what's wrong with lettng the illegals stay?

[mroped]

Myself, I could work with people speaking any language. I can find a way to communicate and get done what's needed. But how many people do you know that would put frustration on the side and try to communicate with a fellow worker in a peaceful way?
I don't see some redneck up on the scaffolding 40-50 in the air asking for a wrench from Ivan or Gyorgy or Carlos that don't speak a lick of English and waiting patiently for them to understand what he's saying and do it for him.
And while not the official language of this country it is still the language that was used to write the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Also, the language that the great majority of population uses to communicate.
Do you as an outsider wanna come here and have a life and make something of yourself or you just wanna come here for shits and giggles?
For the latter, please stay wherever you are!

Im not saying that you should be absolutely fluent and have absolute command of the English language but out of your sens of decency please do learn some English as to make it easier on yourself.
Or not and be stuck in a low paying job and live the rest of your life in your tightly knit national community!

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 17:18:15 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Aug 19, 2015 17:11:50 GMT -5 mroped said:

As far as legal processing goes, I'd go with simple rules:
- applicants and their dependents should not be of more than 35 years of age at the time of interview
- at least basic english
- sound of body and mind
-no criminal record 
-minimum high school diploma

A balanced number of men and women should be processed.
Young families with children have priority as long as they pass the above requirements

That would not remove from the equation(or should not) the occasional migration of a couple or individual over 35 that is well educated and passes all other requirements.
War/conflict zone applicants don't have to fulfill the requirements for age or language skills

All personnel at embassies/consulates all over the world should be American citizens not locals. Locals are typically the ones asking for "favors" to those in charge while they are getting huge kick backs sometimes from people that can barely support themselves but fully know that they won't get thru the door without the locals say so

why is someone under 35 years old more deserving then someone older then 35?  No when need to not have arbitrary rules.  Let people come in if they are not criminals and want to come here. I admit there might come a time to limit it, but don't concede that, maybe there is not a number too big. 

Boo on the  basic english requirement.  And boo on the high school diploma requirement.  You don't need to speak English or have a high school diploma to want a better life.

BOO on your last sentence.

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 17:29:08 GMT -5 mroped said:

Myself, I could work with people speaking any language. I can find a way to communicate and get done what's needed. But how many people do you know that would put frustration on the side and try to communicate with a fellow worker in a peaceful way?
I don't see some redneck up on the scaffolding 40-50 in the air asking for a wrench from Ivan or Gyorgy or Carlos that don't speak a lick of English and waiting patiently for them to understand what he's saying and do it for him.
And while not the official language of this country it is still the language that was used to write the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Also, the language that the great majority of population uses to communicate.
Do you as an outsider wanna come here and have a life and make something of yourself or you just wanna come here for shits and giggles?
For the latter, please stay wherever you are!

Im not saying that you should be absolutely fluent and have absolute command of the English language but out of your sens of decency please do learn some English as to make it easier on yourself.
Or not and be stuck in a low paying job and live the rest of your life in your tightly knit national community!

I work with Mexicans.  I am not really redneck but am kind of hillbilly.  Most of the people I work with get along with the other people they work with.  Someone will say, "but what about your racist co-workers".  They get along with people they work with also.  Work is work and not fun.  It is work and you do what you need to do.  Don't blame this on construction workers.  We work with all kinds of people and get along for the most part.

[mroped]

"Boo on the basic english requirement. And boo on the high school diploma requirement. You don't need to speak English or have a high school diploma to want a better life."

 That's funny! Or at least I think it is.

And to be on point abou the high school diploma:
as it turns out, we as a nation produce a big enough number of uneducated people. Some of them even have a college degree. Do we want more of that?
Yes, I know you don't need a high school diploma to want a better life but trust me that an individual that doesn't have a high school diploma from a foreign country will most likely wanna stay where he is at. 
So my point is that while we wanna help the ones that wanna help themselves, we also should understand that there are limitations on how many can we get in?

The requirement for "under 35" would be in place as to encourage procreation/mating or whatever you wanna call it.
If not, we might just get all of the 60 and over from Eastern Europe here and have to support them.
If you wanna come here and when you come of retirement age you want your entitlements then I think you should have worked for. Nothing is free! Not even to cross River Styx.

[zibazinski]

Aug 19, 2015 17:10:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

One way to combat illegal immigration would be to go after the employers that hire them.
Introduce outrageous fines not just a few hundred bucks and if necessary forfeiture of assets of said employer and see if they still wanna hire illegals.

