Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 13, 2015 14:47:57 GMT -5
I'm going to be as nice as I can...holy shit, your mom thought she was prettier than you and competed with you and you think that puts you in the same category of "shitty fucking childhood" that dark had? Can you for once not make a thread about you?? I don't think you tried that hard This is Tina, yes she did.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 13, 2015 14:49:26 GMT -5
I'm going to be as nice as I can...holy shit, your mom thought she was prettier than you and competed with you and you think that puts you in the same category of "shitty fucking childhood" that dark had? Can you for once not make a thread about you?? I don't think you tried that hard Say what? That WAS me being nice!lol
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2015 14:52:31 GMT -5
Because I don't post details doesn't mean it wasn't horrible. I only posted to commiserate with Dark how those that don't live it don't get it. My past experiences are not for public fodder especially with the way some posters get into it. Dark has chosen to share. I have chosen not to.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 13, 2015 14:53:07 GMT -5
Amen. If my Aunts or other family members want to live in la la land and pretend my mom wasn't evil, that's fine. They didn't live my life and they could look the other way and did-many times. But trying to con me, a grown ass adult into their fantasy goes too far. Stop trying to sugarcoat her and your own failings as a member of the family. I'm going to be as nice as I can...holy shit, your mom thought she was prettier than you and competed with you and you think that puts you in the same category of "shitty fucking childhood" that dark had? Can you for once not make a thread about you??Nope.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 13, 2015 15:15:15 GMT -5
Awesome! Karma - sometimes it's such a lovely thing. I think I might have jumped in my car and tried to run him down as he scurried away, but then I think you're nicer than me.....
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 16:31:08 GMT -5
I did look at them, and the research actually define several kinds of forgiveness, the deepest one being emotional forgiveness. If anything, it's stronger than the standard I'm advocating here. "Just letting go of the hurt and anger and moving on with your life" seem like a paraphrasing of my "letting go of resentment". The indications of having let go of resentment are what I listed in Reply #77. Specifically, if thinking about the individual enrages you, if they inspire you to threaten physical harm (excepting the case of reasonable self-preservation), if you slander them (e.g. "I hope that butthole dies in a fire."), if your trust is diminished in people generally, if you fantasize about running them down with your car, if you make it very clear to strangers on a message board that you hold them in contempt, you haven't let go of resentment, ergo you haven't emotionally forgiven the individual, ergo you're not a beneficiary of the benefits of forgiveness. I can't comment on whether your assessment of the threat he posed was reasonable, but assuming it was, we've satisfied both predicates of "if Dark reasonably believed the man contacting his family members was life or morally threatening, and if he reasonably believed that the threat was the only way to prevent his step-father from contacting them" in Reply #140. Hence, "he did what was necessary to protect his loved ones and I countenance the threat". Only you know why you threatened him. Regardless, thanks for clarifying the timeline. I'd been under the impression that your last meeting with him in person had been fairly recent. And if you've been around, you'll know that some (O'Hare immediately comes to mind, although it's by no means the worst) are chaotic, labyrinthine, delay-prone disasters with crippling design flaws, and others, like the Munich airport, are efficient, smooth-flowing, easily accessible, and generally well-designed. There is indeed a 'right' way to design an airport. There is a 'right' way to design a traffic intersection, even though intersecting a few roads and sticking up a stop sign meets the bare minimum requirements. There is a 'right' way to wire a modern house. I am told that there is a 'right' way to pet a cat, although that one I'm not sure of. I stand by the analogy.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 13, 2015 17:09:49 GMT -5
So you're saying, if a guy screws me over twenty years ago, and then my best friend tells me her aunt just married this guy last weekend, I would be 'slandering' the guy by telling my friend the guy is evil and her aunt needs to be careful? I should just wish them the best of luck, if I've truly emotionally forgiven the guy?
Or if the guy gets swindled in a real estate deal and loses all his money, I'm not a 'beneficiary of the benefits of forgiveness' if I laugh my ass off?
