Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 12, 2015 11:45:37 GMT -5
Thanks for announcing your exit? And, really what was the point, other than to pass judgement on those you deem petty and immature?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 12, 2015 12:05:51 GMT -5
Thanks for announcing your exit? And, really what was the point, other than to pass judgement on those you deem petty and immature? LOL. I was just reading over here and you beat me to this. If you want to say "hey, so and so, I think you have said something rude", just say it. No one here is expecting an update on which threads each poster was reading and whether or not they will be reading more posts, and if so why/why not. A passive aggressive and sanctimonious post about how you are leaving and not coming back is pretty incongruous with calling other people petty and immature.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 12:14:06 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 12, 2015 12:19:55 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible. I don't think anyone's getting bent out of shape. But I do think Virgil needs to be reminded that his life experiences don't dictate how other people should feel. He also seems to have lived a pretty charmed life, it's not not all about him, and his thoughts on forgiveness can be very hurtful toward some people who have Not experience the same life
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 12, 2015 12:21:00 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible. Huh? I'm confused. Who is bent out of shape, specifically? People are allowed to disagree, right? And why should Virgil get a special free pass - I'm not sure that "talking shit" regularly should be the determining factor on whether people are allowed to disagree with or even take offense at the things you say. We'd all have to agree with Paul all the f'ing time.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 12, 2015 12:24:09 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible. Actually, the degree of skepticism is generally proportional to the amount of salt in that particular idiom, so that means... With all the fussin' and the feudin', it seems to me that what we all ought to do is take a deep breath, shake hands, and forgive each other.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 12, 2015 12:30:38 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible. Actually, the degree of skepticism is generally proportional to the amount of salt in that particular idiom, so that means... With all the fussin' and the feudin', it seems to me that what we all ought to do is take a deep breath, shake hands, and forgive each other. I forgive you for being condescending.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Aug 12, 2015 12:34:21 GMT -5
Actually, the degree of skepticism is generally proportional to the amount of salt in that particular idiom, so that means... With all the fussin' and the feudin', it seems to me that what we all ought to do is take a deep breath, shake hands, and forgive each other. I forgive you for being condescending. I thought the forgivee was supposed to be genuinely remorseful first?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 12:36:36 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible. Huh? I'm confused. Who is bent out of shape, specifically? People are allowed to disagree, right? And why should Virgil get a special free pass - I'm not sure that "talking shit" regularly should be the determining factor on whether people are allowed to disagree with or even take offense at the things you say. We'd all have to agree with Paul all the f'ing time. I don't know if it's me being mean/lazy/jaded or what, but when I encounter someone talking out their ass that much, I may argue with them a little bit before I determine that I'm not wasting my breath/typing on that particular moron. And who doesn't love the Paulster?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 12, 2015 12:36:34 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 12, 2015 12:39:42 GMT -5
Actually, the degree of skepticism is generally proportional to the amount of salt in that particular idiom, so that means... With all the fussin' and the feudin', it seems to me that what we all ought to do is take a deep breath, shake hands, and forgive each other. I forgive you for being condescending. I forgive you for mistaking zealous defense of my arguments for condescension.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 12:40:21 GMT -5
I just don't know why anyone is getting bent out of shape. So Virgil is talking shit - since when is that a new thing? I guess I have no problem reading his posts and taking them with the most miniscule grain of salt possible. I don't think anyone's getting bent out of shape. But I do think Virgil needs to be reminded that his life experiences don't dictate how other people should feel. He also seems to have lived a pretty charmed life, it's not not all about him, and his thoughts on forgiveness can be very hurtful toward some people who have Not experience the same life Totally get that. I guess when I see him doing things like that I just remember that he is the YMAM poster child for naivety regarding real-world experiences... like having our own virtual kid.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 12, 2015 12:42:23 GMT -5
I don't think anyone's getting bent out of shape. But I do think Virgil needs to be reminded that his life experiences don't dictate how other people should feel. He also seems to have lived a pretty charmed life, it's not not all about him, and his thoughts on forgiveness can be very hurtful toward some people who have Not experience the same life Totally get that. I guess when I see him doing things like that I just remember that he is the YMAM poster child for naivety regarding real-world experiences... like having our own virtual kid. It's like our very own Sheldon
