taz157
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Post by taz157 on Aug 10, 2015 21:07:39 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 10, 2015 21:33:26 GMT -5
I'm honestly not sure I ever can. I watched him beat and terrorize my mother. I heard him rape her. I sat by her bedside in the hospital after he crushed half her face. On multiple occasions we had to throw some clothes in backpacks and go sleep somewhere else because he threatened to come take my half brothers (his children). We slept in my mom's classroom once, locked inside the school building, while he vandalized her car, piled all of our stuff up in the living room at the house smashed the front window and ran the garden hose in through it and left it on while we were gone. I don't have many visible physical scars from provoking him so he would beat me instead of my younger brother, but the emotional ones will always be there. I don't imagine there's really anything he can say to excuse the behavior that ruined my childhood. The absolute last thing I want to hear coming out of his mouth is him blaming it on the drugs. I honestly don't think I'd be able to sit through it without trying to beat the shit out of him. The last time I talked to him in person I told him that if he ever contacted my mom or my brothers again I'd kill him and his body in the desert somewhere. I told him they were my brothers, not his sons, and as far as he was concerned they no longer exist. He did contact them several years later once they were adults, and I didn't follow through on the threat, although I definitely meant it at the time I said it, so I guess that's some progress. That might be about the extent of the progress I ever make when it comes to him. Just thinking about him while typing this I can feel my blood pressure rising. The two of us in the same room would not end well. Wow. It seems wise to sever contact with him then, given the sheer magnitude of the rift he created. Although I can't condone the threats. If at any point you become convinced that he's no longer a threat and genuinely contrite, bear in mind that the damage has already been done. It's a sunk cost. It doesn't factor into the decision on whether reconciling with him is a good decision for either you or him going forward. I gather that at this point you do still consider him a threat, a recidivist, and insincere in his apologies, in which case you're wise to keep your distance.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 10, 2015 21:37:48 GMT -5
There are some people who aren't worth forgiving. My Grandma felt that I should forgive my mom. Because, after all, she was my mom. Um, not good enough reason. I did get the chance to tell her how I felt enough for my peace of mind before she died. She's missed by no one-ever.
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msventoux
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Post by msventoux on Aug 10, 2015 22:16:35 GMT -5
There are some people who aren't worth forgiving. My Grandma felt that I should forgive my mom. Because, after all, she was my mom. Um, not good enough reason. I did get the chance to tell her how I felt enough for my peace of mind before she died. She's missed by no one-ever. My father is in the hospital now and supposedly might not pull through. I considered contacting him. Not because I want to ever see him again, but because society seems to think you owe something to a family member even when you had no choice being born into that family and they treated you like crap your entire life. I decided if I was that concerned about following those rules I wouldn't have cut off contact in the first place, so I'm not contacting him on his possible death bed. Nor is anyone else in the family at this point. A few months after my mom died everyone in the family independently came to the same decision. We're all still talking to each other, but no one is in contact with him.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 11, 2015 2:36:23 GMT -5
Whether he turned over a new leaf or not, he'll never be able to repair the damage he caused to our family. If he sincerely wants to get clean, good for him. He can do so without rehashing the shit he put me through. Or working through it on his own, without forcing me to relive it with him for his own catharsis. I don't owe him a god damn thing, and I'm not going to put myself through that shit to relieve his guilt. He can choke on it, and if that leads him to dying with a needle in his arm that's his problem. He made that particular bed for himself. If he ever contacted me just to have contact with me that would be one thing, but he only does so because he's working the steps of the program. He contacts me because his sponsor tells him to make amends for his own absolution, healing, peace of mind, whatever. It's inherently selfish. This last attempt looks like it was just because he's getting older and wanted to have some kind of contact with his numerous offspring, but honestly it's too late. It's been over twenty years. That ship sailed a long time ago. At this point he's a person from my past that I'd rather not remember. I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him at all. I don't think he really does either, which is why he only ever contacted me when the program told him to. You know what you can and can't handle. As I said to zibazinski, apologizing isn't about righting a wrong or mending past damage. A sincere apology is an expression of remorse, often an attempt to reconcile and salvage a relationship going forward, by a contrite individual. It's the only thing an individual can do if they aren't able to remedy the damage they've caused. Forgiveness is often viewed as a service to the individual being forgiven, which is true, but its primary impact is on the one forgiving. It requires them to acknowledge an enemy's reformed attitude and contrite