what's wrong with lettng the illegals stay?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 20, 2015 9:53:57 GMT -5 sesfw said:

I will commend you for pursuing citizenship since that point, though. and it definitely appears that you have become a productive member of society. I just wish you'd done it the right way from the start.


  AMEN to this

If you had done it the right way in the beginning you would have been an excellent example to others.  But ................

Even Donald Trump acknowledges that we give incentives to do it the wrong way. Who's fault is that?  It takes 10 years to do it the "right way", or you can just come on in now?  We need to stop dangling the carrot, and people will stop reaching for it.

[Green Eyed Lady]

It's hard to do the right thing lots of times.   Doesn't mean we shouldn't still do the right thing.

"Sorry....it was just toooooo hard and took toooooo long to earn the money for that dress so I just stole it. Quit dangling it in front of me and that wouldn't have happened."

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 20, 2015 10:02:48 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's hard to do the right thing lots of times.   Doesn't mean we shouldn't still do the right thing.

"Sorry....it was just toooooo hard and took toooooo long to earn the money for that dress so I just stole it. Quit dangling it in front of me and that wouldn't have happened."

We're not talking about a dress. We are talking life and death.  We're talking abject misery, prison for political 'crimes' and other things that people around the world face- and everyone knows that if they can just make it to the southern border of the United States, they've got a shot.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Oh please.  What percentage of illegals flowing across our border are fleeing incarceration for political crimes?  Maybe .000001 percent?  Give me a break.  It tugs at the heartstrings but it isn't reality.  People come here because of the easy money from employers who can't get Americans to do their jobs.  They come here because we hand out food, clothing, shelter and medical care like there is an unlimited supply.  They come here to work and send our dollars back to their country - not injecting it back into our economy.  So don't give me that infomercial "political crimes" stuff.  It happens, sure....but not that often.

I know we aren't talking about a dress. We are talking about right and wrong. There are reasons we have immigration rules in place - so that our own country doesn't turn into one of those countries people are dying to get away from. I can't stand to see anyone - especially a child - go hungry or without a place to live. I absolutely feel for those who feel they have no choice. We cannot absorb them without our own country going down the shitter. There is a point where common sense and a duty to your own people has to override the compassion you and I and most other people feel. Because....who's going to take us in when we've become one of those countries?

We can't let these people in and then deny them assistance as someone else suggested. We can't say, "You can come here but you have to die on the street." because we aren't going to help.  Our country was built from the labor of immigrants but those immigrants came here to help make our country strong - not to destroy it.   

As Dr. Phil would say, "How's it working out for you?"  In the last couple of years, I've had contact with a couple hundred illegals. Not ONE of them fled because of any political crimes. They came here, and they will say it with no problem, because we give them stuff for free.  Don't believe it if you don't want to. Sometimes I find it difficult even when it's as clear as the nose on my face.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 10:45:56 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Oh please.  What percentage of illegals flowing across our border are fleeing incarceration for political crimes?  Maybe .000001 percent?  Give me a break.  It tugs at the heartstrings but it isn't reality.  People come here because of the easy money from employers who can't get Americans to do their jobs.  They come here because we hand out food, clothing, shelter and medical care like there is an unlimited supply.  They come here to work and send our dollars back to their country - not injecting it back into our economy.  So don't give me that infomercial "political crimes" stuff.  It happens, sure....but not that often.

I know we aren't talking about a dress. We are talking about right and wrong. There are reasons we have immigration rules in place - so that our own country doesn't turn into one of those countries people are dying to get away from. I can't stand to see anyone - especially a child - go hungry or without a place to live. I absolutely feel for those who feel they have no choice. We cannot absorb them without our own country going down the shitter. There is a point where common sense and a duty to your own people has to override the compassion you and I and most other people feel. Because....who's going to take us in when we've become one of those countries?

We can't let these people in and then deny them assistance as someone else suggested. We can't say, "You can come here but you have to die on the street." because we aren't going to help.  Our country was built from the labor of immigrants but those immigrants came here to help make our country strong - not to destroy it.   

