swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 12, 2015 22:09:29 GMT -5
FWIW Virg, I was with you until the whole Dark thing. There are just some things that you have to experience to fully understand why people do what they do. Studies are all well and good, but comparing two people's stories of forgiveness is like comparing an apple to a chainsaw. No two people will have the same frame of reference, emotional stability, and interpretation of the same events the same way. I dint think you even have to experience it. You need some empathy and the ability to see things from another point of view.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 12, 2015 22:11:21 GMT -5
I'm honestly not sure I ever can. I watched him beat and terrorize my mother. I heard him rape her. I sat by her bedside in the hospital after he crushed half her face. On multiple occasions we had to throw some clothes in backpacks and go sleep somewhere else because he threatened to come take my half brothers (his children). We slept in my mom's classroom once, locked inside the school building, while he vandalized her car, piled all of our stuff up in the living room at the house smashed the front window and ran the garden hose in through it and left it on while we were gone. I don't have many visible physical scars from provoking him so he would beat me instead of my younger brother, but the emotional ones will always be there. I don't imagine there's really anything he can say to excuse the behavior that ruined my childhood. The absolute last thing I want to hear coming out of his mouth is him blaming it on the drugs. I honestly don't think I'd be able to sit through it without trying to beat the shit out of him. The last time I talked to him in person I told him that if he ever contacted my mom or my brothers again I'd kill him and his body in the desert somewhere. I told him they were my brothers, not his sons, and as far as he was concerned they no longer exist. He did contact them several years later once they were adults, and I didn't follow through on the threat, although I definitely meant it at the time I said it, so I guess that's some progress. That might be about the extent of the progress I ever make when it comes to him. Just thinking about him while typing this I can feel my blood pressure rising. The two of us in the same room would not end well. Wow. It seems wise to sever contact with him then, given the sheer magnitude of the rift he created. Although I can't condone the threats. If at any point you become convinced that he's no longer a threat and genuinely contrite, bear in mind that the damage has already been done. It's a sunk cost. It doesn't factor into the decision on whether reconciling with him is a good decision for either you or him going forward. I gather that at this point you do still consider him a threat, a recidivist, and insincere in his apologies, in which case you're wise to keep your distance. Virgil, I guess we are different on this issue after all. I totally think Dark should forgive him, i.e. do the best to let the past go & this man, but definitely not in person. Through prayer, meditation or whatever but no need to find a guy who is likely still an abuser.
And I'm OK with the threats. He needed to do what he needed to do to protect himself & his family. When people do not play nice, sometimes letting them know you might go postal is a good thing.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 3:23:07 GMT -5
Seeing it a second time I realized what ticked me off about that post. See that bolded part? Who fucking cares! I don't give a damn what would be good for him. He lost the right to have me care about his well being when he repeatedly shat all over ours. Which is why I've made the case for selflessness. I agree with you that, eye for an eye, you owe him nothing but vengeance. milee et al.'s accusation is that I oughtn't have done this out of respect for your feelings, but would you rather that I be forthright with my opinions or instead that I tell you what you want to hear? If this character 'Sheldon' values brutal honesty over tact in open discussion and is unconcerned with presentation, then I resemble him in that regard. Throughout the broader discussion on forgiveness, reconciliation, etc., I haven't gotten the impression that I was drilling into a nerve with you in particular. Firstly because I've been careful to disclaim that I don't believe reconciliation is always possible or absolutely necessary. Secondly because my perception, based on your initial comments and feedback, is that you've reached the point where you'd prefer candidness to sympathy. Thirdly because you acknowledged early on that I don't countenance your step-father's sins against you nor do I wish to downplay their impact on your family. I don't want to run roughshod over your feelings, but I also don't want to be a menpleaser. Moreover, as has been cried from the rooftops, it's true that my arguments here are academic in nature. They're based on Christian teachings, the science of forgiveness, documentaries, observations in geopolitics, and my own limited experience with forgiving and being forgiven. Supposing I'd endured domestic abuse, I fail to see how my arguments would become more palatable. I'd either have to admit that forgiveness and reconciliation weren't for me, in which case I'd be playing the hypocrite, or else you'd be reading through anecdotes about my commitment to forgiving and possibly reconciling with my abuser, which are no different from the anecdotes and case studies in the many articles cited. If it turns out I have been blithely drilling into a nerve, my apologies for not perceiving that. I'm an engineer. It's in my nature to damn people's feelings when giving advice. What's more, if you want attaboys and motherly coos of sympathy, you'll certainly not be lacking for them on YMAM.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 5:48:08 GMT -5
Every time I leave, it's gone awry by the time I come back. Sheesh
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 13, 2015 7:11:39 GMT -5