heart, discount that which cannot be mended or repealed, and forsake any hatred of the enemy, none of which is easy to do. Most every religion, humanist philosophy, and scientific study agree that forgiveness has the greatest positive impact on the forgiver, which is why you might not want to rule it out entirely. It's like prizing out a bullet festering in an old wound. It hurts like hell to get it out, but it's going to fester until you do. Yours is an extreme case, but I have read where old WWI and WWII enemies, some of whom had shot each other's beloved comrades to death, bombed their homes and cities, wiped out entire families even, sat down at the same table, forgave past wrongs, and started anew. It is possible. It's an ideal worth striving for, both for your sake and his, is what I'm saying. Perhaps if he reaches out to you again, you might entertain taking baby steps towards reconciliation. Even corresponding by letter on a 6-month interval to keep each other apprised of developments in your lives. It's up to you. FWIW, I'm sorry you had to endure that abuse. I certainly don't mean to excuse what he did.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 7:16:57 GMT -5
Whether he turned over a new leaf or not, he'll never be able to repair the damage he caused to our family. If he sincerely wants to get clean, good for him. He can do so without rehashing the shit he put me through. Or working through it on his own, without forcing me to relive it with him for his own catharsis. I don't owe him a god damn thing, and I'm not going to put myself through that shit to relieve his guilt. He can choke on it, and if that leads him to dying with a needle in his arm that's his problem. He made that particular bed for himself. If he ever contacted me just to have contact with me that would be one thing, but he only does so because he's working the steps of the program. He contacts me because his sponsor tells him to make amends for his own absolution, healing, peace of mind, whatever. It's inherently selfish. This last attempt looks like it was just because he's getting older and wanted to have some kind of contact with his numerous offspring, but honestly it's too late. It's been over twenty years. That ship sailed a long time ago. At this point he's a person from my past that I'd rather not remember. I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him at all. I don't think he really does either, which is why he only ever contacted me when the program told him to. You know what you can and can't handle. As I said to zibazinski, apologizing isn't about righting a wrong or mending past damage. A sincere apology is an expression of remorse, often an attempt to reconcile and salvage a relationship going forward, by a contrite individual. It's the only thing an individual can do if they aren't able to remedy the damage they've caused. Forgiveness is often viewed as a service to the individual being forgiven, which is true, but its primary impact is on the one forgiving. It requires them to acknowledge an enemy's reformed attitude and contrite heart, discount that which cannot be mended or repealed, and forsake any hatred of the enemy, none of which is easy to do. Most every religion, humanist philosophy, and scientific study agree that forgiveness has the greatest positive impact on the forgiver, which is why you might not want to rule it out entirely. It's like prizing out a bullet festering in an old wound. It hurts like hell to get it out, but it's going to fester until you do. Yours is an extreme case, but I have read where old WWI and WWII enemies, some of whom had shot each other's beloved comrades to death, bombed their homes and cities, wiped out entire families even, sat down at the same table, forgave past wrongs, and started anew. It is possible. It's an ideal worth striving for, both for your sake and his, is what I'm saying. Perhaps if he reaches out to you again, you might entertain taking baby steps towards reconciliation. Even corresponding by letter on a 6-month interval to keep each other apprised of developments in your lives. It's up to you. FWIW, I'm sorry you had to endure that abuse. I certainly don't mean to excuse what he did. I don't think the enemy has to have a reformed attitude and contrite heart to forgive them. If that was the case, you're stuck with the anger all your life if they never change. Or if they die or move across the world, how would you know they've changed? I don't think forgiving is about the enemy at all, they don't even have to know you've let it go. I do agree that it has positive impact for the forgiver and it can be like prizing out a bullet festering in an old wound. I most definitely disagree that dark should correspond with and try to reconcile with his stepfather, unless of course, Dark decides that he wants to. You can forgive someone and still protect yourself by keeping your distance from them. That's why some people refuse to forgive people that have done horrible things to them, because they think fhat forgiving them means they're saying "it's ok what you did to me" and they think now they have to be nice to that person and interact with them........... it's easy to understand why that would be wayyyy too much for certain circumstances. And I don't even believe that's required to forgive someone. You can forgive your enemies without befriending them or giving them the opportunity to harm you again. Dark, I think it would be helpful to you if you tried to get where you can at least cruise in neutral when it comes to your stepfather. You're still very angry, understandably so, and you need to try to let some of that anger go, for YOU. It's not healthy for YOU to carry so much anger in your heart that just thinking about him makes you upset. That's still giving him power over you, becauase you still react so strongly. Take the power back. To me, it's just saying to yourself, yeah he's