As Dr. Phil would say, "How's it working out for you?" 

i am not sure any of this is true, GEL, but i don't have time to dissect it point by point.  but i think most are covered here:

www.immigrationpolicy.org/high-school/top-10-myths-about-immigration

and we can afford a LOT in this, the wealthiest nation on earth, IF WE MAKE IT A PRIORITY.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

People come here because of the easy money from employers who can't get Americans to do their jobs.

Correction, the employers don't want to pay Americans to do the job so they go across the boarder and hire people to come up here.  Upon arrival they forge documents for the inspectors.  When they get busted they lay low for a few days and then go back down to get the next batch.

DH said there is a line EVERY DAY of people trying to get jobs at his old plant.  None of them get hired b/c Tyson is trucking illegals up here on a regular basis.

DH said what it amounts to is you have an indentured servant.  He saw a lot of violations that if they understood their rights would have been reported to the DOL.  However when you know the company knows you're an illegal what are you going to do about it?

I do not believe it makes me a lazy American to exercise my rights as an employee and expect my employer to do the same.

The problem, IMO isn't that Americans won't do the jobs, it is that corporations have gotten comfortable with the fact they have a vast pool of indentured labor and nobody will lift a finger to stop them.  And Paul is right (did I just say that?) it isn't just Mexicans.  We have a lot of illegal Sudanese immigrants here working the same jobs.

If the government had some balls and politicians weren't in corporate pockets we might see some change.  We have to make it hurt more to hire illegals than we do to hire them.  Then it will stop.

Once Tyson and their ilk can't go down to Mexico and lure people up here then for the most part they'll stop coming since there is no more carrot being dangled in front of them.

.

[Green Eyed Lady]

It's all true, dj.  My facts don't come from some study that isn't even close to accurate. It's comes from real-life experience.  As I edited my post above, in the last couple years, I have been in direct contact with hundreds of illegals and not ONE of them fled for some political reason. They will tell you why without compunction.    They are good people. They are looking for a better life. They aren't horrible criminal intent on raping their neighbors....but they are here illegally.  And that needs to stop.

Just for example....read a "study" awhile ago that said under the Obama administration....some huge number of illegals had been deported - more than any in history. What they study failed to mention was that a whole bunch of these people were deported 3, 4, 5 times each.  They count them 3, 4, 5 times.  These studies are shit.  You can believe what you read or you can believe someone who is actually in the trenches.  Up to you.  I won't argue what I know is right from real-life experience.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Aug 20, 2015 10:59:44 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

People come here because of the easy money from employers who can't get Americans to do their jobs.

Correction, the employers don't want to pay Americans to do the job so they go across the boarder and hire people to come up here.  Upon arrival they forge documents for the inspectors.  When they get busted they lay low for a few days and then go back down to get the next batch.

DH said there is a line EVERY DAY of people trying to get jobs at his old plant.  None of them get hired b/c Tyson is trucking illegals up here on a regular basis.

DH said what it amounts to is you have an indentured servant.  He saw a lot of violations that if they understood their rights would have been reported to the DOL.  However when you know the company knows you're an illegal what are you going to do about it?

I do not believe it makes me a lazy American to exercise my rights as an employee and expect my employer to do the same.

The problem, IMO isn't that Americans won't do the jobs, it is that corporations have gotten comfortable with the fact they have a vast pool of indentured labor and nobody will lift a finger to stop them.  And Paul is right (did I just say that?) it isn't just Mexicans.  We have a lot of illegal Sudanese immigrants here working the same jobs.

If the government had some balls and politicians weren't in corporate pockets we might see some change.  We have to make it hurt more to hire illegals than we do to hire them.  Then it will stop.

Once Tyson and their ilk can't go down to Mexico and lure people up here then for the most part they'll stop coming since there is no more carrot being dangled in front of them.

.

Agreed.  That's certainly true.  When I said Americans won't do the job, I should have mentioned they won't do the job for the amount an employer can pay an illegal.  You said it much better than I.

[dondub]

dondub agreed with my post?

That can happen when you direct your massive intelligence towards reasonability instead of hyperbolic extremism.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 11:00:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's all true, dj.  My facts don't come from some study that isn't even close to accurate. It's comes from real-life experience.

wait- so are you denying MY real life experiences, here?

how about this- we stick to the facts, and leave our anecdotal experiences out of it?

i like you, but i don't care one stitch about "your facts", only "the facts".

