what's wrong with lettng the illegals stay?

[bean29]

Aug 18, 2015 19:32:25 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Immigrants and illegal immigrants aren't the same thing. The tech companies in Silicon Valley would be in big trouble if we deported all their H1B visa immigrants with little notice. However, those immigrants are here legally. The farms would be in big trouble without their migrant farm workers, but again they're here on legal short term work visas. They're legal immigrants. The illegal ones don't, by and large, have critical jobs. They, for the most part, work in very low paying low skill jobs. That's why they cost the state so much money. They qualify for welfare programs which legal citizens and immigrants have to cover through our tax dollars.

Pretty sure you are wrong on this.  California like Wisconsin has a lot of Dairy Farms.  Cows have to be Milked 2x a day seven days a week.  Dairy Farmers have an extremely difficult time finding people willing to do this job and commit to this type of schedule.  They were one of the groups that testified before congress asking for Amnesty.

Unlike migrant workers who can obtain a work permit for seasonal agricultural jobs, foreign workers on dairy farms can't get the H-2A visa because their jobs are year-round rather than temporary.

Farmers say most people don't want to milk cows or take care of animals when, for the same starting wage of $10 to $12 an hour, they could find a job that's less physically demanding.

After a printing plant in Waterloo closed and left hundreds of people out of work, only a couple of them applied for jobs at nearby Crave Brothers Dairy Farm, which requires staffing 24 hours a day, 365 days a week.

It's challenging to find qualified help, even in a rural community where many people were born and raised on a farm, said farm owner Mark Crave.

The dairy industry worries about strict enforcement of immigration policies. A Texas A&M University study showed that, if federal labor and immigration policies were to result in the loss of just half of the 57,000 foreign-born workers on dairy farms, thousands of other people would also lose their jobs from farm closures and the adverse effect on the agriculture industry.

The study found that farms using immigrant labor supply more than three-fifths of the nation's milk.  www.jsonline.com/business/seeking-workers-wisconsin-dairy-farmers-call-for-immigration-reform-7q8gmld-188616031.htmlSorry I have this box here and don't know how to delete it.  I personally think our food is expensive enough without having to pay people who really don't want to work more than $10-$12 an hour to motivate them to accept a job.

[Angel!]

Aug 19, 2015 9:43:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 19, 2015 8:03:22 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

 Well, those crops in Georgia wouldn't have rotted if they'd have put welfare recipients and convicts to work picking them. 

if you could last a week picking tomatoes in 100 degree weather, i would be very surprised.

Also, a lot of times you work 12 hours or more a day, every day.  And farms don't qualify for OT pay.

The people that do those jobs work their asses off.  Most of us probably couldn't hack it between the weather & the hours & the manual labor.

[Value Buy]

Pat, you hate Texas and Indiana.
 What state would you like to live in? And do not say Florida, because it is over run with illegals

[zibazinski]

That's for sure.

[weltschmerz]

How many is TOO many? Look at what's happening in Greece, Italy and France. It's an invasion. It's a wall-to-wall crush of humanity. They're tearing down fences, breaking into trucks, sleeping shoulder to shoulder in parks, beaches and public square, storming tunnels. You can no longer take your children to the park, and tourists, which are a huge source of income, are refusing to come.

Many need medical care and all have to be fed.

Thousands more arrive every day.

What to do?

[swamp]

Aug 19, 2015 11:25:16 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Aug 18, 2015 19:32:25 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

Immigrants and illegal immigrants aren't the same thing. The tech companies in Silicon Valley would be in big trouble if we deported all their H1B visa immigrants with little notice. However, those immigrants are here legally. The farms would be in big trouble without their migrant farm workers, but again they're here on legal short term work visas. They're legal immigrants. The illegal ones don't, by and large, have critical jobs. They, for the most part, work in very low paying low skill jobs. That's why they cost the state so much money. They qualify for welfare programs which legal citizens and immigrants have to cover through our tax dollars.