FWIW Virg, I was with you until the whole Dark thing. There are just some things that you have to experience to fully understand why people do what they do. Studies are all well and good, but comparing two people's stories of forgiveness is like comparing an apple to a chainsaw. No two people will have the same frame of reference, emotional stability, and interpretation of the same events the same way. I dint think you even have to experience it. You need some empathy and the ability to see things from another point of view. And also the understanding that there is no 'right' way to get past shitty things that happen in your life. If you come out at the other side a decent human being who is generally happy and contributes to society, it's working for you, and you did it right.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 7:24:13 GMT -5
I dint think you even have to experience it. You need some empathy and the ability to see things from another point of view. And also the understanding that there is no 'right' way to get past shitty things that happen in your life. If you come out at the other side a decent human being who is generally happy and contributes to society, it's working for you, and you did it right. That's like saying there's no 'right' way to design an airport. As long as the planes aren't crashing into each other and people can more or less get to where they're going to, you did it right. Self-reflection and self-improvement aren't necessities, but they are virtues. It behooves us all to examine whether there are steps we can take to possibly better our circumstances (including our peace of mind) and the circumstances of others.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 13, 2015 7:29:59 GMT -5
And also the understanding that there is no 'right' way to get past shitty things that happen in your life. If you come out at the other side a decent human being who is generally happy and contributes to society, it's working for you, and you did it right. That's like saying there's no 'right' way to design an airport. As long as the planes aren't crashing into each other and people can more or less get to where they're going to, you did it right. Self-reflection and self-improvement aren't necessities, but they are virtues. It behooves us all to examine whether there are steps we can take to possibly better our circumstances (including our peace of mind) and the circumstances of others. Virgil, its time to do a Sheldon in your quest for personal improvement. Learn how to distinguish between emotional arguments and logical ones for starters. If you are willing, watching Big Bang Theory could be enlightening. Sheldon does not naturally understand social and emotional dynamics so he learns as best he can. Sometimes the person who needs self improvement is us. FWIW.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2015 7:30:21 GMT -5
Bullshit. Sometimes the best thing to do is say nothing if all you're going to spew out is platitudes about forgiving is good for everyone.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 13, 2015 7:33:30 GMT -5
Seeing it a second time I realized what ticked me off about that post. See that bolded part? Who fucking cares! I don't give a damn what would be good for him. He lost the right to have me care about his well being when he repeatedly shat all over ours. Which is why I've made the case for selflessness. I agree with you that, eye for an eye, you owe him nothing but vengeance. milee et al.'s accusation is that I oughtn't have done this out of respect for your feelings, but would you rather that I be forthright with my opinions or instead that I tell you what you want to hear? If this character 'Sheldon' values brutal honesty over tact in open discussion and is unconcerned with presentation, then I resemble him in that regard. Throughout the broader discussion on forgiveness, reconciliation, etc., I haven't gotten the impression that I was drilling into a nerve with you in particular. Firstly because I've been careful to disclaim that I don't believe reconciliation is always possible or absolutely necessary. Secondly because my perception, based on your initial comments and feedback, is that you've reached the point where you'd prefer candidness to sympathy. Thirdly because you acknowledged early on that I don't countenance your step-father's sins against you nor do I wish to downplay their impact on your family. I don't want to run roughshod over your feelings, but I also don't want to be a menpleaser. Moreover, as has been cried from the rooftops, it's true that my arguments here are academic in nature. They're based on Christian teachings, the science of forgiveness, documentaries, observations in geopolitics, and my own limited experience with forgiving and being forgiven. Supposing I'd endured domestic abuse, I fail to see how my arguments would become more palatable. I'd either have to admit that forgiveness and reconciliation weren't for me, in which case I'd be playing the hypocrite, or else you'd be reading through anecdotes about my commitment to forgiving and possibly reconciling with my abuser, which are no different from the anecdotes and case studies in the many articles cited. If it turns out I have been blithely drilling into a nerve, my apologies for not perceiving that. I'm an engineer. It's in my nature to damn people's feelings when giving advice. What's more, if you want attaboys and motherly coos of sympathy, you'll certainly not be lacking for them on YMAM. [ I'm concerned that you think YM is a bastion of sympathy. It's a pretty rough crowd here.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 13, 2015 7:34:33 GMT -5
And also the understanding that there is no 'right' way to get past shitty things that happen in your life. If you come out at the other side a decent human being who is generally happy and contributes to society, it's working for you, and you did it right. That's like saying there's no 'right' way to design an airport. As long as the planes aren't crashing into each other and people can more or less get to where they're going to, you did it right. Self-reflection and self-improvement aren't necessities, but they are virtues. It behooves us all to examine whether there are steps we can take to possibly better our circumstances (including our peace of mind) and the circumstances of others. Why is your way the best? Other than "the bible said so."