Oh the fine is more than a few hundred, but it's still not near enough to kick them in the balls.   Tyson gets fined all the time for actively recruting illegals and DH's plant has been busted for forging paperwork so when inspectors show up it all looks legit.    They get a six figure slap on the wrist and a "don't do this again please" wink wink.

They make a big production out of cleaning house and then a few days later bring in a brand new batch of illegals.  Then they tell all the peons since they got fined no raises this year.  Boom, their bottom line is just fine again.

DH said there is a line out the door every day of people trying to apply to the plant he worked at.  They don't get hired b/c Tyson is trucking in illegals by the thousands.   They send people down to recruit in Mexico and then pay people to bring them up here.

You won't get it to stop b/c  the lobbyists are too powerful.  Politicians talk a good game but they know who feeds them.  

That's why you throw their asses in jail. First time 90 days. Second time 180 days. A few stints in jail will end the hiring of illegals. Fines don't mean diddly

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 17:44:38 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Aug 19, 2015 17:10:40 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

One way to combat illegal immigration would be to go after the employers that hire them.
Introduce outrageous fines not just a few hundred bucks and if necessary forfeiture of assets of said employer and see if they still wanna hire illegals.

Oh the fine is more than a few hundred, but it's still not near enough to kick them in the balls.   Tyson gets fined all the time for actively recruting illegals and DH's plant has been busted for forging paperwork so when inspectors show up it all looks legit.    They get a six figure slap on the wrist and a "don't do this again please" wink wink.

They make a big production out of cleaning house and then a few days later bring in a brand new batch of illegals.  Then they tell all the peons since they got fined no raises this year.  Boom, their bottom line is just fine again.

DH said there is a line out the door every day of people trying to apply to the plant he worked at.  They don't get hired b/c Tyson is trucking in illegals by the thousands.   They send people down to recruit in Mexico and then pay people to bring them up here.

You won't get it to stop b/c  the lobbyists are too powerful.  Politicians talk a good game but they know who feeds them.  

That's why you throw their asses in jail. First time 90 days. Second time 180 days. A few stints in jail will end the hiring of illegals. Fines don't mean diddly

No, first offense is three to five, and not at a country club facility. 
Maybe Trump could have the Mexicans build another prison there for our corporate elite

[zibazinski]

Works for me. That includes all upper management, board members, human resources, anyone that "looks the other way." No welfare of any type, no education, medical care to stabilize then instant deportation. Self deporting of illegals accomplished. Some will hide and stay but most flaunt their illegality.

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 17:53:08 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Works for me. That includes all upper management, board members, human resources, anyone that "looks the other way." No welfare of any type, no education, medical care to stabilize then instant deportation. Self deporting of illegals accomplished. Some will hide and stay but most flaunt their illegality.

This would be a good start.
And I emphasize, START.

[Deleted]

To me, it's a matter of self-preservation. We don't leave our homes unlocked and welcome any stranger that wanders in to come in and live there. Most of us would want to know at least a little something about the strangers and their intentions before we give them permission to stay and use our resources. If we allow an unlimited number of unknown strangers in, eventually there would be chaos, the resources depleted and the home would be destroyed..... just from the number of people, nevermind that not all of them would be good people anyway.

America is our home. As much as we would like for everyone in the world to enjoy the rights and freedoms that we have here, there's only so much we can do. We already don't know what to do with half of the people that have a right to be here, let's figure out some of our own problems before we start welcoming any and everybody to just come on over and do whatever. 

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 17:53:08 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Works for me. That includes all upper management, board members, human resources, anyone that "looks the other way." No welfare of any type, no education, medical care to stabilize then instant deportation. Self deporting of illegals accomplished. Some will hide and stay but most flaunt their illegality.

How do they flaunt it? I honestly have no idea how the average person would know if someone is here legally or not.

[Phoenix84]

"Rosa Parks broke the law and she is a national hero. George Washington broke the law also and he is the father of our nation."

So did Dylann Roof and James Holmes, what's your point?  That line of thought could be used to justify any criminal action. 

Are you of the opinion you should only have to obey the laws you happen to agree with? 

"I spend my pay how I want, they spend theirs how they want, you spend yours how you want. Accept the fact that people can do what they wan with their money."

Perhaps, but if enough people do this, we'll find ourselves a poor nation indeed.

"Everyone consumes public services and some don't pay now. I don't think schools having to teach is that bad a thing."

Yes, but as Darkhonor said earlier, people pay taxes with the expectation that the money will benefit their countrymen.  It's part of the fundamental social contract.  I pay taxes to support America and Americans, not the whole world.

"I do not want the government keeping track of people here,who are not accused on anything whether they are foreign or not."

