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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 18:52:45 GMT -5
We could also detonate a nuke over New York. They'd both be about equally bad for the US economy. Anyone can come here legally right now. They might have to do some paperwork, go through background checks, health screenings, and prove they have the skills to be able to support themselves somehow when they get here, but they can still come in. What part of that list do you find so onerous that we should just open the borders and say fuck it? I want them to get health screenings first because there are diseases in some parts of the world that we don't have here, and I see no reason to knowingly import them. I want them to have background checks because I see no reason to import criminals and spies. I want them to have some way of supporting themselves when they get here so they don't come just for Section 8 housing, EBT, and all the rest. Why should we stop doing any of that? Give me one compelling reason. The research I read says that America benefits from immigration. I am okay with them doing some paperwork. Okay with some health screenings. I am against them having to prove they can support themselves. If section 8 housing is a problem fix that, by reforming it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 18:59:57 GMT -5
Sweet. Get elected governor of wherever you live and California can send you all of our illegal immigrants. Your state will be rolling in money. California would be in the crapper without its immigrants. It would be the worst thing that possibly could happen to the place.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 19:28:44 GMT -5
I am not from California. The only time I have ever been there was about 6 hours in the airport. That said, I would bet money that California would fall apart without its immigrants.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 19:32:05 GMT -5
What would happen to California's farms without immigrants?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 19:34:47 GMT -5
Immigrants and illegal immigrants aren't the same thing. The tech companies in Silicon Valley would be in big trouble if we deported all their H1B visa immigrants with little notice. However, those immigrants are here legally. The illegal ones don't, by and large, have critical high paying jobs. They, for the most part, work in very low paying low skill jobs. That's why they cost the state so much money. They qualify for welfare programs which legal citizens and immigrants have to cover through our tax dollars.So maybe the answer is to reform welfare.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 18, 2015 19:41:13 GMT -5
these figures are not accurate, for this reason: Nearly half of those expenditures ($12.3 billion) result from the costs of K-12 education for the children of illegal aliens — both those illegally in the country and those born in the United States.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2015 19:41:35 GMT -5
Or deport the people who broke the law to come here and abuse it in the first place. Again, I have no problem with a US citizen needing welfare during hard times. I do have a problem with criminals getting my tax money. That is one answer. I think it is the wrong answer. All the research I have read says that standards of living go up with immigration, not down. The only difference between legal and illegal immigration is the law. Thank you for the conversation.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 18, 2015 19:49:40 GMT -5
OK, and the other $13 billion a year, or $1,190 per legal California household? Do they pay for that with money from the state money tree? If they have one of those in Sacramento, fine let 'em all in. Last time I was at the state capital I didn't see one though. they also neglected the tax contribution of "illegals". i don't mind it when people talk about the cost, but i find it rather annoying when they overlook and overstate things to make their case.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 18, 2015 19:58:45 GMT -5
Honestly I just grabbed the first result from the Google search, because I know that California has a heavy concentration of low skilled illegals and it costs the state money. If the numbers aren't completely accurate, that's fine, but we both know the net annual cost to the state is a positive number. California as a whole is slightly broker after paying for the cost of all related services. Some California businesses and individuals make a killing on the cheap labor. The rest of us subsidize their illegal employees through our tax dollars. no problem. and don't mistake me as a supporter of illegal migrant workers. i am not.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 18, 2015 20:02:09 GMT -5
At work we talk about policies quite a bit. When there is a policy that no one follows we start to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't that all of the employees are assholes and instead maybe the policy needs to be changed
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 18, 2015 20:14:50 GMT -5
At work we talk about policies quite a bit. When there is a policy that no one follows we start to come to the conclusion that maybe it isn't that all of the employees are assholes and instead maybe the policy needs to be changed all authority should be periodically challenged for legitimacy. if it is found illegitimate, it should be removed, to increase liberty for all.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 18, 2015 21:00:33 GMT -5
For a couple more takes on it, try this thread.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 18, 2015 21:14:06 GMT -5
You have a poin there hickle but so does shooby! The system in place could be tuned up and made more efficient as far as legal immigration goes. I for one am one of the "law breakers" as shooby says come again..? sent from my electronic distraction
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Aug 18, 2015 21:52:26 GMT -5
The only difference between legal and illegal immigration is the law.