an asshole and he did all these terrible things to my family, but I'm going to leave that in the past and let it go. You don't have to try to like him or interact with him, you just need to let it go and let go of the ugliness you're harboring because of him. You're not doing it because he earned it or he "deserves" it, you're doing it because you deserve to be free from it. I'm still working on my cup of coffee, but I hope I still managed to explain my thoughts clearly. The bottom line is, that I encourage you to try to find a way to set yourself free from your stepfather and all the things he did. I know you're physically free of his presence, but emotionally, you're still tangled up with him because he still has the power to upset you. And again, I'm truly sorry that all those things happened to you and your family. I tried to seperate these posts since I started out quoting Virgil and ended up "talking" to Dark. But for some reason I can't copy and paste.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 11, 2015 7:28:15 GMT -5
Whether he turned over a new leaf or not, he'll never be able to repair the damage he caused to our family. If he sincerely wants to get clean, good for him. He can do so without rehashing the shit he put me through. Or working through it on his own, without forcing me to relive it with him for his own catharsis. I don't owe him a god damn thing, and I'm not going to put myself through that shit to relieve his guilt. He can choke on it, and if that leads him to dying with a needle in his arm that's his problem. He made that particular bed for himself. If he ever contacted me just to have contact with me that would be one thing, but he only does so because he's working the steps of the program. He contacts me because his sponsor tells him to make amends for his own absolution, healing, peace of mind, whatever. It's inherently selfish. This last attempt looks like it was just because he's getting older and wanted to have some kind of contact with his numerous offspring, but honestly it's too late. It's been over twenty years. That ship sailed a long time ago. At this point he's a person from my past that I'd rather not remember. I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him at all. I don't think he really does either, which is why he only ever contacted me when the program told him to. I don't believe you have to forgive someone to find peace. The happiest years of my life were basically when I had zero contact with her after my Dad died. I don't believe that just because someone brought you into this world, you OWE them. So they can be jerks and you have to suck it up. Not one person in my family told her to knock it off but they were sure all on me to get over it. F that. I tried to have a relationship once more and she still was the same old piece of shit she always was. I don't believe people are ever sincere when they apologize. They're either forced to by someone else or something is in it for them. Because I don't believe they were ever sorry for what they did in the first place because they can always spin it that the other person brought it on themselves or somehow deserved it. Maybe some people feel that forgiving heals. I don't.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 11, 2015 7:52:27 GMT -5
I have shovels and a Subaru Forester with all wheel drive and enough space in the back to haul around a lot of stuff. Should it be necessary. You can get past what a parent did without forgiving them. Some things, IMHO, are unforgivable, especially when the parent never really admits what they did was wrong, but simply wants to pretend things were not really that bad, just regular family stuff, so lets have a big family hug. I read once that the opposite of love isn't hate but indifference. If you get to the point you don't care one way or another what happens to the POS step dad, you're there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 7:59:38 GMT -5
Whether he turned over a new leaf or not, he'll never be able to repair the damage he caused to our family. If he sincerely wants to get clean, good for him. He can do so without rehashing the shit he put me through. Or working through it on his own, without forcing me to relive it with him for his own catharsis. I don't owe him a god damn thing, and I'm not going to put myself through that shit to relieve his guilt. He can choke on it, and if that leads him to dying with a needle in his arm that's his problem. He made that particular bed for himself. If he ever contacted me just to have contact with me that would be one thing, but he only does so because he's working the steps of the program. He contacts me because his sponsor tells him to make amends for his own absolution, healing, peace of mind, whatever. It's inherently selfish. This last attempt looks like it was just because he's getting older and wanted to have some kind of contact with his numerous offspring, but honestly it's too late. It's been over twenty years. That ship sailed a long time ago. At this point he's a person from my past that I'd rather not remember. I have no interest in any kind of relationship with him at all. I don't think he really does either, which is why he only ever contacted me when the program told him to. I don't believe you have to forgive someone to find peace. The happiest years of my life were basically when I had zero contact with her after my Dad died. I don't believe that just because someone brought you into this world, you OWE them. So they can be jerks and you have to suck it up. Not one person in my family told her to knock it off but they were sure all on me to get over it. F that. I tried to have a relationship once more and she still was the same old piece of shit she always was. I don't believe people are ever sincere when they apologize. They're either forced to by someone else or something is in it for them. Because I don't believe they were ever sorry for what they did in the first place because they can always spin it that the other person brought it on themselves or somehow deserved it. Maybe some people feel that forgiving heals. I don't. So many things to say and not sure how to say it. Zib, I've been reading your posts for years and I think you're one of those people that has allowed negativity to consume you. I don't think you're a horrible person, just bitter and angry about a lot of things. If a person is filled up with negatiivity, I don't see how there can be a lot of room for joy. That's just my opinion, and it's not even an expert opinion. I'm curious, if you don't believe forgiving can help a person heal, what does? Are we doomed to let the wounds fester for the rest of our lives?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 11, 2015 7:59:51 GMT -5