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 7:42:21 GMT -5
And I'm OK with the threats. He needed to do what he needed to do to protect himself & his family. When people do not play nice, sometimes letting them know you might go postal is a good thing.
Suffice it to say that if Dark reasonably believed the man contacting his family members was life or morally threatening, and if he reasonably believed that the threat was the only way to prevent his step-father from contacting them, then he did what was necessary to protect his loved ones and I countenance the threat the same as you. But given the man is trying to reconnect the family on Facebook, offering apologies and excuses over the phone, and given Dark's colourful comments about him, I got the strong impression the death threat was motivated by hatred. That I can't countenance. Especially since it precludes Dark's family from potentially reconciling with the man.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2015 7:43:52 GMT -5
Are you seriously being serious? WTF is wrong with you?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 7:44:05 GMT -5
That's like saying there's no 'right' way to design an airport. As long as the planes aren't crashing into each other and people can more or less get to where they're going to, you did it right. Self-reflection and self-improvement aren't necessities, but they are virtues. It behooves us all to examine whether there are steps we can take to possibly better our circumstances (including our peace of mind) and the circumstances of others. Why is your way the best? Other than "the bible said so." Science says so. An objective examination of the consequences in thousands of past case studies says so. A rudimentary examination of geopolitics says so. Virtually all major world religions say so. Kant's imperative says so, if you prefer Kantian ethics.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2015 7:44:33 GMT -5
I would think DARK a piece of shit father if he ever let his kids around that SOB.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 7:48:53 GMT -5
I would think DARK a piece of shit father if he ever let his kids around that SOB. We're talking about his brothers and mother, and the issue is contact over the phone, Facebook, etc., presumably with the intent to apologize and keep tabs, the same as with Dark.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 7:58:21 GMT -5
That's like saying there's no 'right' way to design an airport. As long as the planes aren't crashing into each other and people can more or less get to where they're going to, you did it right. Self-reflection and self-improvement aren't necessities, but they are virtues. It behooves us all to examine whether there are steps we can take to possibly better our circumstances (including our peace of mind) and the circumstances of others. Virgil, its time to do a Sheldon in your quest for personal improvement. Learn how to distinguish between emotional arguments and logical ones for starters. If you are willing, watching Big Bang Theory could be enlightening. Sheldon does not naturally understand social and emotional dynamics so he learns as best he can. Sometimes the person who needs self improvement is us. FWIW. Since I seem to be raising people's blood pressure, fair enough. Thanks for the warning. I'll leave you ladies and gentlemen to it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2015 8:05:33 GMT -5
Yup, well, Dark's mother and brothers are adults and capable of making their own foolish choices, like forgiving an abuser. Dark has more sense and just wants to not even go there ever. Just like I walk away when people mention my mother, I'm sure his family knows to keep their mouths shut around Dark if they choose to reunite/forgive their abuser.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 13, 2015 8:10:01 GMT -5
I would think DARK a piece of shit father if he ever let his kids around that SOB. We're talking about his brothers and mother, and the issue is contact over the phone, Facebook, etc., presumably with the intent to apologize and keep tabs, the same as with Dark. The guy is severely abusive. why would he have any contact with this guy that would give him access to their children? Also, keep tabs on them? That seems a bit stalker-ish. I'm very troubled that you don't see the dangers in keeping in contact with a violent person.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 13, 2015 8:13:27 GMT -5
Virgil, its time to do a Sheldon in your quest for personal improvement. Learn how to distinguish between emotional arguments and logical ones for starters. If you are willing, watching Big Bang Theory could be enlightening. Sheldon does not naturally understand social and emotional dynamics so he learns as best he can. Sometimes the person who needs self improvement is us. FWIW. Since I seem to be raising people's blood pressure, fair enough. Thanks for the warning. I'll leave you ladies and gentlemen to it. Maybe you should stick around and learn something.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Aug 13, 2015 8:35:49 GMT -5