I don't even know how to respond to 'if your trust is diminished in people generally' - is there an adult human being alive who trusts all humans completely? Like if someone calls me up and offers me some Florida swamp land, I haven't truly forgiven someone in my life if I hang up on him?
You have some lovely religious talk. In theory, it sounds nice. Perhaps people with a religious bent would like to go on a religious retreat, pray and fast and read some scripture until they get to the point they can regain all their trust in human beings again, but for most of us, not laying in bed at night thinking bad thoughts is all we need to make us happy.
Well, I require some nice craft beer. And a little chocolate. Then I'm good.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 13, 2015 17:22:13 GMT -5
It is a fact there are many damaged people in the world. No amount of secular or religious counseling will ever make some of these folks whole again.
Think of a broken vase. You can glue the pieces back together and it will be back to its original form. But the cracks in the vase will always be visible and a few grains of molding clay will always be missing.
Sometimes that is the best anyone can do.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 17:38:56 GMT -5
So you're saying, if a guy screws me over twenty years ago, and then my best friend tells me her aunt just married this guy last weekend, I would be 'slandering' the guy by telling my friend the guy is evil and her aunt needs to be careful? I should just wish them the best of luck, if I've truly emotionally forgiven the guy? Or if the guy gets swindled in a real estate deal and loses all his money, I'm not a 'beneficiary of the benefits of forgiveness' if I laugh my ass off? I don't even know how to respond to 'if your trust is diminished in people generally' - is there an adult human being alive who trusts all humans completely? Like if someone calls me up and offers me some Florida swamp land, I haven't truly forgiven someone in my life if I hang up on him? You have some lovely religious talk. In theory, it sounds nice. Perhaps people with a religious bent would like to go on a religious retreat, pray and fast and read some scripture until they get to the point they can regain all their trust in human beings again, but for most of us, not laying in bed at night thinking bad thoughts is all we need to make us happy. Well, I require some nice craft beer. And a little chocolate. Then I'm good. You're arguing with a straw man. I think you're perfectly aware of that, so I'm not even going to bother anymore. Take the advice or leave it, as written, complete with predicates. Don't extrapolate. Don't read between the lines. If you leave the advice, fine. No skin off my nose. Enjoy your beer and chocolate.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 19:54:06 GMT -5
It is a fact there are many damaged people in the world. No amount of secular or religious counseling will ever make some of these folks whole again. Think of a broken vase. You can glue the pieces back together and it will be back to its original form. But the cracks in the vase will always be visible and a few grains of molding clay will always be missing. Sometimes that is the best anyone can do. I can't speak for anyone else's journey but I have learned a few little things during mine. Nothing can change who and what my parents were or my life experience with them. I have scars and I have memories and I have nightmares, more nights than not. And I am the only person responsible for each day of my life going forward. No amount of would-a, could-a, should-a will work for me, only what I can do about this day and maybe tomorrow. No, I can't forget but I can choose to let go of the baggage that burdens me on my path. I deal each and every day with the cracks in my vase as Tennesseer so eloquently says but I do believe I have the power to make that vessel hold water, the water of my life and water I can offer to others. The road ain't easy but I think it's worth the blisters.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 14, 2015 7:55:38 GMT -5