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 12:47:09 GMT -5
Totally get that. I guess when I see him doing things like that I just remember that he is the YMAM poster child for naivety regarding real-world experiences... like having our own virtual kid. It's like our very own Sheldon exactly!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 12:47:26 GMT -5
I forgive you for being condescending. I thought the forgivee was supposed to be genuinely remorseful first?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 13:02:35 GMT -5
I don't understand forgiveness. Some people have done some awful things to me. I don't spend my life dwelling on it, but I didn't forget what was done and I will NEVER trust that person again. Letting go was for my own mental health. I don't give a fuck about the other persons mental well being, or what they think about me. I don't consider that forgiveness. I think letting go is forgiveness. A common phrase is "forgive and forget", forgetting is not necessary to forgive. Some things, we're better served not to forget even if we could, so we don't give that person the opportunity to harm us again. What do you consider forgiveness to be? I'm interested in exactly what other people think it is, I've already tried to explain what I think it is.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 12, 2015 13:20:26 GMT -5
I don't understand forgiveness. Some people have done some awful things to me. I don't spend my life dwelling on it, but I didn't forget what was done and I will NEVER trust that person again. Letting go was for my own mental health. I don't give a fuck about the other persons mental well being, or what they think about me. I don't consider that forgiveness. I think letting go is forgiveness. A common phrase is "forgive and forget", forgetting is not necessary to forgive. Some things, we're better served not to forget even if we could, so we don't give that person the opportunity to harm us again. What do you consider forgiveness to be? I'm interested in exactly what other people think it is, I've already tried to explain what I think it is. I've always thought of forgive and forget as one entity, where you absolve a wrongdoer and put them back in as good graces/esteem as they were previously because you understand why they wronged you and believe it won't happen again, or at least they will be making a valiant effort not to let it happen again.
I'll forgive my husband for snapping at me if he had a bad day, realizes what he did, apologizes, and changes his behavior. If it happens daily, i don't forgive, I leave.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 12, 2015 13:25:46 GMT -5
To me, forgiveness implies you're ok with what happened, that you except the other person was flawed and behaved badly, but you understand the behavior was caused by circumstances they didn't understand or couldn't control - they were a drug addict, they had mental health issues, they themselves were abused as a kid and never learned how to parent, they had anger issues etc. Forgiveness, to me, implies that you hold nothing against the other person and want bygones to be bygones, and from then on you'll maintain a close relationship.
I don't think you can really achieve forgiveness with someone who doesn't admit they did anything against you, or who admits they did something against you but doesn't give a shit that it wrecked your life.
However, I think you can (and should) let go of the anger you have towards them, without actually forgiving them, so it doesn't overshadow your life. It's ok to cut toxic people out of your life, and dismiss them from your mind. If they come back years later, hat in hand, apologizing, I think you get to choose if you want to consider that apology or if you want to tell them to disappear. You are not obligated to forgive anyone, and I think there are people who have done such heinous things, forgiveness isn't possible.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 12, 2015 13:36:10 GMT -5
I don't think anyone's getting bent out of shape. But I do think Virgil needs to be reminded that his life experiences don't dictate how other people should feel. He also seems to have lived a pretty charmed life, it's not not all about him, and his thoughts on forgiveness can be very hurtful toward some people who have Not experience the same life Totally get that. I guess when I see him doing things like that I just remember that he is the YMAM poster child for naivety regarding real-world experiences... like having our own virtual kid. Have you stopped trying to teach your kid about not hurting other people's feelings?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 13:50:12 GMT -5
Totally get that. I guess when I see him doing things like that I just remember that he is the YMAM poster child for naivety regarding real-world experiences... like having our own virtual kid. Have you stopped trying to teach your kid about not hurting other people's feelings? mine, I do try and get him to respect other people's personal space (we haven't gotten to feelings yet) and how they want to play/use something. But this "kid"? Meh - someone else will do it.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 12, 2015 14:06:57 GMT -5
Have you stopped trying to teach your kid about not hurting other people's feelings? mine, I do try and get him to respect other people's personal space (we haven't gotten to feelings yet) and how they want to play/use something. But this "kid"? Meh - someone else will do it. Yes they are and you're welcome. (I assume anyway)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 14:08:48 GMT -5
Thank you for the explanations.