I don't believe you have to forgive someone to find peace. The happiest years of my life were basically when I had zero contact with her after my Dad died. I don't believe that just because someone brought you into this world, you OWE them. So they can be jerks and you have to suck it up. Not one person in my family told her to knock it off but they were sure all on me to get over it. F that. I tried to have a relationship once more and she still was the same old piece of shit she always was. I don't believe people are ever sincere when they apologize. They're either forced to by someone else or something is in it for them. Because I don't believe they were ever sorry for what they did in the first place because they can always spin it that the other person brought it on themselves or somehow deserved it. Maybe some people feel that forgiving heals. I don't. I think it's a simple choice. You can choose to forgive, or else endure bitterness, cynicism, and a chronic lack of faith in people into the indefinite future. Resentment seemingly provides clarity and a warming sense of righteousness, but it's toxic to us. As Pink Cashmere points out, forgiveness doesn't mean countenancing what an offender has done, nor does it require contrition on behalf of the offender. It's recompensing selflessness for selfishness. Good for evil. It affords healing, peace of mind, and often reconciliation. Lingering resentment is leaving the bullet in because you want the world see it fester--a testament to what was done to you. It's not going to hurt the one you resent as much as it's going to hurt you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 8:08:42 GMT -5
Wow, not only do I understand Virgil Showlion's posts without having to think too hard, but I actually agree with most of what he's saying. What's the world coming to?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 9:17:41 GMT -5
The girl in the OP, if I'd spent all these years being mad at her, I think it would have been a lot less likely that she would've come to me like she did that day. If I hadn't been in a good place myself, I would have belittled her effort instead of appreciating it. It probably would have hurt her, but it would have been bad for me too. Being mean and hurtful can feel satisfying in that moment when it's directed at someone that has wronged you, but I'd rather be the person I was that day. As it was, we were both able to walk away feeling like we'd done something right and good. It doesn't mean we'll ever be friends, and that's ok.
But her wrongs were minor in the grand scheme of things, so I'm not saying that other situations aren't much more complicated and difficult to get past.
Sometimes life plays out so that your enemies have to circle back to you and be humble. I think the reason it happens like that has something to do with some universal truth and I don't think beating them over the head with what they've done to you is what brings it about.
She's not the only person that's apologized to me this year for some past history or tried to make amends for something they did to me a while back, she's just the one that surprised me the most. One of them, I'm still kind of struggling with. That one made me do a lot of thinking about a story a comedian told years ago. At the end of the story, the moral was that "everybody that shits on you ain't your enemy and everybody that gets shit off of you ain't your friend". It probably makes more sense if you know the whole story lol.
I don't really believe in coincidence and I've started to wonder if there's a lesson for me in there somewhere.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Aug 11, 2015 9:19:13 GMT -5
I won't presume to speak for Dark, but, I must say that I can't agree that he needs to forgive and reconnect with his stepfather.
Child abuse -- whether by a parent/other relative/teacher/member of the clergy/neighbor/physician/whomever -- and whether the abuse is physical/emotional/sexual/power trip -- is the ULTIMATE evil. Children are vulnerable, defenseless, and pure and simple victims.
From what Dark has posted, it does not sound like this was a "one-off, stepfather lost his cool during a stressful time" situation.
This reads like a pattern of abuse over years.
In other words, it doesn't sound like there was ever a loving parent-child relationship and so nothing is there to resurrect and try to rebuild.
While forgiveness can, and often, does, provide relief and comfort to the person who was wronged, there are situations where it simply can't. And, we need to be careful not to paint with a broad brush. We don't want to vicitimize the victim again by setting arbitrary timelines about when it is time to forgive and move on. Forgiveness, IF it happens, happens when the victim is ready, IF ever.
Let's allow Dark to make that decision for himself (and for his own family). In the meantime, he needs people to truly hear what he is saying and not quickly brush it aside with suggestions to simply forgive and reconnect. Sometimes, it is just not that simple.