So you're saying, if a guy screws me over twenty years ago, and then my best friend tells me her aunt just married this guy last weekend, I would be 'slandering' the guy by telling my friend the guy is evil and her aunt needs to be careful? I should just wish them the best of luck, if I've truly emotionally forgiven the guy? Or if the guy gets swindled in a real estate deal and loses all his money, I'm not a 'beneficiary of the benefits of forgiveness' if I laugh my ass off? I don't even know how to respond to 'if your trust is diminished in people generally' - is there an adult human being alive who trusts all humans completely? Like if someone calls me up and offers me some Florida swamp land, I haven't truly forgiven someone in my life if I hang up on him? You have some lovely religious talk. In theory, it sounds nice. Perhaps people with a religious bent would like to go on a religious retreat, pray and fast and read some scripture until they get to the point they can regain all their trust in human beings again, but for most of us, not laying in bed at night thinking bad thoughts is all we need to make us happy. Well, I require some nice craft beer. And a little chocolate. Then I'm good. You're arguing with a straw man. I think you're perfectly aware of that, so I'm not even going to bother anymore. Take the advice or leave it, as written, complete with predicates. Don't extrapolate. Don't read between the lines. If you leave the advice, fine. No skin off my nose. Enjoy your beer and chocolate. Here's what has bothered me about your argument. I'm a follower of a religion, but as I've gotten older, I've moved away from organized religion, because they all have certain rules that they insist must be followed in order to do things the 'right' way. Where I live, there is a church that says women can't cut their hair or wear pants. I had a friend that went to a church in the 70's that kicked her out of their choir because her husband left her - they didn't allow divorced women in their choir. I volunteered to tutor English as a second language and the man they assigned me to wouldn't talk to me because I was a woman who was not his wife, and in his religion, it was a sin to talk to me. Now you're telling us that unless a person does x,y and z and gets to a certain frame of mind, they are not 'doing' forgiveness right, and they will never ever be happy. Life is not a paint by number activity where you have to color in the lines with exactly the right colors in order to achieve the only accepted, 'good' result. There are other paths people can take to reach the peace of mind you talk about. It is not helpful to the person experiencing the enormous task of letting go of a painful past to have you lecture them on the only way to do it 'right.' Insisting they must follow set guidelines or fail will only push people like me further away from organized religion.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2015 10:49:05 GMT -5
What can I say?
We live in a universe of structured laws and relationships. Jump off a cliff and you'll fall to your death. Eat too much and you'll get fat. Persist in eating too much and you'll negatively impact your health. Let your mind languish after retirement and it will atrophy. Abuse your children and you'll inflict lasting psychological harm on them.
Forgiveness is no different. It has observable, quantifiable effects on the human psyche. "Unforgiveness", which is what the research calls unforgiving attitudes, has observable, quantifiable effects on the human psyche. When scripture talks about forgiveness, it presents it as a moral requirement without elaborating on its psychological effects. Hence while you may find it expedient to consider my arguments religious in nature (thus fit for you to ignore), the fact remains that the arc of Reply #77 is not a moral argument.
Nowhere have I condemned unforgiveness as immoral. I've emphasized that forgiveness is selfless, which I doubt anyone will dispute. I've stressed that we ought to forgive our enemies, but founded my argument on the worldly impacts of forgiveness in light of the board's general disdain for religion. This includes looking at the research, looking at case studies, looking at my own experiences, looking at the geopolitical consequences of unforgiving attitudes. It's no different from observing the effects of eating too much versus not eating too much.
"Right" is your term, which I've accepted to avoid quibbling over definitions. The arc of Reply #77 is not a 'right' or 'wrong' argument. It's a "for these actions, these are the consequences; given the clearly beneficial nature of the consequences, let us take these actions" argument. Maintaining a healthy weight promotes good health; given our desire for good health, let us maintain a healthy weight. This doesn't mean it's categorically impossible for obese individuals to be happy, but they're measurably disadvantaged when it comes to being healthy.