I don't disagree that those things can be a part of forgiving someone. I guess when I started reading different things and really thinking about it, trying to understand what it really was, I came up with what I believe is the root of forgiveness, which is the definition I posted earlier from merriam-webster... letting go of the resentment and anger. Everything I choose to do over and beyond that, just makes my forgiveness "bigger" (I can't think of another way to phrase that right now lol). And it's ok if I choose to do nothing beyond letting go of the resentment and continue to protect myself from that person.
I use to think I had to do all that to forgive people, and that just wasn't gonna happen in this lifetime. I had read and heard that forgiving helps the person that does it and it just sounded stupid to me. Then one thing led to another and I got to where I am now.
I do have to say that I don't think forgiveness on any level implies that you're ok with what happened. At best, it just means you accept that it happened. Acceptance isn't approval.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue, I see it got a little testy around here for a minute lol. I do like reading other people's thoughts on the subject though, so thanks again.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 12, 2015 15:11:27 GMT -5
Have you stopped trying to teach your kid about not hurting other people's feelings? mine, I do try and get him to respect other people's personal space (we haven't gotten to feelings yet) and how they want to play/use something. But this "kid"? Meh - someone else will do it. Why should anyone expect a thread on forgiveness, in the middle of a general public message board, to indulge them with a "personal space" (read "thought vacuum") where they don't have to suffer through posters extolling the virtues of forgiveness? The board has no shortage of "Woe is me. My neighbour ran over the cat with the lawnmower." threads, and even if the OP is raging off their nut, you'll appreciate the fact that I don't come in citing articles about forgiveness. I'm perfectly aware that that's the OP's de facto "personal space". But here we have a thread on the topic of forgiveness, with Pink Cashmere providing a compelling tale of forgiveness in the OP and asking poster for their thoughts. Hence no, I'm not going to equivocate or foot around people's feelings because advocacy for forgiveness offends them. If you want me to shut up, post some studies showing forgiveness doesn't promote wellness. Post some articles proving that forgiveness isn't possible. Post a persuasive anecdote about how your lack of forgiveness brought you prosperity and peace of mind. Instead, what do we have? "So we should just forgive the assholes?", "Let them eat cake!". What are these even supposed to be? Counterarguments? Rescuing people's feelings? You guys have your 1,001 hate-em'-and-feel-good-about-it threads just a click away. Start another 'Duggars' thread and remind us all why Josh Duggar's brainwashed sisters were fools for forgiving him (assuming they even had the ability to do so). In this thread, I wanted to tell Pink Cashmere "good for you!" and back up why I thought so. If that makes me naive and an idealist, so be it. They accuse me of being a cynic and a pessimist in the finance threads, so it all balances out.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 12, 2015 15:17:12 GMT -5
mine, I do try and get him to respect other people's personal space (we haven't gotten to feelings yet) and how they want to play/use something. But this "kid"? Meh - someone else will do it. Why should anyone expect a thread on forgiveness, in the middle of a general public message board, to indulge them with a "personal space" (read "thought vacuum") where they don't have to suffer through posters extolling the virtues of forgiveness? The board has no shortage of "Woe is me. My neighbour ran over the cat with the lawnmower." threads, and even if the OP is raging off their nut, you'll appreciate the fact that I don't come in citing articles about forgiveness. I'm perfectly aware that that's the OP's de facto "personal space". But here we have a thread on the topic of forgiveness, with Pink Cashmere providing a compelling tale of forgiveness in the OP and asking poster for their thoughts. Hence