The only difference between a speeder and a speed limit driver is the LAW. The only difference between a drunk driver and a sober driver is the LAW.
Without LAWS we have no civilization, just chaos.
Illegal is against the LAW .......... be it speeding, drunk driving, jay-walking, or whatever.
BTW ......... illegal immigrants are criminals ......... they are not obeying the LAW
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Aug 18, 2015 22:01:42 GMT -5
Because they takin' good hard workin' 'Merican jobs...that's why!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 18, 2015 23:30:48 GMT -5
I don't know what the solution is - but what I do know is that I am god damn lucky that I happened to be born on this side of a somewhat randomly placed line, instead of on that side. I kind of feel like an entitled jerk to hold something so random and so not their fault against so many people.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 18, 2015 23:32:56 GMT -5
Immigrants and illegal immigrants aren't the same thing. The tech companies in Silicon Valley would be in big trouble if we deported all their H1B visa immigrants with little notice. However, those immigrants are here legally. The farms would be in big trouble without their migrant farm workers, but again they're here on legal short term work visas. They're legal immigrants. The illegal ones don't, by and large, have critical jobs. They, for the most part, work in very low paying low skill jobs. That's why they cost the state so much money. They qualify for welfare programs which legal citizens and immigrants have to cover through our tax dollars. If that were true then over $100 million worth of crops in Georgia wouldn't have rotted when they passed immigration reform laws. Illegals do a lot of work on farms, at least in some states.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 18, 2015 23:37:52 GMT -5
The only difference between legal and illegal immigration is the law.
The only difference between a speeder and a speed limit driver is the LAW. The only difference between a drunk driver and a sober driver is the LAW. Without LAWS we have no civilization, just chaos. Illegal is against the LAW .......... be it speeding, drunk driving, jay-walking, or whatever. BTW ......... illegal immigrants are criminals ......... they are not obeying the LAW
And we once burned people alive because practicing witchcraft was against the law. Laws aren't perfect and sometimes they are just awful. IMO the mere fact something is illegal shouldn't be used to defend one's position. Perhaps defending why the law makes sense in your opinion would be a better strategy.
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Post by mroped on Aug 19, 2015 5:38:20 GMT -5
I didn't apply to come here chiver. I just came! But then I turned myself in...or rather been stopped by a Border Patrol agent based on a phone call from a "willing" citizen. As the law has it, if you entered US without prior approval you will be detained/imprisoned for the time it takes to process. That could take 3-4 months or 5-6 years or longer in some cases. Imagine sitting there for 5 years for doing nothing but looking for a better life. That says a lot about "Welcome to United States, the Land of The Free!"
Many of those that come illegally would probably turn themselves in but they fear that unknown about prison so they choose to remain under the radar.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 19, 2015 7:06:29 GMT -5
I didn't apply to come here chiver. I just came! But then I turned myself in...or rather been stopped by a Border Patrol agent based on a phone call from a "willing" citizen. As the law has it, if you entered US without prior approval you will be detained/imprisoned for the time it takes to process. That could take 3-4 months or 5-6 years or longer in some cases. Imagine sitting there for 5 years for doing nothing but looking for a better life. That says a lot about "Welcome to United States, the Land of The Free!" Many of those that come illegally would probably turn themselves in but they fear that unknown about prison so they choose to remain under the radar. I really appreciate your take on this matter, mroped, as I do that of other immigrants, both "legal" and "illegal". Seeing things through the eyes of both sides helps, so much, to really understand the issue from the human standpoint, instead of just intellectualizing it. Thanks for your input!
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 19, 2015 8:03:22 GMT -5
Well, those crops in Georgia wouldn't have rotted if they'd have put welfare recipients and convicts to work picking them.
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 19, 2015 9:43:51 GMT -5
Well, those crops in Georgia wouldn't have rotted if they'd have put welfare recipients and convicts to work picking them. if you could last a week picking tomatoes in 100 degree weather, i would be very surprised.