JMHO. YMMV.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 11, 2015 9:31:54 GMT -5
I won't presume to speak for Dark, but, I must say that I can't agree that he needs to forgive and reconnect with his stepfather. Child abuse -- whether by a parent/other relative/teacher/member of the clergy/neighbor/physician/whomever -- and whether the abuse is physical/emotional/sexusal/power trip -- is the ULTIMATE evil. Children are vulnerable, defenseless, and pure and simple victims. From what Dark has posted, it does not sound like this was a "one-off, stepfather lost his cool during a stressful time" situation. This reads like a pattern of abuse over years. In other words, it doesn't sound like there was ever a loving parent-child relationship and so nothing is there to resurrect and try to rebuild. While forgiveness can, and often, does, provide relief and comfort to the person who was wronged, there are situations where it simply can't. And, we need to be careful not to paint with a broad brush. We don't want to vicitimize the victim again by setting arbitrary timelines about when it is time to forgive and move on. Forgiveness, IF it happens, happens when the victim is ready, IF ever. Let's allow Dark to make that decision for himself (and for his own family). In the meantime, he needs people to truly hear what he is saying and not quickly brush it aside with suggestions to simply forgive and reconnect. Sometimes, it is just not that simple. JMHO. YMMV. The repeated lectures on the subject of forgiveness from Virgil - who has admitted he's never encountered domestic abuse in his life or the life of anyone he's close to - come across as sanctimonious and insensitive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 10:25:44 GMT -5
I won't presume to speak for Dark, but, I must say that I can't agree that he needs to forgive and reconnect with his stepfather. Child abuse -- whether by a parent/other relative/teacher/member of the clergy/neighbor/physician/whomever -- and whether the abuse is physical/emotional/sexusal/power trip -- is the ULTIMATE evil. Children are vulnerable, defenseless, and pure and simple victims. From what Dark has posted, it does not sound like this was a "one-off, stepfather lost his cool during a stressful time" situation. This reads like a pattern of abuse over years. In other words, it doesn't sound like there was ever a loving parent-child relationship and so nothing is there to resurrect and try to rebuild. While forgiveness can, and often, does, provide relief and comfort to the person who was wronged, there are situations where it simply can't. And, we need to be careful not to paint with a broad brush. We don't want to vicitimize the victim again by setting arbitrary timelines about when it is time to forgive and move on. Forgiveness, IF it happens, happens when the victim is ready, IF ever. Let's allow Dark to make that decision for himself (and for his own family). In the meantime, he needs people to truly hear what he is saying and not quickly brush it aside with suggestions to simply forgive and reconnect. Sometimes, it is just not that simple. JMHO. YMMV. I never said Dark should reconnect with his stepfather , unless he decides he want to. I think sometimes we get caught up in semantics with the word forgiveness, because it means different things to different people. I don't think I even used the word forgiveness in reference to Dark. I did encourage him to try to find a way to let go of some of the anger, and I stand by that because his anger is still so strong and I believe holding on to all of it for forever is bad for Dark. Anger has a purpose, but when it's overwhelming, it can be destructive, even physically. What affects the mind can affect the body. None of that means he's not justified in what he feels or that I think he should just get over it and pretend it never happened. Or that he should jump right on it today. I'm definitely not trying to minimize Dark's pain. And if that's how my posts on the subject came across, I truly apologize Sum Dum Gai. I don't know Dark's stepfather, but I've decided I don't like him. Screw him. But I do like Dark and I want him to be ok even if he thinks everything I've said is a bunch of bullshit.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 11, 2015 10:29:54 GMT -5
I don't believe you have to forgive someone to find peace. The happiest years of my life were basically when I had zero contact with her after my Dad died. I don't believe that just because someone brought you into this world, you OWE them. So they can be jerks and you have to suck it up. Not one person in my family told her to knock it off but they were sure all on me to get over it. F that. I tried to have a relationship once more and she still was the same old piece of shit she always was. I don't believe people are ever sincere when they apologize. They're either forced to by someone else or something is in it for them. Because I don't believe they were ever sorry for what they did in the first place because they can always spin it that the other person brought it on themselves or somehow deserved it. Maybe some people feel that forgiving heals. I don't. I think it's a simple choice. You can choose to forgive, or else endure bitterness, cynicism, and a chronic lack of faith in people into the indefinite future. Resentment seemingly provides clarity and a warming sense of righteousness, but it's toxic to us. As Pink Cashmere points out, forgiveness doesn't mean countenancing what an offender has done, nor does it require contrition on behalf of the offender. It's recompensing selflessness for selfishness. Good for evil. It affords healing, peace of mind, and often reconciliation. Lingering resentment is leaving the bullet in because you want the world see it fester--a testament to what was done to you. It's not going to hurt the one you resent as much