research shows robbers won't try to enter homes with barking dogs. Much more effective than a gun - the #1 thing stolen from people's homes around here are guns, when the home owner isn't there to use them. Nice and portable and always a good market for them.
Police experience this problem as well, yet no one advocates them not having firearms available. It is difficult to hit a target under duress with a handgun. You get no argument from me on that. In the odd event my life or that of my family is threatened, I want the very best chance I can possibly have to defend myself. It isn't practical to carry a long gun around with you everywhere, so a handgun is the best alternative I've found.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 13:52:40 GMT -5
Back to the OP, I would NOT be going into work until this guy is found and detained.... Fuck THAT NOISE! I just found out he was arrested a couple hours ago. Whew!
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jan 25, 2016 13:57:47 GMT -5
Good.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 25, 2016 13:59:45 GMT -5
Back to the OP, I would NOT be going into work until this guy is found and detained.... Fuck THAT NOISE! I just found out he was arrested a couple hours ago. Whew! Glad to hear it! What a relief that must be!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 25, 2016 14:19:36 GMT -5
As long as they don't let him out. Which they will.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 25, 2016 14:32:41 GMT -5
I didn't say he didn't win. He ran the robbers off.
My point was that he was a really good shot who spends a lot of time at the range and still missed his target by about 2 feet. He was really PO'd about that because he wanted to hit him. He was upset that he was so far from his target. If this guy was off by that much, it tells you that the popular idea that gun owners can whip out their weapons and shot someone through the brain pan, very quickly and at close range, is probably not true.
And if you only want to scare burglars away, you can achieve the same effect with a noisy dog who barks when a stranger tries to open a door or window. Research shows robbers won't try to enter homes with barking dogs. Much more effective than a gun - the #1 thing stolen from people's homes around here are guns, when the home owner isn't there to use them. Nice and portable and always a good market for them.
Police experience this problem as well, yet no one advocates them not having firearms available. It is difficult to hit a target under duress with a handgun. You get no argument from me on that. In the odd event my life or that of my family is threatened, I want the very best chance I can possibly have to defend myself. It isn't practical to carry a long gun around with you everywhere, so a handgun is the best alternative I've found. I'm not saying you shouldn't carry a gun, if that makes you feel safer, as long as you are a responsible gun owner and keep good control of it at all times.
I'm saying guns aren't the answer to all violence in the workplace situations, and people without much training probably shouldn't carry guns at all, because they are likely to either accidentally shoot someone or have their gun taken away from them and used against them.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jan 25, 2016 14:33:17 GMT -5
As long as they don't let him out. Which they will. Yeah but at least he will be fired and no longer working with Pink.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 25, 2016 14:59:25 GMT -5
But he can return to whee he's been fired. This is not over. The man needs help and not to be walking the streets.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 25, 2016 15:02:03 GMT -5
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jan 25, 2016 15:05:34 GMT -5
No way. Somebody might take it away from you and hit you with it instead. You should never fight back...ever. Just passively accept whatever attack comes your way because fighting back may get you hurt.
Wait...
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Jan 25, 2016 15:11:27 GMT -5
No way. Somebody might take it away from you and hit you with it instead. You should never fight back...ever. Just passively accept whatever attack comes your way because fighting back may get you hurt.
Wait... I'll stick with my plan.
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