no, I'm not going to equivocate or foot around people's feelings because advocacy for forgiveness offends them. If you want me to shut up, post some studies showing forgiveness doesn't promote wellness. Post some articles proving that forgiveness isn't possible. Post a persuasive anecdote about how your lack of forgiveness brought you prosperity and peace of mind. Instead, what do we have? "So we should just forgive the assholes?", "Let them eat cake!". What are these even supposed to be? Counterarguments? Rescuing people's feelings? You guys have your 1,001 hate-em'-and-feel-good-about-it threads just a click away. Start another 'Duggars' thread and remind us all why Josh Duggar's brainwashed sisters were fools for forgiving him (assuming they even had the ability to do so). In this thread, I wanted to tell Pink Cashmere "good for you!" and back up why I thought so. If that makes me naive and an idealist, so be it. They accuse me of being a cynic and a pessimist in the finance threads, so it all balances out. This would fly if you'd discussed Pink's story exclusively, but instead you harped on Dark's. Which is a situation most of us would agree doesn't need forgiving as much as letting go of.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 12, 2015 17:44:16 GMT -5
Thank you for the explanations. I don't disagree that those things can be a part of forgiving someone. I guess when I started reading different things and really thinking about it, trying to understand what it really was, I came up with what I believe is the root of forgiveness, which is the definition I posted earlier from merriam-webster... letting go of the resentment and anger. Everything I choose to do over and beyond that, just makes my forgiveness "bigger" (I can't think of another way to phrase that right now lol). And it's ok if I choose to do nothing beyond letting go of the resentment and continue to protect myself from that person. I use to think I had to do all that to forgive people, and that just wasn't gonna happen in this lifetime. I had read and heard that forgiving helps the person that does it and it just sounded stupid to me. Then one thing led to another and I got to where I am now. I do have to say that I don't think forgiveness on any level implies that you're ok with what happened. At best, it just means you accept that it happened. Acceptance isn't approval.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue, I see it got a little testy around here for a minute lol. I do like reading other people's thoughts on the subject though, so thanks again.
I think most people get forgiveness wrong because they think it is linked with forgetting, pretending it did not happen. That is BS. Read any good metaphysical book on this and you will learn forgiving is for the forgiver, not the forgivee. It is acknowledging what happened, happened and letting it go. If to let it go you need to not deal with the person ever again, or in a measured way, that's fine. Hanging on to stories and the pain of what happened holds you back.
And I think it can be hard to let go, because frankly we are human and not perfect. So if takes time, years, decades, I think as long as one is letting it go the best they can ... it is all good. MHO. (Radical Forgiveness might have been one of the several books I have read on this subject.)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 18:37:10 GMT -5
But here we have a thread on the topic of forgiveness, with Pink Cashmere providing a compelling tale of forgiveness in the OP and asking poster for their thoughts.
When I wrote the OP, I was really thinking about apologies and how remarkable it was to me that she just came out of the blue asking me to accept her apology after all that time, and how I thought making a sincere effort must have really been something she felt she needed to do. I wasn't really thinking about it as a story about forgiveness, but one about people apologizing. I'm not surprised (or unhappy) that we ended up talking about forgiveness, but that wasn't the angle that was on my mind when I started the thread.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 12, 2015 18:45:55 GMT -5
But here we have a thread on the topic of forgiveness, with Pink Cashmere providing a compelling tale of forgiveness in the OP and asking poster for their thoughts.