as it's going to hurt you. I disagree. If someone very close to you, especially a parent, violated your trust and behaved in a truly evil way, as Dark's step dad clearly did, your choices are not to either forgive the behavior or live forever in toxic bitterness. I think there are two types of people - those who admit they are sinners, who recognize the things they have done that were less than stellar, and who can honestly seek forgiveness from those people they have harmed. Then there are the other people, who don't have the ability to stand outside themselves and honestly see the results of their actions. Those people never believe they did anything wrong, or they blame their bad actions on drugs, or depression, or whatever - they never take personal responsibility for things going off the rails. IMHO those people can never honestly admit they screwed up, and therefore don't really want forgiveness. And if someone can't ask for forgiveness, you are under no obligation to grant it. That doesn't mean you're stuck living in bitterness. You accept that this person is the way he is, and that you want to minimize any contact you have with him, then write him off and move forward. IMHO, the people who get stuck living in bitterness are those people who live their lives expecting people like Dark's step dad to suddenly feel remorse and beg forgiveness - if you live your life never expecting the person to be anything other than what he's always been, you don't feel any bitterness or regret. Just happiness you didn't turn out to be a turd like him, and that you no longer have to be in close contact with him.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 11, 2015 10:43:24 GMT -5
I think it's a simple choice. You can choose to forgive, or else endure bitterness, cynicism, and a chronic lack of faith in people into the indefinite future. Resentment seemingly provides clarity and a warming sense of righteousness, but it's toxic to us. As Pink Cashmere points out, forgiveness doesn't mean countenancing what an offender has done, nor does it require contrition on behalf of the offender. It's recompensing selflessness for selfishness. Good for evil. It affords healing, peace of mind, and often reconciliation. Lingering resentment is leaving the bullet in because you want the world see it fester--a testament to what was done to you. It's not going to hurt the one you resent as much as it's going to hurt you. I disagree. If someone very close to you, especially a parent, violated your trust and behaved in a truly evil way, as Dark's step dad clearly did, your choices are not to either forgive the behavior or live forever in toxic bitterness. I think there are two types of people - those who admit they are sinners, who recognize the things they have done that were less than stellar, and who can honestly seek forgiveness from those people they have harmed. Then there are the other people, who don't have the ability to stand outside themselves and honestly see the results of their actions. Those people never believe they did anything wrong, or they blame their bad actions on drugs, or depression, or whatever - they never take personal responsibility for things going off the rails. IMHO those people can never honestly admit they screwed up, and therefore don't really want forgiveness. And if someone can't ask for forgiveness, you are under no obligation to grant it. That doesn't mean you're stuck living in bitterness. You accept that this person is the way he is, and that you want to minimize any contact you have with him, then write him off and move forward. IMHO, the people who get stuck living in bitterness are those people who live their lives expecting people like Dark's step dad to suddenly feel remorse and beg forgiveness - if you live your life never expecting the person to be anything other than what he's always been, you don't feel any bitterness or regret. Just happiness you didn't turn out to be a turd like him, and that you no longer have to be in close contact with him. Amen!!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 11, 2015 11:18:36 GMT -5
We've been down this road before. The forgive people rarely experienced what the abused people did so have zero clue what they're asking.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Aug 11, 2015 11:59:23 GMT -5
I'm finding the forgiveness discussion interesting, for my own self. I'm having a hard time forgiving myself for several things, to the point where I'm thinking about talking to either DH's pastor or seeing if my old therapist is still in network.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 12:08:09 GMT -5
I think it's a simple choice. You can choose to forgive, or else endure bitterness, cynicism, and a chronic lack of faith in people into the indefinite future. Resentment seemingly provides clarity and a warming sense of righteousness, but it's toxic to us. As Pink Cashmere points out, forgiveness doesn't mean countenancing what an offender has done, nor does it require contrition on behalf of the offender. It's recompensing selflessness for selfishness. Good for evil. It affords healing, peace of mind, and often reconciliation. Lingering resentment is leaving the bullet in because you want the world see it fester--a testament to what was done to you. It's not going to hurt the one you resent as much as it's going to hurt you. I disagree. If someone very close to you, especially a parent, violated your trust and behaved in a truly evil way, as Dark's step dad clearly did, your choices are not to either forgive the behavior or live forever in toxic bitterness. I think there are two types of people - those who admit they are sinners, who recognize the things they have done that were less than stellar, and who can honestly seek forgiveness from those people they have harmed. Then there are the other people, who don't have the ability