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Post by bean29 on Aug 19, 2015 10:13:39 GMT -5
You have a poin there hickle but so does shooby! The system in place could be tuned up and made more efficient as far as legal immigration goes. I for one am one of the "law breakers" as shooby says but I came here for a reason and with a purpose. The purpose being I'm here to stay and do something with my life! The legal process is lengthy beyond reason: background checks and checks and medical examinations. This are after you apply at the embassy and wait on no end for an answer. The applications and even the interviews are theatrics. Anybody can lie and if you do it with conviction, you are in. Standards for levels of education are set so just those that have a certain level- college graduates preferably- have the upper hand. That is good somehow but I believe we churn out plenty of ignorance from our own colleges, why make it a requirement from others? An easier approach and selection of future "American citizens" would be a sponsorship type program where an American citizen sponsors an outsider and guarantees more or less for his/her character. A citizen should be allowed to do that say 2-3 times in a lifetime but only repeat if there is no failure. The sponsorship would refer to "no government support for the first 5 years, employement if possible NOT for the sponsor, at least a basic in English communication" And put limits "per nation/country" every year depending on overall population and living in U.S. Of said nationality citizens. That way you manage to turn the country into a more varied pot More later! I gotta go meet the "problem dude!" Well color me surprised. Are you now "legal" or are you still going through the process? My neighbor (from Poland) recently talked about what she went through when she got her papers. My impression is she overstayed her visa. Not sure if she met her DH, and overstayed to get married or if she overstayed then met her DH. She was a Radiologist in Poland, she said she would have to retake all her classes to hold the same job here. She now hold some type of Certificate or Associate Degree and works as a secretary in a Mammogram Clinic at a local hospital. My understanding is they love her, and why wouldn't they...She does have an accent but her English is very good. Mr. OpEd alluded to what my DH always says. #1- the quotas are heavily slanted to European communities. So if you are from Mexico or South America - your chances of getting in "Legally" are practically nill.
We did Sponsor his Uncle's family when we were first Married - their entrance into the US was not a normal immigration - his Uncle had his permit to work based on his having worked in Agriculture based employment in the US when he was younger. He was here working when DH and I got married and the rest of the family was in Mexico waiting for their papers to come through. It was a "family reunification". They still needed us to sponsor them. They had 5 kids under 19, so we were the only family members that could sponsor the whole family. The youngest one is now about 20. He is working and going to Technical School. One of the kids is a highly skilled carpenter (like the best the company he works for has), one is management for a recycling company. Not sure what the daughter does, she works in an office, goes to school I think. The Mom and Dad both work full time. No one in the family has ever collected welfare. My husband says that when his Dad was in the US working and his Mom was back in Mexico waiting for their papers to come through, some of the Men in town were aware my MIL was alone with small children and they were stalking her and attempted to rape or possibly did rape her (I never clarified the story I was not sure I wanted the details that may have come out).
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 10:14:15 GMT -5
I didn't apply to come here chiver. I just came! But then I turned myself in...or rather been stopped by a Border Patrol agent based on a phone call from a "willing" citizen. As the law has it, if you entered US without prior approval you will be detained/imprisoned for the time it takes to process. That could take 3-4 months or 5-6 years or longer in some cases. Imagine sitting there for 5 years for doing nothing but looking for a better life. That says a lot about "Welcome to United States, the Land of The Free!" Many of those that come illegally would probably turn themselves in but they fear that unknown about prison so they choose to remain under the radar.I'm not sure I can ask my questions without coming across like an asshole, but I'll give it a shot. you can tell me to pound sand, but I'm going to ask anyway. -can you describe the process you went through after meeting Border Patrol, including how long it took for you? -would you have turned yourself in w/o the intervention of a "willing citizen" ? -was your plan always to just stay? were you on a visa of some sort, or did you pass yourself off as a tourist that just never went back home? -why would you not follow the rules, and jump the line? in other words, why do you think it's okay for you to ignore the procedures in place? -had you been deported, would you have tried coming back again? would you do things differently the next attempt? moving forward, -would you turn in someone who was here illegally? -since you seem to think the system's broken, how would you fix it? that last line of yours really bothers me. they clearly know they are doing something wrong, but they do it anyway. how about you just do things the right way and not live in fear? kind of like when you teach a child to never lie - if you never lie, you don't have to worry about keeping your stories straight, yanno?