You mean other than accused of being here illegally?  And besides, this debate isn't about whether your foreign or not, it's about whether you are in the country legally or not.

"So make it legal and they are not breaking the law. The fact they came here while it is illegal says something about how much they want to be here."

I guess that's one way to solve the problem..... by creating a whole new host of problems.  I think quite the opposite, if they come here illegally they do not respect this country or it's laws.  If I start at a new job, and refuse to do the very first thing the boss tells me to do, can I really say I'm loyal to my employer?

[Phoenix84]

There is a certain expectation of courtesy when you visit another country. You need to recognize that you are a guest in a forign country and behave as such.

If I went to another country, refused to even try to speak the language, broke their laws, and demanded that they bend their culture, laws, and customs to accommodate me, does that make me a very good guest?

If I was visiting a country, even for a short period of time, I would try to learn at least basic phrases in their native language, try to respect their laws, and not expect them to deviate from established norms to accommodate me.  And I expect the same from any visitor to my own country.

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 18:41:47 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

"Rosa Parks broke the law and she is a national hero. George Washington broke the law also and he is the father of our nation."

So did Dylann Roof and James Holmes, what's your point?  That line of thought could be used to justify any criminal action. 

Are you of the opinion you should only have to obey the laws you happen to agree with? 

Yes as long as I am willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

"I spend my pay how I want, they spend theirs how they want, you spend yours how you want. Accept the fact that people can do what they wan with their money."

Perhaps, but if enough people do this, we'll find ourselves a poor nation indeed.

Billions of dollars are spent on alcohol and you begrudge people sending money to their family.  Boo on you, that is just mean.

"Everyone consumes public services and some don't pay now. I don't think schools having to teach is that bad a thing."

Yes, but as Darkhonor said earlier, people pay taxes with the expectation that the money will benefit their countrymen.  It's part of the fundamental social contract.  I pay taxes to support America and Americans, not the whole world.

Change the expectation or the system.  I pay taxes that go to wars that make everything worse.  I would rather the money go to schools.

"I do not want the government keeping track of people here,who are not accused on anything whether they are foreign or not."

You mean other than accused of being here illegally?  And besides, this debate isn't about whether your foreign or not, it's about whether you are in the country legally or not.

"So make it legal and they are not breaking the law. The fact they came here while it is illegal says something about how much they want to be here."

I guess that's one way to solve the problem..... by creating a whole new host of problems.  I think quite the opposite, if they come here illegally they do not respect this country or it's laws.  If I start at a new job, and refuse to do the very first thing the boss tells me to do, can I really say I'm loyal to my employer?

[Phoenix84]

Aug 19, 2015 7:06:29 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Aug 19, 2015 5:38:20 GMT -5 mroped said:

I didn't apply to come here chiver. I just came!
But then I turned myself in...or rather been stopped by a Border Patrol agent based on a phone call from a "willing" citizen.
As the law has it, if you entered US without prior approval you will be detained/imprisoned for the time it takes to process. That could take 3-4 months or 5-6 years or longer in some cases. Imagine sitting there for 5 years for doing nothing but looking for a better life.
That says a lot about "Welcome to United States, the Land of The Free!"

Many of those that come illegally would probably turn themselves in but they fear that unknown about prison so they choose to remain under the radar.

I really appreciate your take on this matter, mroped, as I do that of other immigrants, both "legal" and "illegal". Seeing things through the eyes of both sides helps, so much, to really understand the issue from the human standpoint, instead of just intellectualizing it. Thanks for your input!

Mmhmm, you were a nurse, so I'm sure you can appreciate the public health concerns that illegal immigration poses. 

Furthermore, you have traveled extensively to other countries.  When doing so, did you expect the locals to bend over backwards to accommodate you and your language and customs?  Did you respect their laws?

[mroped]

When traveling to other countries unless is France, the locals bend over backwards to accommodate you and they respect you. But that might be because all they see is dollar signs!

[Deleted]

The simplest [solution] is to freely
admit immigrants, but make them permanently ineligible for bene-
fits. “Net fiscal burden” is not a physical constant. It is a function of
policy. If immigrants paid normal taxes and received zero benefits,
their “net fiscal effect” would almost automatically be positive. If per-
manent ineligibility seems unfair, surely it is less unfair than refusing
to admit immigrants in the first place. And there are many interme-
diate approaches. You could impose a waiting period: No benefits for
10 years.3 You could reduce or limit benefits: Half benefits for life, or
double Medicare co-payments. You could set thresholds: Immigrants
become eligible for benefits after their cumulative taxes exceed
$100,000. Whether you love or loathe these proposals, they are cer-
tainly cheaper and more humane responses to the fiscal effects of
immigration than the status quo.

link

[Phoenix84]

Alright Hickle, why don't you go put your money where your mouth is?