Pretty sure you are wrong on this.  California like Wisconsin has a lot of Dairy Farms.  Cows have to be Milked 2x a day seven days a week.  Dairy Farmers have an extremely difficult time finding people willing to do this job and commit to this type of schedule.  They were one of the groups that testified before congress asking for Amnesty.

Unlike migrant workers who can obtain a work permit for seasonal agricultural jobs, foreign workers on dairy farms can't get the H-2A visa because their jobs are year-round rather than temporary.

Farmers say most people don't want to milk cows or take care of animals when, for the same starting wage of $10 to $12 an hour, they could find a job that's less physically demanding.

After a printing plant in Waterloo closed and left hundreds of people out of work, only a couple of them applied for jobs at nearby Crave Brothers Dairy Farm, which requires staffing 24 hours a day, 365 days a week.

It's challenging to find qualified help, even in a rural community where many people were born and raised on a farm, said farm owner Mark Crave.

The dairy industry worries about strict enforcement of immigration policies. A Texas A&M University study showed that, if federal labor and immigration policies were to result in the loss of just half of the 57,000 foreign-born workers on dairy farms, thousands of other people would also lose their jobs from farm closures and the adverse effect on the agriculture industry.

The study found that farms using immigrant labor supply more than three-fifths of the nation's milk.  www.jsonline.com/business/seeking-workers-wisconsin-dairy-farmers-call-for-immigration-reform-7q8gmld-188616031.htmlSorry I have this box here and don't know how to delete it.  I personally think our food is expensive enough without having to pay people who really don't want to work more than $10-$12 an hour to motivate them to accept a job.

I'm pretty sure the large farms here are staffed by illegals.   Locals don't want the job. 

They also keep to themselves, don't bring their families, and pretty much fly under the radar.  

[OldCoyote]

I know lots of illegals,  I know a lot of people that came here illegally,  but since have received their papers.

Many that I know came here illegally that now have their papers were not from Mexico or Central America.

Seven years ago, probably 80% of the people that I worked around were illegal.  After the market and housing crash most of those went back home.

Many of them that are still here own houses, have insurance,   Not one that I know of has ever collected welfare,  One  woman I know makes $18 an hour, that's because she is worth that.

[Deleted]

I do not understand why people want to restrict immigration when they think the problem is welfare.  Why not push for welfare reform instead of hating on people wanting a better life?

[midjd]

None of those people coming in have education or in some cases even an understanding of basic hygiene, that's a disaster they likely will never recover from.

The same can be said for a lot of Americans...

(I do agree with your last sentence, though )

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 15:14:43 GMT -5 @patstab said:

No one is hating people for wanting a better life. My DIL is Russian took her 10 years to become a citizen she is now a proud one.

But you have to have limits, if you let them overrun the place accepting them they will undo exactly what they go there for crushing it like is happening in Europe. None of those people coming in have education or in some cases even an understanding of basic hygiene, that's a disaster they likely will never recover from.

I like Indiana but they have this looney right wing governor, hope it goes to the middle we don't need either extreme.

Hold tight to the constitution and they can't change things too bad for the worse.  It is the people here who want to do away with religious freedom in the name of equality, do away with the right to bear arms in the name of the school children, and do away with freedom of speech in order not to trigger some bad emotion, etc who are the biggest threat to our way of life.

[bean29]

I like Indiana but they have this looney right wing governor, hope it goes to the middle we don't need either extreme

This is actually a problem with American Politics right now.  Both parties but especially republicans are so extreme to the poles, and they don't compromise or negotiate anything.  "It's my way or the highway".  I also think the republicans are trying to "fix" the vote, gerrymandering, voter ID, to marginalize groups that don[t typically vote for them.    It is just feeding the feelings of anger and disenfranchisement some groups feel.

[Phoenix84]

Aug 18, 2015 16:36:21 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The country was made great by ambitious people moving here for a better life.  I have a lot of respect for people willing to leave home and move to a new country in order to better their life and the lives of their family.  The illegal ones would come legally if that were more of an option.  Immigration is one of the things that made us great and we are losing that greatness, lately.