FWIW, I do believe forgiveness is a moral requirement (for reasons going well beyond its measurable impact). I haven't uttered a word of that deeper argument in this thread. I've refrained for the sake of the readership. Hence while I appreciate your recognition of the fact that a deeper argument exists, I ask that you please respect the distinction. It's very tempting to label everything as religious claptrap and throw it into the fire, but I humbly submit that you'd be doing us both a disservice by indulging.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 11:01:44 GMT -5
I actually think forgiveness has very selfish elements to it, if not a completely selfish act. I don't forgive stepmother #1 because of the impact it would have on her life. I have no contact with her. Forgiving her has no impact on her life. I forgive because it does ME no good to hold on to resentment and anger.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 14, 2015 11:57:22 GMT -5
I actually think forgiveness has very selfish elements to it, if not a completely selfish act. I don't forgive stepmother #1 because of the impact it would have on her life. I have no contact with her. Forgiving her has no impact on her life. I forgive because it does ME no good to hold on to resentment and anger. selfish ( adj.) - Concerned chiefly or only with oneself Hence not every action that benefits the self is selfish. Giving a gift isn't selfish simply because the giver experiences the benefits of giving. Other definitions include "Having regard for oneself above others’ well-being.", "Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others." It seems to me that the attitude "I'm forgiving her for my sake, not hers." carries with it an implicit "...because she can go rot as far as I'm concerned." Hence there's lingering resentment, hence no genuine forgiveness, aspiring more to apathy. I'd argue that forgiveness requires a principally selfless motivation to prevail over our natural desire for justice, vengeance, etc. Nobody has claimed that's a trivial hurdle to overcome, least of all myself. ETA: If you can tolerate hypotheticals, a reasonable litmus test would be: hypothetically, if you could somehow guarantee right this instant that your stepmother had repented of her wrongs and wouldn't repeat them in future, would you afford her all the love, courtesy, and basic respect of any other human being, or would you instead hold back certain things (for example, by glorying in her misfortune). If your answer is "the former", then it's reasonable to conclude you've forgiven her, and I believe this to be a selfless act.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 12:08:10 GMT -5
I believe people do and should forgive for themselves. I believe it is a selfish act. I was disputing your claim that everyone thinks it is a selfless act.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 12:10:49 GMT -5
Forgive -
stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
For the most part, I do that for me...
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swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2015 13:03:06 GMT -5
What can I say? We live in a universe of structured laws and relationships. Jump off a cliff and you'll fall to your death. Eat too much and you'll get fat. Persist in eating too much and you'll negatively impact your health. Let your mind languish after retirement and it will atrophy. Abuse your children and you'll inflict lasting psychological harm on them. Forgiveness is no different. It has observable, quantifiable effects on the human psyche. "Unforgiveness", which is what the research calls unforgiving attitudes, has observable, quantifiable effects on the human psyche. When scripture talks about forgiveness, it presents it as a moral requirement without elaborating on its psychological effects. Hence while you may find it expedient to consider my arguments religious in nature (thus fit for you to ignore), the fact remains that the arc of Reply #77 is not a moral argument. Nowhere have I condemned unforgiveness as immoral. I've emphasized that forgiveness is selfless, which I doubt anyone will dispute. I've stressed that we ought to forgive our enemies, but founded my argument on the worldly impacts of forgiveness in light of the board's general disdain for religion. This includes looking at the research, looking at case studies, looking at my own experiences, looking at the geopolitical consequences of unforgiving attitudes. It's no different from observing the effects of eating too much versus not eating too much. "Right" is your term, which I've accepted to avoid quibbling over definitions. The arc of Reply #77 is not a 'right' or 'wrong' argument. It's a "for these actions, these are the consequences; given the clearly beneficial nature of the consequences, let us take these actions" argument. Maintaining a healthy weight promotes good health; given our desire for good health, let us maintain a healthy weight. This doesn't mean it's categorically impossible for obese individuals to be happy, but they're measurably disadvantaged when it comes to being healthy. FWIW, I do believe forgiveness is a moral requirement (for reasons going well beyond its measurable impact). I haven't uttered a word of that deeper argument in this thread. I've refrained for the sake of the readership. Hence while I appreciate your recognition of the fact that a deeper argument exists, I ask that you please respect the distinction. It's very tempting to label everything as religious claptrap and throw it into the fire, but I humbly submit that you'd be doing us both a disservice by indulging. Interpersonal relationships aren't quite as black and white as you seem to think they are. People's emotions don't follow rules. Yes, there are general guidelines on how someone will probably act in a situation, but it's not a given.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 14, 2015 13:27:46 GMT -5