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 11:00:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Just for example....read a "study" awhile ago that said under the Obama administration....some huge number of illegals had been deported - more than any in history. What they study failed to mention was that a whole bunch of these people were deported 3, 4, 5 times each.  They count them 3, 4, 5 times.  These studies are shit. 

the study didn't "fail to mention" it.  it is how deportations are counted.  it is how they have ALWAYS BEEN counted.  so, a more truthful statement is that the number of "deportations" does't mean the same thing as "number of deported individuals", just as "the number of speeding tickets issued" doesn't equal "the number of speeders".

not knowing what the data means doesn't make the studies shit.  it just means you need to dig deeper.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I like you, too. Believe what you will. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying that all this bleeding heart "political crimes" excuse is just not true for the vast majority of the people who are here illegally.  I actually ask the people who are here illegally why they came here illegally. I guess some expert knows them better than they know themselves. It's possible, I suppose. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Aug 20, 2015 11:22:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 20, 2015 11:00:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Just for example....read a "study" awhile ago that said under the Obama administration....some huge number of illegals had been deported - more than any in history. What they study failed to mention was that a whole bunch of these people were deported 3, 4, 5 times each.  They count them 3, 4, 5 times.  These studies are shit. 

the study didn't "fail to mention" it.  it is how deportations are counted.  it is how they have ALWAYS BEEN counted.  so, a more truthful statement is that the number of "deportations" does't mean the same thing as "number of deported individuals", just as "the number of speeding tickets issued" doesn't equal "the number of speeders".

not knowing what the data means doesn't make the studies shit.  it just means you need to dig deeper.

The study I read "failed to mention it". It didn't say one word about it.  I'm sorry, but even if it did? It inflated numbers (even with a caveat) to look better than it actually was. Why not state number of deported individuals instead? Because it doesn't look as good. That's why.

Shit.  Plain and simple.  No less wrong than any other study like it....but still shit.

ETA:  Not to mention how embarrassing it would be to admit that we deport the same guy 5 times and we STILL can't keep him out.

[zibazinski]

Shoot him. That'd work. 

[midjd]

Aug 20, 2015 11:22:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 20, 2015 11:00:04 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Just for example....read a "study" awhile ago that said under the Obama administration....some huge number of illegals had been deported - more than any in history. What they study failed to mention was that a whole bunch of these people were deported 3, 4, 5 times each.  They count them 3, 4, 5 times.  These studies are shit. 

the study didn't "fail to mention" it.  it is how deportations are counted.  it is how they have ALWAYS BEEN counted.  so, a more truthful statement is that the number of "deportations" does't mean the same thing as "number of deported individuals", just as "the number of speeding tickets issued" doesn't equal "the number of speeders".

not knowing what the data means doesn't make the studies shit.  it just means you need to dig deeper.

I agree. Just like the unemployment rate doesn't equal the total number of unemployed people... just those who are seeking work, not disabled, etc. 

As long as the parameters aren't changed by each administration, it's still an apples-to-apples comparison. Someone may rather compare oranges than apples, but it doesn't mean the apple study isn't valid. 

The problem, IMO isn't that Americans won't do the jobs, it is that corporations have gotten comfortable with the fact they have a vast pool of indentured labor and nobody will lift a finger to stop them. And Paul is right (did I just say that?) it isn't just Mexicans. We have a lot of illegal Sudanese immigrants here working the same jobs.

If the government had some balls and politicians weren't in corporate pockets we might see some change. We have to make it hurt more to hire illegals than we do to hire them. Then it will stop.

I agree again. 

There seem to be more people who want to jail the immigrants themselves than the business owners who bring them here. With the inherent imbalance of political and economic power in that situation, I'd think punishing the business owner (REALLY punishing them) would be a lot more effective at stemming the problem than deporting the same people multiple times...

I don't begrudge someone trying to escape poverty/abuse/whatever in their home country nearly as much as someone who wants to import cheap labor so s/he can squeeze out a few extra $M in their bonus this year. IMO it's no different than human trafficking.

[billisonboard]

Aug 20, 2015 10:45:56 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

... People come here because of the easy money from employers who can't get Americans to do their jobs. ...