1. They broke the law. This should be self explanatory, but if you break the law, you should be caught and punished according to the crime.

2. Many of the immigrants from Mexico and South America don't seek to integrate into American society and become Americans, they just want to work and send money home.  And this is a significant amount. I don't recall the specific article off hand, but I read that it tops 12 billion a year annually just to Mexico alone. That's 12 billion+ every year that illegals earn and send off shore. Wouldn't that money be better suited to staying in the U.S?

3. They consume public services, and sometimes don't even pay for them. Many times illegals work "off the books" and don't pay taxes. They flood our public schools with non native English speakers that need significant remedial help and ESL classes, which puts a burden on public schools and hurts American kids.

4. It's a national security issue.  Again, should be self explanatory. Keeping track of foreign nationals in your boarders is one of the pillars of strong national security.  You want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.

5. The fact that they came here illegally disrespects this country, it's laws, and most of all those who went to the time and expense of immigrating here legally.

6. Allowing illegals to stay uncontested just encourages more of the same.

7. It's a public health issue.  Do these illegals have communicable, deadly diseases that can spread to Americans?  How do you know?

That's just off the top of my head, I could probably come up with more reasons if I wanted to keep going.

[Phoenix84]

Aug 18, 2015 16:49:12 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Aug 18, 2015 16:47:17 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

I think some of the rules are a little over the top, but I wouldn't get rid of all of them together.

Would you have a lot more legal immigration?  Such that anyone who really wants to come can, provided they are not criminals?  I think that is where it should be.

I would be fine with expanding the number of people who are allowed to immigrate yearly, as long as they are educated and will contribute to society.

[mroped]

Aug 19, 2015 10:14:15 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

I'm not sure I can ask my questions without coming across like an asshole, but I'll give it a shot. you can tell me to pound sand, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Any question you ask, I will answer the best I can in regards to immigration. 

-can you describe the process you went through after meeting Border Patrol, including how long it took for you?

He took us(there were two of us) back to the barracks to be processed. Nice fellow the officer, he treated us alright, we didn't resist and just complied with what he asked of us. That gave us a few points "up" that proved valuable later at the hearings.
I spent 3 months and 4 days in INS detention in St Albans, Vermont- 3 days and Leesport Pa-3 months.
Because of the way I acted when I was stopped, the agent managed to talk his boss into lowering my bail/bond from $25000 to$5000. I had a friend from Canada wiring me $2000 and a family from Selinsgrove Pa sponsoring me and posting my bail. In immigration, you have to post minimum 40%.
From the day I entered US to the day I became a citizen, the whole process took 10 years and 9 months.


-would you have turned yourself in w/o the intervention of a "willing citizen" ?
No. My target was Chicago where I was to apply for Canadian residency and within six months returned to Canada. There was this thing...5'-7", dark curly hair( Algerian mind you!), dark eyes and so on(insert whatever pleases you) that was waiting for me. Trouble is that she gave up fast, about eight months after I left
-was your plan always to just stay? were you on a visa of some sort, or did you pass yourself off as a tourist that just never went back home?
No, I was a merchant marine sailor and jumped ship in Canada. Canadian immigration declined my request for residency and I was to be deported 10 days after I crossed the border. You could say that I was between a rock and a hard place: be deported and my trouble would resume on an even bigger scale since I had some physical disagreement with a police officer back home or commit an illegality and enter US without approval 
-why would you not follow the rules, and jump the line? in other words, why do you think it's okay for you to ignore the procedures in place?
I never claimed it was alright to jump the line but as faith would have it sometimes it happens. What we make of it after that is what makes it relevant or not.
-had you been deported, would you have tried coming back again? would you do things differently the next attempt?
Yes but second time I would've stayed under the radar. I believe that once you are deported you are prohibited re entry for five years or so. Would've been back in six months!


moving forward,
-would you turn in someone who was here illegally?
No but I would advise them to seek a legal way of staying. If it is someone that I can figure that he/she is not a good element then yes, I'd probably turn them in. I have nothing against the average working Jose Schmoe.