Go find several homeless, unemployed, or otherwise down on their luck people.  Or better yet, find some illegals, and offer them money and a place in your home.  After all, it's only the right thing to do, and once they have your roof over their heads and your money in their pockets and your food in their belly, they can build a better life.

Go on... I'll wait....

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 19:01:19 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Alright Hickle, why don't you go put your money where your mouth is?

Go find several homeless, unemployed, or otherwise down on their luck people.  Or better yet, find some illegals, and offer them money and a place in your home.  After all, it's only the right thing to do, and once they have your roof over their heads and your money in their pockets and your food in their belly, they can build a better life.

Go on... I'll wait....

I am not suggesting anyone have someone move into their house.  I am not suggesting anyone offer anyone any money or a roof over their head.  I am suggesting that people born in other countries have the same inherent God given rights as you and I do, and I would be happy for them to be able to come here and have those rights protected. 

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go spit on someone who has it worse then you.

Or better yet, quit the bitchy attitude.  It is a forum for exchanging ideas.  That is what I am doing.

[Deleted]

what's wrong with lettng the illegals stay?

I wasn't even going to open this thread... but my curiosity got the better of me and I just had to ask... is this a real question?

[mroped]

Alright, we are getting nowhere here. 
Opinions are good, facts are good but repeating them gets us nowhere.

As much as I dislike the immigration laws, old and outdated as they may be I still see the need of having them.
I would prefer some that are not preferential or give advantage to some to the disadvantage of other but the truth of the matter is that we do need immigration laws.

As hickle wants it, is all good but that would imply that all those that come here behave in a civilized manner and competition doesn't reside in " I can do it cheaper" but in I can do it better and faster for the same amount!".
Turning 60-65 and needing special care doesn't mean you pack up and move to US because they have retirement homes.

Would be a perfect world if that would be possible but it is not either one.

The laws and rules that we have now are oriented towards bringing in the best and the brightest. What happens is that we get the brightest... in lying and we already have a big chunk of the population doing that. We simply call them politicians.

As I said before, many of the illegals are afraid of coming out and say "here I am, I would like to become a citizen!" because of the prison time on the horizon.

Also, a big number of them have no intention of staying here forever and they know that as soon as they turn themselves in they will be deported so why bother? 
If they can keep out a week that turns into a month, that turns into a year and so on. More money in the piggy bank and he/she is set when they return to their homeland.

Immigration is a thorny, complicated issue.
How could one with a clear conscious tell another human being :" you cannot come here, you cannot have the same rights that I have, you cannot live a decent life as I do because I don't want you to!"
We don't really say that but that is the message we are sending!

But also we cannot just say "welcome to our home! Eat, drink and be merry. I'll take care of the rest!" 

The issue of immigration is as my mother would say it "a stick with two ends! Which one do you prefer?"

[mmhmm]

Aug 19, 2015 18:47:43 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Aug 19, 2015 7:06:29 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I really appreciate your take on this matter, mroped, as I do that of other immigrants, both "legal" and "illegal". Seeing things through the eyes of both sides helps, so much, to really understand the issue from the human standpoint, instead of just intellectualizing it. Thanks for your input!

Mmhmm, you were a nurse, so I'm sure you can appreciate the public health concerns that illegal immigration poses. 

Furthermore, you have traveled extensively to other countries.  When doing so, did you expect the locals to bend over backwards to accommodate you and your language and customs?  Did you respect their laws?

There is definitely a public health risk. No question about that.

When living abroad, never did we expect the citizens of the countries in which we lived (or visited, for that matter) to adjust to us. It was up to us to adjust to them. We made the choice to go there, so made it a point to obey local laws and customs and to learn the language, at least to a level at which we could communicate adequately.

[Deleted]

Turning 60-65 and needing special care doesn't mean you pack up and move to US because they have retirement homes.

The link I posted earlier had a possible solution for that.  Limit welfare to newcomers.  Say they have to have paid taxes here for 10 years before they are eligible for certain programs, maybe a longer period for other programs. 

[mroped]

I honestly not find anything wrong with the way he sees it. Just know in my heart that is just about impossible to have it the way he describes it.
That doesn't mean he is wrong! Just different.

[sesfw]

I am suggesting that people born in other countries have the same inherent God given rights as you and I do, and I would be happy for them to be able to come here and have those rights protected.