"Easy money"? How many of them are working jobs that allow them to spend time posting on YMAM and how many are bent over harvesting crops in 100+ degree weather?

[mroped]

My disagreement with the police officer in my case chiver was the icing on the cake!
He was the one that for many years(4) made me spend nights in the police arrest just so he could have a chance to give me a beating. So when I had enough, I decided that is not worth returning to that and clocked him on the way out. I was nice enough to call an ambulance for him before disappearing curtesy which he did not afford me in at least 10 occasions.

I had no economical reasons whatsoever. The money that I was making as a sailor put me about 10 times above the national average income in Romania.
Speaking up against the new "democratic regime" didn't help matters either. So it was a rather complex issue not just "well, I'm gonna take off!"

Aplying to the American and Canadian Embassies for permanent residency it didn't work since I couldn't even get an appointment at the time. 
Bribery was the order of things. Things could be done just that way and I refused to do that so when the chance arose I just jumped ship

[Green Eyed Lady]

I can't tell you that, bills. I can only speak for the ones I work with.   You are right, tho.  I shouldn't have said "easy" because I know the jobs they perform aren't ones I would like to have to do.   What I meant was it was easy to get a job here unlike where they came from.  There jobs are much more demanding than mine.  However, when I start working for money under the table that I do not pay taxes on and that I send back to another country, while at the same time getting all my needs met from assistance after telling the administrator of same that I don't work - we can compare the two.

And please.  I worked in the fields for several years in 100+ weather.  Granted, I'm not 60 years old, but I did it.  Ten hours a day, 6-7 days a week.  That's how you earned spending money for school clothes when your parents couldn't hand it out like candy.  It wasn't fun, but it didn't kill me.  Yes, yes...I know.  It was only for the summer - not my whole life.  Thing is, there weren't fields to work in in the winter.  Not all of us were so pampered that a little heat made us martyrs.  Farmers do this day in and day out.  Road construction workers, regular home construction workers - lots of people work outside in the heat every day.  This is no huge deal and it's time to stop pretending it is.

And I walked back and forth to school through a foot of snow, up hill....both ways.

[zibazinski]

I'm all for jailing the employers of illegals. As far as who does the work? That's what welfare recipients and criminals are for. Or you pay decent salaries and get decent help. Not like Tyson chicken is cheap.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 11:27:02 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

I like you, too. Believe what you will.

i believe the facts.  i have no skin in this game.  i don't support illegal labor.  at all.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just saying that all this bleeding heart "political crimes" excuse is just not true for the vast majority of the people who are here illegally.  I actually ask the people who are here illegally why they came here illegally. I guess some expert knows them better than they know themselves. It's possible, I suppose. 

that was a fairly minor point, and i think i mistook you any way.  never mind.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 11:29:17 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Aug 20, 2015 11:22:29 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

the study didn't "fail to mention" it.  it is how deportations are counted.  it is how they have ALWAYS BEEN counted.  so, a more truthful statement is that the number of "deportations" does't mean the same thing as "number of deported individuals", just as "the number of speeding tickets issued" doesn't equal "the number of speeders".

not knowing what the data means doesn't make the studies shit.  it just means you need to dig deeper.

The study I read "failed to mention it". It didn't say one word about it.  I'm sorry, but even if it did? It inflated numbers (even with a caveat) to look better than it actually was. Why not state number of deported individuals instead? Because it doesn't look as good. That's why.

Shit.  Plain and simple.  No less wrong than any other study like it....but still shit.

ETA:  Not to mention how embarrassing it would be to admit that we deport the same guy 5 times and we STILL can't keep him out.

it doesn't say anything because it is HOW THE DATA IS REPORTED.  but it has nothing to do with "making the data look better".  they are not double and triple counting for that reason- they are doing it because they have always done it.  and they are doing more of it now, which is, actually, an improvement. 

the single counting data is also out there.  it uses a different method.

[Green Eyed Lady]

I'm not saying that their lives are great here. I'm not saying that working like a dog all day or living on a pittance of assistance is such a wonderful way to live.  I'm not saying they are bad people at all.  All I'm saying is we need to stop with the excuses and the rationalizations. Stop with the "fleeing for political reasons", or "they'll be killed if we send them back" kind of stuff (yes...I know that is true is a minute number of cases) and find an answer to what I don't think anybody in their right mind could not see is a problem.