-since you seem to think the system's broken, how would you fix it?
The law states that if you are in custody for illegal entry then you should appear before a judge within 30 days. That does happen but you just see the judge for ten minutes so you can be rescheduled. Waste of time not to mention money spent on everything from judge to logistics.
If you are going before a judge why not take care of the problem? is quite simple: you either have a good reason to stay and should be considered or you are full of shit so hit the road!



that last line of yours really bothers me. they clearly know they are doing something wrong, but they do it anyway. how about you just do things the right way and not live in fear? kind of like when you teach a child to never lie - if you never lie, you don't have to worry about keeping your stories straight, 

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 16:36:12 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Aug 18, 2015 16:36:21 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The country was made great by ambitious people moving here for a better life.  I have a lot of respect for people willing to leave home and move to a new country in order to better their life and the lives of their family.  The illegal ones would come legally if that were more of an option.  Immigration is one of the things that made us great and we are losing that greatness, lately.

1. They broke the law. This should be self explanatory, but if you break the law, you should be caught and punished according to the crime.

Rosa Parks broke the law and she is a national hero.  George Washington broke the law also and he is the father of our nation.

2. Many of the immigrants from Mexico and South America don't seek to integrate into American society and become Americans, they just want to work and send money home.  And this is a significant amount. I don't recall the specific article off hand, but I read that it tops 12 billion a year annually just to Mexico alone. That's 12 billion+ every year that illegals earn and send off shore. Wouldn't that money be better suited to staying in the U.S?

I spend my pay how I want, they spend theirs how they want, you spend yours how you want.  Accept the fact that people can do what they wan with their money.

3. They consume public services, and sometimes don't even pay for them. Many times illegals work "off the books" and don't pay taxes. They flood our public schools with non native English speakers that need significant remedial help and ESL classes, which puts a burden on public schools and hurts American kids.

Everyone consumes public services and some don't pay now. I don't think schools having to teach is that bad a thing.

4. It's a national security issue.  Again, should be self explanatory. Keeping track of foreign nationals in your boarders is one of the pillars of strong national security.  You want to keep the criminals and terrorists out.

I do not want the government keeping track of people here,who are not accused on anything whether they are foreign or not.

5. The fact that they came here illegally disrespects this country, it's laws, and most of all those who went to the time and expense of immigrating here legally.

So make it legal and they are not breaking the law.  The fact they came here while it is illegal says something about how much they want to be here.

6. Allowing illegals to stay uncontested just encourages more of the same.

Not if we make it easier to come legally.

That's just off the top of my head, I could probably come up with more reasons if I wanted to keep going.

[sesfw]

Why not push for welfare reform instead of hating on people wanting a better life?

I don't hate people that want a better life.  I intensely dislike the people that come here illegally with their illegal children .... have them educated on my tax dollar, then won't go back to make their home country a better place.  I also dislike them bringing their way of life to this country and whining because I don't bend over backwards to 'embrace' their way of living.

Sorry, you CHOSE to come here ........ you can dang well choose to embrace this life, language, and laws.  I don't like 'press 1 for English', press 2 for espanol, etc.  If you wish to fly your home flag ..... do it UNDER and smaller than the Stars and Stripes of the US.

[mroped]

Aug 19, 2015 16:39:17 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Aug 18, 2015 16:49:12 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Would you have a lot more legal immigration?  Such that anyone who really wants to come can, provided they are not criminals?  I think that is where it should be.

I would be fine with expanding the number of people who are allowed to immigrate yearly, as long as they are educated and will contribute to society.

Again with the education!
We produce our own educated people. That's not to say that if someone from Russia say, has an MD and he wants to come here we should decline him because he is educated.
I know a few people that back in their countries of origin they held engineering degrees or masters in various fields. They got approved because of that but no one hires them at their level of education because for whatever reason their English sucks and it doesn't get any better. So now you basically have a man that use to run a shift of 200 people in a big industrial complex but now has to do labor because his language skills are nonexistent. And he is utterly miserable! Do we want that from those that we allow in U.S.?
Are we going to say : as long as you are educated you can be miserable with us!?