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Aug 19, 2015 10:26:34 GMT -5
Well, those crops in Georgia wouldn't have rotted if they'd have put welfare recipients and convicts to work picking them. Chiver ...... you asked very good questions and I would like to know the honest answers also.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 19, 2015 10:35:25 GMT -5
I'm guessing that most don't come to America illegally because things in their home countries are going wonderfully and they just want a change of scenery. In many cases, living in jail in the US may still seem like a better option than staying where they are. At least you don't have to worry about starvation or having your entire family slaughtered by militia members.
Not saying that applies in all cases, but I can understand the mentality.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 10:43:58 GMT -5
I'm guessing that most don't come to America illegally because things in their home countries are going wonderfully and they just want a change of scenery. In many cases, living in jail in the US may still seem like a better option than staying where they are. At least you don't have to worry about starvation or having your entire family slaughtered by militia members. Not saying that applies in all cases, but I can understand the mentality. for those cases where that applies, I applaud their resourcefulness in finding a way out. I also encourage them to apply for asylum - also one of the legal options available to them. for those cases where that does not apply (like the town I grew up in...) where families send money back home to Brazil and teach their newly-arrived illegal relatives how to work the system? um, no. get in line, like my dad did.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 19, 2015 10:47:42 GMT -5
I'm guessing that most don't come to America illegally because things in their home countries are going wonderfully and they just want a change of scenery. In many cases, living in jail in the US may still seem like a better option than staying where they are. At least you don't have to worry about starvation or having your entire family slaughtered by militia members. Not saying that applies in all cases, but I can understand the mentality. average income in Nicaragua is $150/month. i am imagining that many people who come here from there can make that in a DAY.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 19, 2015 11:03:36 GMT -5
VB, when I came here I had vaccines for illnesses that are considered extinct like small pox and such. In most countries, vaccination is mandatory or at least in communism was. I manage to dodge it until I got drafted and then they filled my ass with everything under the sun! I think you are from Europe, correct? I would expect you to have the proper shots. Mexico and central America are not especially proficient vaccinating the peasants. And my comment should have qualified the fact, I am talking about the children. If they are illegal, I am sure they are not up to date on their shots, and I sincerely doubt mom and dad brought their children's medical records with them across the border. My husband's family was up-to-date on all their vaccines, other than the Polio Vaccine that was given to one of my BIL's that was a placebo...the Doctor went to jail for pocketing the $$ that should have been used to give the patients the proper vaccines, but crooked Dr's practice in the US too.
As far as I understand it, vaccines are pretty much available everywhere, it is the CO parents that refuse to vaccinate their children b/c they believe the herd will protect their children that cause more problems from what I understand. ESL never caused my children any problems in school. My DD highly objected to students with LD issues being mainstreamed into her classroom b/c they were so disruptive they kept teachers from teaching and learning from occurring, but no one seems to be concerned about that.
My DH says that many illegals that are working earn significantly more than minimum wage. The workers that an illegal alien is keeping from a job is the lazy worker that doesn't consistently show up and or shows up drunk or high, or the person who has physical disabilities that keep them from performing the work. Or those workers at a near inner city McD's had on staff last weekend when I was dropping one of my kids off for a class they were taking. They moved so Slooww I could have gone home and made my own damn cup of coffee faster.
What do we desperately need right now? Skilled Construction workers, and semi skilled factory workers and agricultural workers. Do construction and factory workers traditionally have a college degree - NO. They need basic Math skills and Muscle. That is why these populations can find work. From what I understand the H1B whatever Engineers and computer science majors are being brought into this country to depress Skilled wages, but immigration laws favor this type of worker over the type we truly need.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 19, 2015 11:22:31 GMT -5
I'm guessing that most don't come to America illegally because things in their home countries are going wonderfully and they just want a change of scenery. In many cases, living in jail in the US may still seem like a better option than staying where they are. At least you don't have to worry about starvation or having your entire family slaughtered by militia members. Not saying that applies in all cases, but I can understand the mentality. This is why illegals don't bother me so much. It isn't like they have things really great here compared to most americans. But, if this is better than where they came from & they are willing to jobs most americans won't touch, then who am I to judge. Odds are I would make similar decisions if I were in their shoes.
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