We're talking about his brothers and mother, and the issue is contact over the phone, Facebook, etc., presumably with the intent to apologize and keep tabs, the same as with Dark. The guy is severely abusive. why would he have any contact with this guy that would give him access to their children? Also, keep tabs on them? That seems a bit stalker-ish. I'm very troubled that you don't see the dangers in keeping in contact with a violent person. Let's do a study!! Let's reunite Dark and his stepfather, Dark can forgive him, and then we will let them get all cozy and close again and see how long it takes until his stepfather abuses either Dark or one of his daughters!! Because studies show that abusers usually abuse again, given the opportunity. I think the missing variable in this whole discussion is the very real existence of evil. Evil DOES exist. It often looks like people one should be able to trust -- doctors, members of the clergy, stepparents, etc. It's insidious that way. Sure, we can try and smother evil with love and try to forgive it, but it will still be evil -- it cannot be extinquished. Sometimes, the only option is to eliminate evil people from one's life. Love still wins -- you are no longer giving evil an opportuninty to continue to do harm, which, is a loving gesture, really. We each reach this point, if ever, on our own timetable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 8:40:20 GMT -5
And I'm OK with the threats. He needed to do what he needed to do to protect himself & his family. When people do not play nice, sometimes letting them know you might go postal is a good thing.
Suffice it to say that if Dark reasonably believed the man contacting his family members was life or morally threatening, and if he reasonably believed that the threat was the only way to prevent his step-father from contacting them, then he did what was necessary to protect his loved ones and I countenance the threat the same as you. But given the man is trying to reconnect the family on Facebook, offering apologies and excuses over the phone, and given Dark's colourful comments about him, I got the strong impression the death threat was motivated by hatred. That I can't countenance. Especially since it precludes Dark's family from potentially reconciling with the man. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Dark's threat came about because he was trying to protect his family from the man. As an adult with more power than a child, he was saying leave my family alone or you're going to have to deal with me. That's perfectly understandable to me. The only problem I have with it is that I wouldn't have wanted Dark in prison. But in the end, the stepfather has tried to contact Dark AND his siblings and Dark hasn't physically harmed him. If he's still on and off drugs, I absolutely think they shouldn't have anything to do with him. Even if he never touches a drug again and is genuinely remorseful for the rest of his life, he ought to have enough sense to understand why none of them want anything to do with him, and have enough respect to honor their wishes. That would be the honorable thing to do after all he's done, let it be about them and what they need to be ok, instead of trying to make it be about him and what he wants from them. Losing relationships is a natural consequence of being a horrible person. You started off doing so well in this thread, but I am totally against pushing for reconciliation with an abuser. If the person that was abused wants to try, that should be totally up to them, and my hat's off to the person that's willing to do that because they're a bigger person than I am. Or something. I'm all for forgiving in the sense of letting go when a person is ready and can find a way to do it, but even I won't go that far when someone has inflicted the kind of harm we're talking about here. I'm reminded of a line from a rap song..... "there's levels to this thang". Yup, I just quoted something from a rap song in a serious discussion.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 13, 2015 8:44:29 GMT -5
And also the understanding that there is no 'right' way to get past shitty things that happen in your life. If you come out at the other side a decent human being who is generally happy and contributes to society, it's working for you, and you did it right. That's like saying there's no 'right' way to design an airport. As long as the planes aren't crashing into each other and people can more or less get to where they're going to, you did it right. I don't see the problem with that, so that's actually helping to bolster happyhoix's argument.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 13, 2015 8:49:48 GMT -5
Self-reflection and self-improvement aren't necessities, but they are virtues. It behooves us all to examine whether there are steps we can take to possibly better our circumstances (including our peace of mind) and the circumstances of others. I agree, and maybe it's time for you to do just that. No Bible, no studies - just you in quiet reflection of your life and experiences.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 13, 2015 9:47:11 GMT -5
I think the missing variable in this whole discussion is the very real existence of evil. Evil DOES exist. It often looks like people one should be able to trust -- doctors, members of the clergy, stepparents, etc. It's insidious that way. Sure, we can try and smother evil with love and try to forgive it, but it will still be evil -- it cannot be extinquished. Sometimes, the only option is to eliminate evil people from one's life. ... Reply #77: You (and several others) are conflating forgiveness with reconciliation. Reconciliation is one of the possible benefits of forgiveness, but as you point out, it requires that the offender repent and agree to reconcile. This obviously doesn't always happen. Forgiveness is possible even without the prospect of reconciliation, which was Pink Cashmere's earlier point.