And even American born and raised: NOT EVERYONE needs to go to college!

[mroped]

One way to combat illegal immigration would be to go after the employers that hire them.
Introduce outrageous fines not just a few hundred bucks and if necessary forfeiture of assets of said employer and see if they still wanna hire illegals.

But then construction companies, landscapers, farmers would have to pay full wages which in turn translate into higher prices all over.

[Deleted]

The rights that many Americans value so highly, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, rights to peacefully assemble, etc are not rights given to us by the US.  They are given to us and to all humans by our Creator.  Those rights and many others are our birth right.  I am fortunate to live in a country that protects many of them. Others are no so fortunate. That they want the same protection of those rights is very understandable to me.

[Value Buy]

Hickle, are you an illegal alien?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

One way to combat illegal immigration would be to go after the employers that hire them.
Introduce outrageous fines not just a few hundred bucks and if necessary forfeiture of assets of said employer and see if they still wanna hire illegals.

Oh the fine is more than a few hundred, but it's still not near enough to kick them in the balls.   Tyson gets fined all the time for actively recruting illegals and DH's plant has been busted for forging paperwork so when inspectors show up it all looks legit.    They get a six figure slap on the wrist and a "don't do this again please" wink wink.

They make a big production out of cleaning house and then a few days later bring in a brand new batch of illegals.  Then they tell all the peons since they got fined no raises this year.  Boom, their bottom line is just fine again.

DH said there is a line out the door every day of people trying to apply to the plant he worked at.  They don't get hired b/c Tyson is trucking in illegals by the thousands.   They send people down to recruit in Mexico and then pay people to bring them up here.

You won't get it to stop b/c  the lobbyists are too powerful.  Politicians talk a good game but they know who feeds them.  

[mroped]

As far as legal processing goes, I'd go with simple rules:
- applicants and their dependents should not be of more than 35 years of age at the time of interview
- at least basic english
- sound of body and mind
-no criminal record 
-minimum high school diploma

A balanced number of men and women should be processed.
Young families with children have priority as long as they pass the above requirements

That would not remove from the equation(or should not) the occasional migration of a couple or individual over 35 that is well educated and passes all other requirements.
War/conflict zone applicants don't have to fulfill the requirements for age or language skills

All personnel at embassies/consulates all over the world should be American citizens not locals. Locals are typically the ones asking for "favors" to those in charge while they are getting huge kick backs sometimes from people that can barely support themselves but fully know that they won't get thru the door without the locals say so

[mroped]

Aug 19, 2015 17:08:13 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The rights that many Americans value so highly, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, rights to peacefully assemble, etc are not rights given to us by the US.  They are given to us and to all humans by our Creator.  Those rights and many others are our birth right.  I am fortunate to live in a country that protects many of them. Others are no so fortunate. That they want the same protection of those rights is very understandable to me.

Not all countries have oil hickle or at least something that money can be made from so why bother.
Even those that do have oil and such(ie Iraq) we don't care or they don't care about equality and rights and such. God to all is money and as long as money can be made then we are in. If not...who cares? Next!

[Green Eyed Lady]

Aug 19, 2015 17:08:13 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The rights that many Americans value so highly, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, rights to peacefully assemble, etc are not rights given to us by the US.  They are given to us and to all humans by our Creator.  Those rights and many others are our birth right.  I am fortunate to live in a country that protects many of them. Others are no so fortunate. That they want the same protection of those rights is very understandable to me.

I feel blessed myself, hickle. Very much so. I know others are not so fortunate and they want the same blessings I have. It was simply my good luck that I was born here. Again...others are not so fortunate and I don't blame them one bit for wanting a better life. Come and get it, but do it the right way.  If immigration laws change to make it easier - fine - but as they stand now, they should be obeyed.

And then? Don't you (illegals) dare disparage my country with statements like "Home of the free, huh?" when you come here illegally, take advantage of our freedoms and resources, suck up every bit of assistance you can get, whine about how "hard" and how much "time" it takes to do the right thing, and basically thumb your nose at those who came before you and did it the right way. If that's what you (illegals) want to do, get your sorry, ungrateful ass back to where you came from.  