When I wrote the OP, I was really thinking about apologies and how remarkable it was to me that she just came out of the blue asking me to accept her apology after all that time, and how I thought making a sincere effort must have really been something she felt she needed to do. I wasn't really thinking about it as a story about forgiveness, but one about people apologizing. I'm not surprised (or unhappy) that we ended up talking about forgiveness, but that wasn't the angle that was on my mind when I started the thread. I think "stories of apologizing" would be a great new arc for the thread. Those were some of the most moving anecdotes in the "Chicken Soup for the Soul" book series.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 12, 2015 21:45:17 GMT -5
mine, I do try and get him to respect other people's personal space (we haven't gotten to feelings yet) and how they want to play/use something. But this "kid"? Meh - someone else will do it. Why should anyone expect a thread on forgiveness, in the middle of a general public message board, to indulge them with a "personal space" (read "thought vacuum") where they don't have to suffer through posters extolling the virtues of forgiveness? The board has no shortage of "Woe is me. My neighbour ran over the cat with the lawnmower." threads, and even if the OP is raging off their nut, you'll appreciate the fact that I don't come in citing articles about forgiveness. I'm perfectly aware that that's the OP's de facto "personal space". But here we have a thread on the topic of forgiveness, with Pink Cashmere providing a compelling tale of forgiveness in the OP and asking poster for their thoughts. Hence no, I'm not going to equivocate or foot around people's feelings because advocacy for forgiveness offends them. If you want me to shut up, post some studies showing forgiveness doesn't promote wellness. Post some articles proving that forgiveness isn't possible. Post a persuasive anecdote about how your lack of forgiveness brought you prosperity and peace of mind. Instead, what do we have? "So we should just forgive the assholes?", "Let them eat cake!". What are these even supposed to be? Counterarguments? Rescuing people's feelings? You guys have your 1,001 hate-em'-and-feel-good-about-it threads just a click away. Start another 'Duggars' thread and remind us all why Josh Duggar's brainwashed sisters were fools for forgiving him (assuming they even had the ability to do so). In this thread, I wanted to tell Pink Cashmere "good for you!" and back up why I thought so. If that makes me naive and an idealist, so be it. They accuse me of being a cynic and a pessimist in the finance threads, so it all balances out. The problem isn't a lack of studies nor is the problem that you posted your opinion on a thread where the discussion turned towards forgiveness. The problem is that you specifically pried into Dark's story by asking him details, even though you acknowledged up front how personal and difficult it would be for him to share, and then when he shared the personal, painful details you repeatedly badgered him about the choices he made in reaction to the situation. It wasn't enough that he shared with you, you felt the need to beat him into agreement with your personal views in post after post where you imply he is wrong and you know more about this subject. When you do this, it is disrespectful to the person whose story you seek and then whose choices you seek to invalidate. It's condescending because your posts to Dark are riddled with your personal judgment (such as what you will "condone" of his actions) and even worse, ridiculous of you to assume you understand anything about his situation and what he might be feeling.
It's not about whether forgiveness is "right" or "wrong", it's how insensitive you are in your discussions with people about the issue, especially since you have no basis or experience in this. Again, it's not about who can quote scripture or who has a study, it's about basic politeness in how you interact and about being self-aware enough to understand that there are things you know nothing about so come across as completely ignorant (on top of insensitive) when you try to press your opinions about them.
The analogy comparing your actions to those of Sheldon isn't far off. There are plenty of times when the statements that Sheldon makes have some basis in fact, but he is insensitive about when he makes them or makes them without considering whether his assertion is still factual when considering the other person's situation and views. Sheldon isn't offensive because his statements are wrong, he's a jerk because he is so uncaring of and ignorant about others. His single view of everything is only how it impacts him, which causes him huge blind spots in his knowledge.
You have a tendency to join in discussions on very sensitive issues such as child abuse, rape and domestic violence, specifically ask others to share their painful experiences and then proceed to shit all over them in your condescending responses where you imply that somehow you are an expert in that area and things that they say are "wrong." That's the problem here; your lack of consideration for others' feelings regarding sensitive subjects and your obliviousness to the fact that your lack of experience causes you huge lack of empathy and knowledge cause you to be a jerk to posters who have just bared their soul. It's rude and frankly you should be ashamed of your shabby treatment of others, not condescending to people who point this out.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 22:02:17 GMT -5
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 12, 2015 22:07:26 GMT -5
FWIW Virg, I was with you until the whole Dark thing. There are just some things that you have to experience to fully understand why people do what they do. Studies are all well and good, but comparing two people's stories of forgiveness is like comparing an apple to a chainsaw. No two people will have the same frame of reference, emotional stability, and interpretation of the same events the same way.
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