Forgiveness in the absence of reconciliation is not unlike "moving on". It's stricter in the sense that "moving on" doesn't always imply letting go of resentment, while genuine forgiveness does. Be careful too not to conflate resentment with reasonable self-preservation. Resentment is a form of hatred. It's the force that fills you with rage, inspires you threaten physical harm, provokes you to slander, diminishes your trust in people generally. It's not simply wanting nothing to do with an unrepentant individual, which I sense is how some people are defining it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2015 10:13:48 GMT -5
I think the missing variable in this whole discussion is the very real existence of evil. Evil DOES exist. It often looks like people one should be able to trust -- doctors, members of the clergy, stepparents, etc. It's insidious that way. Sure, we can try and smother evil with love and try to forgive it, but it will still be evil -- it cannot be extinquished. Sometimes, the only option is to eliminate evil people from one's life. ... Reply #77: You (and several others) are conflating forgiveness with reconciliation. Reconciliation is one of the possible benefits of forgiveness, but as you point out, it requires that the offender repent and agree to reconcile. This obviously doesn't always happen. Forgiveness is possible even without the prospect of reconciliation, which was Pink Cashmere's earlier point.
Forgiveness in the absence of reconciliation is not unlike "moving on". It's stricter in the sense that "moving on" doesn't always imply letting go of resentment, while genuine forgiveness does. Be careful too not to conflate resentment with reasonable self-preservation. Resentment is a form of hatred. It's the force that fills you with rage, inspires you threaten physical harm, provokes you to slander, diminishes your trust in people generally. It's not simply wanting nothing to do with an unrepentant individual, which I sense is how some people are defining it. Well, why do we keep talking about Dark reconciling with his stepfather? I think we all agree it's not necessary.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 13, 2015 10:21:27 GMT -5
What is slanderous about being truthful about the guy's history? It's not slander if it's true. You asked. He answered.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 13, 2015 11:05:52 GMT -5
Why is your way the best? Other than "the bible said so." Science says so. An objective examination of the consequences in thousands of past case studies says so. A rudimentary examination of geopolitics says so. Virtually all major world religions say so. Kant's imperative says so, if you prefer Kantian ethics. I don't have time to do this, but I think if I were to look up all your quoted (non religious) studies, what the researchers mean by 'forgiveness' is just letting go of the hurt and anger and moving on with your life. No one is suggesting it's healthy to dwell on past grievances. That will color all your interactions with the world and literally can make you sick. But there is a major difference between "letting go of your anger" and the Biblical definition of 'setting aside your selfishness for selflessness and having mercy on the offender." The first step is absolutely necessary for your own good mental health. The second part isn't necessary, and, I believe, if the person who screwed you over is unapologetic about what he did, I don't think it should be done.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 13, 2015 14:09:00 GMT -5
Amen. If my Aunts or other family members want to live in la la land and pretend my mom wasn't evil, that's fine. They didn't live my life and they could look the other way and did-many times. But trying to con me, a grown ass adult into their fantasy goes too far. Stop trying to sugarcoat her and your own failings as a member of the family.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 13, 2015 14:31:05 GMT -5
Amen. If my Aunts or other family members want to live in la la land and pretend my mom wasn't evil, that's fine. They didn't live my life and they could look the other way and did-many times. But trying to con me, a grown ass adult into their fantasy goes too far. Stop trying to sugarcoat her and your own failings as a member of the family. I'm going to be as nice as I can...holy shit, your mom thought she was prettier than you and competed with you and you think that puts you in the same category of "shitty fucking childhood" that dark had? Can you for once not make a thread about you??
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 13, 2015 14:47:11 GMT -5
Amen. If my Aunts or other family members want to live in la la land and pretend my mom wasn't evil, that's fine. They didn't live my life and they could look the other way and did-many times. But trying to con me, a grown ass adult into their fantasy goes too far. Stop trying to sugarcoat her and your own failings as a member of the family. I'm going to be as nice as I can...holy shit, your mom thought she was prettier than you and competed with you and you think that puts you in the same category of "shitty fucking childhood" that dark had? Can you for once not make a thread about you?? I don't think you tried that hard
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