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 17:11:50 GMT -5 mroped said:

As far as legal processing goes, I'd go with simple rules:
- applicants and their dependents should not be of more than 35 years of age at the time of interview
- at least basic english
- sound of body and mind
-no criminal record 
-minimum high school diploma

A balanced number of men and women should be processed.
Young families with children have priority as long as they pass the above requirements

That would not remove from the equation(or should not) the occasional migration of a couple or individual over 35 that is well educated and passes all other requirements.
War/conflict zone applicants don't have to fulfill the requirements for age or language skills

All personnel at embassies/consulates all over the world should be American citizens not locals. Locals are typically the ones asking for "favors" to those in charge while they are getting huge kick backs sometimes from people that can barely support themselves but fully know that they won't get thru the door without the locals say so

why is someone under 35 years old more deserving then someone older then 35?  No when need to not have arbitrary rules.  Let people come in if they are not criminals and want to come here. I admit there might come a time to limit it, but don't concede that, maybe there is not a number too big. 

Boo on the  basic english requirement.  And boo on the high school diploma requirement.  You don't need to speak English or have a high school diploma to want a better life.

[djAdvocate]

GEL!!! where you been?  you doing ok?

[Deleted]

Aug 19, 2015 17:17:14 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Aug 19, 2015 17:08:13 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The rights that many Americans value so highly, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, rights to peacefully assemble, etc are not rights given to us by the US.  They are given to us and to all humans by our Creator.  Those rights and many others are our birth right.  I am fortunate to live in a country that protects many of them. Others are no so fortunate. That they want the same protection of those rights is very understandable to me.

I feel blessed myself, hickle. Very much so. I know others are not so fortunate and they want the same blessings I have. It was simply my good luck that I was born here. Again...others are not so fortunate and I don't blame them one bit for wanting a better life. Come and get it, but do it the right way.  If immigration laws change to make it easier - fine - but as they stand now, they should be obeyed.

And then? Don't you (illegals) dare disparage my country with statements like "Home of the free, huh?" when you come here illegally, take advantage of our freedoms and resources, suck up every bit of assistance you can get, whine about how "hard" and how much "time" it takes to do the right thing, and basically thumb your nose at those who came before you and did it the right way. If that's what you (illegals) want to do, get your sorry, ungrateful ass back to where you came from.  

We have a constitution that protects our rights.  Many of the posters here want to piss on it, especially when it comes to guns, or right to religion or speech, etc, but if we can protect it, it will protect us.  If we don't protect it we are going down the pisser anyway.  The things you worry about in your post are really that worrisome to me.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Aug 19, 2015 17:18:37 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

GEL!!! where you been?  you doing ok?

I'm very well, dj. Thank you for asking. Hope you are also?? I've been around - just staying away from the "hard" stuff....

.....until now!

[weltschmerz]

Aug 19, 2015 17:08:13 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The rights that many Americans value so highly, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, rights to peacefully assemble, etc are not rights given to us by the US.  They are given to us and to all humans by our Creator.  Those rights and many others are our birth right.  I am fortunate to live in a country that protects many of them. Others are no so fortunate. That they want the same protection of those rights is very understandable to me.

Who? You forgot to say 'It is my belief that they were given to us by our Creator."

You can't state it as fact.

[Value Buy]

Aug 19, 2015 17:24:56 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Aug 19, 2015 17:08:13 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The rights that many Americans value so highly, like freedom of speech and freedom of religion, rights to peacefully assemble, etc are not rights given to us by the US.  They are given to us and to all humans by our Creator.  Those rights and many others are our birth right.  I am fortunate to live in a country that protects many of them. Others are no so fortunate. That they want the same protection of those rights is very understandable to me.

Who? You forgot to say 'It is my belief that they were given to us by our Creator."

You can't state it as fact.

Our Declaration of Independence kind of did say that.