Actually, I would be fine with giving amnesty to those who are already here as long as we make an actual effort to stop the flow. I would be fine with saying that amnesty wouldn't be offered again at any other time. Once and once only. I would be fine with that as long as we make a real effort to stop this drowning tide and quit making excuses.  There are, after all, reasons we made illegal immigration illegal. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

Aug 20, 2015 12:15:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Aug 20, 2015 11:29:17 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

The study I read "failed to mention it". It didn't say one word about it.  I'm sorry, but even if it did? It inflated numbers (even with a caveat) to look better than it actually was. Why not state number of deported individuals instead? Because it doesn't look as good. That's why.

Shit.  Plain and simple.  No less wrong than any other study like it....but still shit.

ETA:  Not to mention how embarrassing it would be to admit that we deport the same guy 5 times and we STILL can't keep him out.

it doesn't say anything because it is HOW THE DATA IS REPORTED.  but it has nothing to do with "making the data look better".  they are not double and triple counting for that reason- they are doing it because they have always done it.  and they are doing more of it now, which is, actually, an improvement. 

the single counting data is also out there.  it uses a different method.

I understand what you are saying.  Just because they have "always done it" doesn't make it right and still makes it shit - just shit from the beginning and not new shit.  It's not honest.  It's done in the hopes that people less intelligent or paying less attention than you and I will look at it and say, "Boy!!  Aren't they doing a great job!  400,000 deportations!"   It's a hope that most people won't look at that and see only 100,000 actual deportations of the same people 4 times. (Those figures were pulled out of my posterior because I can't access the study at work.)  I'm sure there are other studies out there that count honestly.  My reason for pointing out this particular study was because you posted some link disputing what I know to be true from real-life experience (or I assume it did - I didn't read it because it wont' come up here).  My point was that just because some study can be found to validate what we believe doesn't make that study accurate.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Aug 20, 2015 10:59:44 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

People come here because of the easy money from employers who can't get Americans to do their jobs.

Correction, the employers don't want to pay Americans to do the job so they go across the boarder and hire people to come up here.  Upon arrival they forge documents for the inspectors.  When they get busted they lay low for a few days and then go back down to get the next batch.

DH said there is a line EVERY DAY of people trying to get jobs at his old plant.  None of them get hired b/c Tyson is trucking illegals up here on a regular basis.

DH said what it amounts to is you have an indentured servant.  He saw a lot of violations that if they understood their rights would have been reported to the DOL.  However when you know the company knows you're an illegal what are you going to do about it?

I do not believe it makes me a lazy American to exercise my rights as an employee and expect my employer to do the same.

The problem, IMO isn't that Americans won't do the jobs, it is that corporations have gotten comfortable with the fact they have a vast pool of indentured labor and nobody will lift a finger to stop them.  And  Paul is right (did I just say that?)  it isn't just Mexicans.  We have a lot of illegal Sudanese immigrants here working the same jobs.

If the government had some balls and politicians weren't in corporate pockets we might see some change.  We have to make it hurt more to hire illegals than we do to hire them.  Then it will stop.

Once Tyson and their ilk can't go down to Mexico and lure people up here then for the most part they'll stop coming since there is no more carrot being dangled in front of them.

.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 12:27:27 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Aug 20, 2015 12:15:10 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it doesn't say anything because it is HOW THE DATA IS REPORTED.  but it has nothing to do with "making the data look better".  they are not double and triple counting for that reason- they are doing it because they have always done it.  and they are doing more of it now, which is, actually, an improvement. 

the single counting data is also out there.  it uses a different method.