to stand outside themselves and honestly see the results of their actions. Those people never believe they did anything wrong, or they blame their bad actions on drugs, or depression, or whatever - they never take personal responsibility for things going off the rails. IMHO those people can never honestly admit they screwed up, and therefore don't really want forgiveness. And if someone can't ask for forgiveness, you are under no obligation to grant it. That doesn't mean you're stuck living in bitterness. You accept that this person is the way he is, and that you want to minimize any contact you have with him, then write him off and move forward. IMHO, the people who get stuck living in bitterness are those people who live their lives expecting people like Dark's step dad to suddenly feel remorse and beg forgiveness - if you live your life never expecting the person to be anything other than what he's always been, you don't feel any bitterness or regret. Just happiness you didn't turn out to be a turd like him, and that you no longer have to be in close contact with him. Ok, just so I don't look a sanctimonious ass talking about some shit that I don't have a clue about....... my Grandmother's husband was a pedophile. I didn't tell anybody until I was in my 30's, and even then I only told my Mom, my Aunt and one of my Aunt's daughters. He had been dead for a while by then, and I intentionally left my Grandmother out of my disclosure, I guess to protect her since there was nothing to be done about it by then anyway. The funny thing (not haha funny) is that even as a child, I knew that what he was doing had everything to do with him being evil and nothing to do with me being a bad person or anything like that. I learned to kind of disappear from things and lock things away in some dark corner of my mind. I'm not sure why I didn't tell anybody, nobody really like him anyway, my Grandmother wasn't even all that crazy about him for as far back as I can remember, so it wasn't fear that nobody would believe me or that nobody would stand up for me that kept me from telling it. I think that even then, in my little mind, I was protecting them by keeping quiet. When I became an adult, I didn't pretend to like him, but I could tolerate being in the same room with him without wanting to knock him out, as long as he didn't say or do anything out of the way. I didn't even hate him. Hating him would have still been giving him power, and I wanted him to have no power in my life. I don't want to live my life hating people anyway. I knew who and what he was, and I was determined to not let his evil make me be someone I didn't want to be. I didn't want him to make me be unable to trust men or have healthy relationships. I didn't want him to make me be so closed off that I couldn't love and be loved. I wanted to shed all the evil that had touched me like a second skin, I didn't want to let his evil worm it's way into my heart and take up residence. I couldn't, because I wanted to be a good person and I wanted be open to whatever joy came my way. Besides what he did to me, he was just a terrible person period, and I assume he was ok with being a terrible person because that's who he was until the day he died. But I couldn't let the fact that he never stopped being an asshole and never asked for my forgiveness stop me from doing what I needed to do for me. Eventually I understood that although I'd always been on the right path to putting it behind me, I'd learned to be so good at tucking things away, that I was almost completely out of touch with my emotions, unless it was a strong one, like love for my kids and my family or anger. So I had some more work to do. I needed to do something about those boxes I'd tucked all the terrible things into, and explore my real feelings instead of continuing to deny them, then work through whatever negative feelings I was still holding on to, so I could let all of it go and just be done with it. It never had shit to do with him, every step I took was all about me. Like I said in an earlier post, he didn't deserve anything good from me, but I deserved to be completely free from his evil. Any negative thing or feeling that stemmed from him and his actions, I didn't want it in my life. It happened in stages, and over a long period of time. I didn't forgive him in the way that a lot of people look at forgiveness, but I did let it go and I think I'm better off for doing it.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 11, 2015 12:13:24 GMT -5
Ok, just so I don't look a sanctimonious ass talking about some shit that I don't have a clue about....... You haven't come across as sanctimonious. (I know your quote wasn't directly addressing me, but I'm the one that threw the "sanctimonious" phrase out there, so wanted to respond.) Your posts come across as caring and thoughtful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 12:15:35 GMT -5
We've been down this road before. The forgive people rarely experienced what the abused people did so have zero clue what they're asking. Well, I do have a clue. And I chose to do everything I could to not let somebody else destroy me or turn me into a bitter, hateful person. I want to have a joyful life, in spite of. But everybody is different and we all have our own paths to walk.
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Abby Normal
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Post by Abby Normal on Aug 11, 2015 12:23:59 GMT -5
I don't think Darks situation is a matter of forgiveness at all. To me it's not a matter of forgive or don't. Its a mentality of victim or survivor. Victim mentality will wallow in the "what happened to me sucks" and lets it drag them down. Survivor mentality lets them move on- whatever the coping mechanism. It may be forgiveness, it may be distance, it may be indifference. It will be different for everyone.