What can I say? We live in a universe of structured laws and relationships. Jump off a cliff and you'll fall to your death. Eat too much and you'll get fat. Persist in eating too much and you'll negatively impact your health. Let your mind languish after retirement and it will atrophy. Abuse your children and you'll inflict lasting psychological harm on them. Forgiveness is no different. It has observable, quantifiable effects on the human psyche. "Unforgiveness", which is what the research calls unforgiving attitudes, has observable, quantifiable effects on the human psyche. When scripture talks about forgiveness, it presents it as a moral requirement without elaborating on its psychological effects. Hence while you may find it expedient to consider my arguments religious in nature (thus fit for you to ignore), the fact remains that the arc of Reply #77 is not a moral argument. Nowhere have I condemned unforgiveness as immoral. I've emphasized that forgiveness is selfless, which I doubt anyone will dispute. I've stressed that we ought to forgive our enemies, but founded my argument on the worldly impacts of forgiveness in light of the board's general disdain for religion. This includes looking at the research, looking at case studies, looking at my own experiences, looking at the geopolitical consequences of unforgiving attitudes. It's no different from observing the effects of eating too much versus not eating too much. "Right" is your term, which I've accepted to avoid quibbling over definitions. The arc of Reply #77 is not a 'right' or 'wrong' argument. It's a "for these actions, these are the consequences; given the clearly beneficial nature of the consequences, let us take these actions" argument. Maintaining a healthy weight promotes good health; given our desire for good health, let us maintain a healthy weight. This doesn't mean it's categorically impossible for obese individuals to be happy, but they're measurably disadvantaged when it comes to being healthy. FWIW, I do believe forgiveness is a moral requirement (for reasons going well beyond its measurable impact). I haven't uttered a word of that deeper argument in this thread. I've refrained for the sake of the readership. Hence while I appreciate your recognition of the fact that a deeper argument exists, I ask that you please respect the distinction. It's very tempting to label everything as religious claptrap and throw it into the fire, but I humbly submit that you'd be doing us both a disservice by indulging. Interpersonal relationships aren't quite as black and white as you seem to think they are. People's emotions don't follow rules. Yes, there are general guidelines on how someone will probably act in a situation, but it's not a given. I'm now convinced that he is Sheldon Cooper, no question.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 14, 2015 13:35:46 GMT -5
I don't sit and stew over the "wrongs" I have been done, but my future relationships with the people who have done them is definitely impacted. I will never have close, loving relationships with some people, because I'm not stupid enough to make myself vulnerable. Others I just have distaste for, so I avoid engaging with them. There is no space in my life for certain people now, where there might have been space, before. They have gone from being focuses for rage to complete nonentities. They are, indeed, no different from the other billions of people on Earth, other than the fact they have been booted to the end of the queue (that includes all of those people) of people to help if I have the opportunity.
Letting go of the anger? TOTALLY for me. Not for them, for me. Being angry and resentful feels bad. They never needed to know how angry I was and they never need to know that I'm not angry anymore.
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swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
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Post by swamp on Aug 14, 2015 13:51:48 GMT -5
I don't sit and stew over the "wrongs" I have been done, but my future relationships with the people who have done them is definitely impacted. I will never have close, loving relationships with some people, because I'm not stupid enough to make myself vulnerable. Others I just have distaste for, so I avoid engaging with them. There is no space in my life for certain people now, where there might have been space, before. They have gone from being focuses for rage to complete nonentities. They are, indeed, no different from the other billions of people on Earth, other than the fact they have been booted to the end of the queue (that includes all of those people) of people to help if I have the opportunity. Letting go of the anger? TOTALLY for me. Not for them, for me. Being angry and resentful feels bad. They never needed to know how angry I was and they never need to know that I'm not angry anymore.
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