I understand what you are saying.  Just because they have "always done it" doesn't make it right and still makes it shit - just shit from the beginning and not new shit.  It's not honest. 

my point is that the dishonesty is not designed for any purpose.  it is just how the data is reported.

but here is my second point: if Obama is "deporting" 3x as many as Bush, that is NOT meaningless.  it means that there is 3x as much "shit" happening under Obama as under Bush (note: i am not using real numbers here, i am just making the argument).

same thing for how UE is reported.  just because the numbers are "shit" doesn't mean they are not useful.  they are.  because you can use them to compare the CURRENT shit to the shit of 10 or 20 years ago.

but sure, don't think of them as people.  fine by me, since they are not.  but the numbers, no matter how shitty, DO SAY SOMETHING.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 12:27:27 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

It's done in the hopes that people less intelligent or paying less attention than you and I will look at it and say, "Boy!!  Aren't they doing a great job!  400,000 deportations!"   It's a hope that most people won't look at that and see only 100,000 actual deportations of the same people 4 times. (Those figures were pulled out of my posterior because I can't access the study at work.) 

my guess is that people probably don't have any sense of what EITHER number means, so who really cares?

and those that care about the ACTUAL NUMBERS are going to find out, right?

that is why we need people like you, GEL, to point out that the numbers are inflated because deportees are not actually tracked.
that is why we need people like ME to point out that the average CEO pay is not really 400x that of the average worker.
that is why we need people like Paul to point out that the number of people that are actually unemployed is not reflected in the standard UE report.

economists, immigration wonks, and capitalists dig down and find the truth of these numbers for their own comfort, but they also use them to develop opinions on the direction things are going- which has GENERALLY BEEN GOOD over the last half decade or so.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 12:27:27 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

My reason for pointing out this particular study was because you posted some link disputing what I know to be true from real-life experience (or I assume it did - I didn't read it because it wont' come up here).  My point was that just because some study can be found to validate what we believe doesn't make that study accurate.

i never claimed that the study was accurate.  i just bristled at the idea that any study, no matter how flawed, is useless.  it just requires more careful attention to ascertain what it actually means.

[Value Buy]

Aug 20, 2015 11:42:59 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

and we can afford a LOT in this, the wealthiest nation on earth, IF WE MAKE IT A PRIORITY.

We could, but why should it be our priority? The countries they're leaving haven't made their own citizens a priority, and they have a much more compelling responsibility to do so. There are literally dozens of things I'd rather see us prioritize over providing for foreign citizens.

We could get our debt under control as a country. Make college affordable for our own citizens instead of forcing our kids into debt at 18. Do something about our poverty problem. I could go on for pages. I'd rank providing more opportunity for Mexican citizens with US tax dollars way fucking low on my list of where our priorities should be.

And how is that working out for California?
I know dj says it is great,but 2 million illegals cannot be a good thing.

[djAdvocate]

Aug 20, 2015 16:59:53 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Aug 20, 2015 11:42:59 GMT -5 Sum Dum Gai said:

We could, but why should it be our priority? The countries they're leaving haven't made their own citizens a priority, and they have a much more compelling responsibility to do so. There are literally dozens of things I'd rather see us prioritize over providing for foreign citizens.

We could get our debt under control as a country. Make college affordable for our own citizens instead of forcing our kids into debt at 18. Do something about our poverty problem. I could go on for pages. I'd rank providing more opportunity for Mexican citizens with US tax dollars way fucking low on my list of where our priorities should be.

And how is that working out for California?
I know dj says it is great,but 2 million illegals cannot be a good thing.

please stop putting words in my mouth.  i never said it was working "great".

let me be clear about this AGAIN: i am opposed to illegal immigration.  however, i am really tired of people doing the following two things:

1) exaggerating the cost of the problem.  it is bad enough without doing that, so just do it right, or look like a bigot.  your choice.
2) demonizing those who come here looking for work.  they are not rapists, for the most part.  they are people who are really poor and looking for something better, and willing to risk everything to get it.  and yeah, i think that is kinda brave and praiseworthy, even though i disagree with it.

so, please- stop telling me what i think.  i just said what i think.  use that.

it is NOT GREAT.  it is ILLEGAL.  but the way to stop it is by cutting off the economic benefit, not by building walls.

[jkapp]

Aug 18, 2015 17:00:10 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Aug 18, 2015 16:55:55 GMT -5 Shooby said:

They are "illegal". AKA breaking the law. And, we have a crap economy so why do we want to depress the wages of Americans?

I think it is a proven fact that immigration raises the living standards of the rest of us.  To be willing to leave your home country behind takes courage and initiative.  Those are some things we need more of in America.

OKay then...prove it.

To me, it sounds like a load of horse shit...