They need to work in their home countries to make it a better place.  That would be a REAL contribution to our world population.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 18, 2015 16:36:21 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The country was made great by ambitious people moving here for a better life.  I have a lot of respect for people willing to leave home and move to a new country in order to better their life and the lives of their family.  The illegal ones would come legally if that were more of an option.  Immigration is one of the things that made us great and we are losing that greatness, lately.

I agree with your sentiment.  I'm very pro-immigration.  I'm very sympathetic to the fact that it's not the fault of illegals that we have had, in effect, an open-borders policy of no immigration enforcement for half a century. It would almost be criminal NOT to come here when it's possible to do it. By the same token, I'm opposed to government punishing businesses for bad policy as well.  Who let 'em in?

I think we DO need to get a handle on who is here, and that means a freeze on ALL immigration for a period of time.  I think welfare and other social welfare benefits should be immediately yanked from ALL immigrants-- sorry, but citizens only.  On that note, I think there should be a path to citizenship for those who are here, who are self-supporting, and who have not been involved in anything criminal from a misdemeanor on up.  For those that can't support themselves- adios.  Same for those who commit crimes- even petty crimes- sorry, but we can do better than you (I would exclude non-violent drug offenses- that's another mess we created).  Once we start seriously sorting through the mess, and there's a system in place- we need to make it a helluva lot easier and faster for the best and brightest from around the world to live and work in the United States legally, and, if they wish, to become citizens.

We're a nation of immigrants.

That being said, it's silly to pretend we don't have a serious problem with illegal aliens from south of our border, and other places around the world.  We need to get a handle on it, and the longer we don't, the more unfair and complicated it will remain for those we do want here.

[chiver78]

Aug 19, 2015 16:39:52 GMT -5 mroped said:

Aug 19, 2015 10:14:15 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I'm not sure I can ask my questions without coming across like an asshole, but I'll give it a shot. you can tell me to pound sand, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Any question you ask, I will answer the best I can in regards to immigration. 

-was your plan always to just stay? were you on a visa of some sort, or did you pass yourself off as a tourist that just never went back home?
No, I was a merchant marine sailor and jumped ship in Canada. Canadian immigration declined my request for residency and I was to be deported 10 days after I crossed the border. You could say that I was between a rock and a hard place: be deported and my trouble would resume on an even bigger scale since I had some physical disagreement with a police officer back home or commit an illegality and enter US without approval 
-why would you not follow the rules, and jump the line? in other words, why do you think it's okay for you to ignore the procedures in place?
I never claimed it was alright to jump the line but as faith would have it sometimes it happens. What we make of it after that is what makes it relevant or not.
-had you been deported, would you have tried coming back again? would you do things differently the next attempt?
Yes but second time I would've stayed under the radar. I believe that once you are deported you are prohibited re entry for five years or so. Would've been back in six months!

thanks for your candid answers. many in your position wouldn't have been so honest.

I can't say I am happy that you broke US immigration law in coming here illegally, even as you say you were between a rock and a hard place. frankly, your physical disagreement with a police officer back home doesn't really compare to some of the other reasons people would apply for asylum. but a lecture from some random stranger on the interwebz doesn't change anything, so I won't bother. I will commend you for pursuing citizenship since that point, though. and it definitely appears that you have become a productive member of society. I just wish you'd done it the right way from the start.

[zibazinski]

Aug 19, 2015 22:21:13 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

How could one with a clear conscious tell another human being :" you cannot come here, you cannot have the same rights that I have, you cannot live a decent life as I do because I don't want you to!"

I don't have a problem with it. I'm trying to build a better life for my own kids, not little Jesus and Guadalupe. I'm sorry their home country is fucked up and doesn't take care of their own citizens, but that's not my problem either. The Mexican government and Mexican parents can worry about providing a better life to the next generation of Mexican citizens. I'd rather see my tax money and US resources go towards providing as much possibility to US citizens as possible.

Billions for welfare and education of US citizens and not a dime for foreign aid or illegal immigrants works just fine for me. If that makes me a selfish asshole I'm good with that.

AMEN!!!

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

How could one with a clear conscious tell another human being :" you cannot come here, you cannot have the same rights that I have, you cannot live a decent life as I do because I don't want you to!"

I'm going to assume your house has no doors or at least no locks?  How many "undocumented visitors" have you allowed in this week?

[sesfw]

I will commend you for pursuing citizenship since that point, though. and it definitely appears that you have become a productive member of society. I just wish you'd done it the right way from the start.


  AMEN to this

If you had done it the right way in the beginning you would have been an excellent example to others.  But ................

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

dondub agreed with my post?