back to the OP- I would be inclined the next time I see the woman to find out why she thought I was involved with the guy in the first place. The fact that the next GF had issues to, I'm guessing he was saying something that wasn't true.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 12:27:40 GMT -5
Ok, just so I don't look a sanctimonious ass talking about some shit that I don't have a clue about....... You haven't come across as sanctimonious. (I know your quote wasn't directly addressing me, but I'm the one that threw the "sanctimonious" phrase out there, so wanted to respond.) Your posts come across as caring and thoughtful. Thank you for saying that. Like zib said, we've had these conversations before about forgiveness, and I'm usually the lone person trying to explain how it can benefit the person that was wronged. So I kind of felt anyway, that I should finally explain that I do know exactly how difficult it can be to let certain things go, and I didn't just read about how letting things go can be good for your own well being, I've lived it. Even if they still disagree, or it's just not right for them, at least people can understand that I'm not just talking out my ass when I keep saying the same thing over and over every time the subject comes up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 12:30:24 GMT -5
I don't think Darks situation is a matter of forgiveness at all. To me it's not a matter of forgive or don't. Its a mentality of victim or survivor. Victim mentality will wallow in the "what happened to me sucks" and lets it drag them down. Survivor mentality lets them move on- whatever the coping mechanism. It may be forgiveness, it may be distance, it may be indifference. It will be different for everyone. back to the OP- I would be inclined the next time I see the woman to find out why she thought I was involved with the guy in the first place. The fact that the next GF had issues to, I'm guessing he was saying something that wasn't true. No ma'am, I'm not asking her anything lol. I do kind of wish I'd told her that I honestly wasn't involved with him, just for the sake of clarity, but I'm not bringing it up again unless she does. I did come to the conclusion that he was the root of the problem, especially after the next GF had issues.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 11, 2015 12:32:25 GMT -5
I don't believe you have to forgive someone to find peace. The happiest years of my life were basically when I had zero contact with her after my Dad died. I don't believe that just because someone brought you into this world, you OWE them. So they can be jerks and you have to suck it up. Not one person in my family told her to knock it off but they were sure all on me to get over it. F that. I tried to have a relationship once more and she still was the same old piece of shit she always was. I don't believe people are ever sincere when they apologize. They're either forced to by someone else or something is in it for them. Because I don't believe they were ever sorry for what they did in the first place because they can always spin it that the other person brought it on themselves or somehow deserved it. Maybe some people feel that forgiving heals. I don't. So many things to say and not sure how to say it. Zib, I've been reading your posts for years and I think you're one of those people that has allowed negativity to consume you. I don't think you're a horrible person, just bitter and angry about a lot of things. If a person is filled up with negatiivity, I don't see how there can be a lot of room for joy. That's just my opinion, and it's not even an expert opinion. I'm curious, if you don't believe forgiving can help a person heal, what does? Are we doomed to let the wounds fester for the rest of our lives? I'm on my phone so no emoticons...but "yeah this" Zib, I think you have let the negativity fester in you and it isn't healthy. Even the way you post about your daughter and your dh's dd, anger maybe? I can't put my finger on my thoughts but most of your posts come across as angry and negative. I'm no psychologist and don't even pretend to play one on the Internet, but it seems that the pent up anger from your childhood is really impacting you to this day I'm with Pink...and Im about to quote Frozen...just "let it go".
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 11, 2015 13:15:36 GMT -5
Could be.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 11, 2015 13:57:27 GMT -5
I don't think Darks situation is a matter of forgiveness at all. To me it's not a matter of forgive or don't. Its a mentality of victim or survivor. Victim mentality will wallow in the "what happened to me sucks" and lets it drag them down. Survivor mentality lets them move on- whatever the coping mechanism. It may be forgiveness, it may be distance, it may be indifference. It will be different for everyone. back to the OP- I would be inclined the next time I see the woman to find out why she thought I was involved with the guy in the first place. The fact that the next GF had issues to, I'm guessing he was saying something that wasn't true. I like this definition better. I don't like being told I'm obligated to forgive the crappy things that happened to me, or I'll spend my life wallowing in bitterness. I'm a happy person, I like my life, and I think I started really enjoying it when I realized the person who behaved in a shitty way towards me was what she was, and would always be what she was, and there was no point wasting any thought or emotion in it. I didn't need to 'forgive' to let go. I just realized letting go was good for me, so I did it.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Aug 11, 2015 14:03:51 GMT -5
It could have been a result of Celebrate Recovery (for people dealing with hurt, hang ups and habits) or some other 12 step group.
The important thing is that she recognized that she wronged you and apologized.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 14:04:58 GMT -5
From merriam-webster:
Full Definition of FORGIVE
transitive verb
1
a: to give up resentment of or claim to requital for <forgive an insult>
b: to grant relief from payment of <forgive a debt>
2
: to cease to feel resentment against (an offender) :
I think we attach a lot of extra stuff onto forgiveness and make it more than what it is.
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