Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 9:06:59 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. At some point the 'experts' divorced the concept of gender from that of sex so that 'gender' could essentially refer to whatever delusion a person fancied. Hence, while you and I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn", the politically correct response is to respect the delusion. This is because, as you've been told, 'gender' is defined by whatever delusional state of mind one finds oneself it. It doesn't matter if every last cell in your body is male. Now that Mr. Jenner has put himself on the cover of 'Vanity Fair', I'm not sure if we're still required to respect the delusion that he's a harmless victim of unwanted publicity who'd nominally live his life off in a corner somewhere. I'm sure YMAM will let us know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:07:18 GMT -5
It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes because of them, but people are free to move between boxes. Ummmm.....I don't think she did this because she wanted to clean the bathroom instead of swinging a sledgehammer. I fine with her doing this and all - but cutting off your penis seems like a drastic way to get out of mowing the lawn. In fact - I find your statement that the ONLY reason a woman is a woman is because society tells her she is more offensive than pretty much anything else I have read on this entire thread. There are physical differences, which include brain function. That doesn't mean that Caitlyn has characteristics that are generally low-occurring statistically. But to say that the only reason the rest of us live in our own gender is because we are just conforming to society is absurd. What does 'living our own gender' mean?
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 9:10:57 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. At some point the 'experts' divorced the concept of gender from that of sex so that 'gender' could essentially refer to whatever delusion a person fancied. Hence, while you and I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn", the politically correct response is to respect the delusion. This is because, as you've been told, 'gender' is defined by whatever delusional state of mind one finds oneself it. It doesn't matter if every last cell in your body is male. Now that Mr. Jenner has put himself on the cover of 'Vanity Fair', I'm not sure if we're still required to respect the delusion that he's a harmless victim of unwanted publicity who'd nominally live his life off in a corner somewhere. I'm sure YMAM will let us know. Let's say it is delusion. People are delusional about a lot of things, so just add this one to the list.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 2, 2015 9:14:23 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts. I think Caitlyn looks great. I'm from a small, hick, redneck area where a lot of people are dumb regarding things like this.Even so, I believe in respecting people and being accepting of others, even if they are completely different from you. Unless you are in that position, whether of being gay (I know that doesn't apply in this case) or feeling trapped in the wrong body or whatever, you will never completely understand or sympathize with that plight. But you can be respectful and you can wish them well and support them. You can do that instead of belittling them and saying it's absurd and not real and that you are what you are. It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes because of them, but people are free to move between boxes. so basically, only express your opinion if it's the "correct" one. Got it. Otherwise, you are just "dumb about stuff like that"
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 2, 2015 9:18:42 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. At some point the 'experts' divorced the concept of gender from that of sex so that 'gender' could essentially refer to whatever delusion a person fancied. Hence, while you and I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn", the politically correct response is to respect the delusion. This is because, as you've been told, 'gender' is defined by whatever delusional state of mind one finds oneself it. It doesn't matter if every last cell in your body is male. Now that Mr. Jenner has put himself on the cover of 'Vanity Fair', I'm not sure if we're still required to respect the delusion that he's a harmless victim of unwanted publicity who'd nominally live his life off in a corner somewhere. I'm sure YMAM will let us know. Well all I can tell you is that science and medicine are NOT on your side on this one. Of course you will have the opinion you want (just like I have the one I want), but that does not mean its factually correct and that you're immune from being called on it because it's your "opinion" and that somehow makes it sacrosanct. Or as one famous political pundit said: you're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to make up your own facts. A little medical research here on your part might be enlightening. So might some basic compassion for your fellow human being.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 9:21:43 GMT -5
She isn't.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 9:24:53 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. At some point the 'experts' divorced the concept of gender from that of sex so that 'gender' could essentially refer to whatever delusion a person fancied. Hence, while you and I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn", the politically correct response is to respect the delusion. This is because, as you've been told, 'gender' is defined by whatever delusional state of mind one finds oneself it. It doesn't matter if every last cell in your body is male. Now that Mr. Jenner has put himself on the cover of 'Vanity Fair', I'm not sure if we're still required to respect the delusion that he's a harmless victim of unwanted publicity who'd nominally live his life off in a corner somewhere. I'm sure YMAM will let us know. I didn't see Phoenix say that at any point. Please don't put words in his mouth. And that goes for everyone - don't speak for me because all of us "naysayers" have different reasons why we feel the way we do.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Jun 2, 2015 9:27:50 GMT -5
Eh, whatever. I try not to judge people and feel that everyone is free to live their lives however they want (as long as they aren't hurting/murdering people).
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 9:30:17 GMT -5
Ummmm.....I don't think she did this because she wanted to clean the bathroom instead of swinging a sledgehammer. I fine with her doing this and all - but cutting off your penis seems like a drastic way to get out of mowing the lawn. In fact - I find your statement that the ONLY reason a woman is a woman is because society tells her she is more offensive than pretty much anything else I have read on this entire thread. There are physical differences, which include brain function. That doesn't mean that Caitlyn has characteristics that are generally low-occurring statistically. But to say that the only reason the rest of us live in our own gender is because we are just conforming to society is absurd. What does 'living our own gender' mean? Great question. Maybe you can answer this question for me. If the ONLY difference between the genders is taking care of babies and cooking and liking to work on cars (or whatever) why would Caitlyn have to have massive amounts of medical intervention to become female? There must be some other differences that we are intrinsically born with - otherwise, "Bruce" would have put on a bustier, grabbed an apron and been done with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:35:31 GMT -5
My opinion is that Virgil is an ignorant person... It's so nice that we don't need facts to back up our opinions.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 9:36:26 GMT -5
thyme4change, you're killing it! I'm glad someone sees it the way I do. If gender is just a fluid, social construct, then it wouldn't matter if you had a penis or vagina. The "fluid" argument works both ways.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:37:51 GMT -5
So, you can't answer the question?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 9:38:49 GMT -5
At some point the 'experts' divorced the concept of gender from that of sex so that 'gender' could essentially refer to whatever delusion a person fancied. Hence, while you and I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn", the politically correct response is to respect the delusion. This is because, as you've been told, 'gender' is defined by whatever delusional state of mind one finds oneself it. It doesn't matter if every last cell in your body is male. Now that Mr. Jenner has put himself on the cover of 'Vanity Fair', I'm not sure if we're still required to respect the delusion that he's a harmless victim of unwanted publicity who'd nominally live his life off in a corner somewhere. I'm sure YMAM will let us know. Let's say it is delusion. People are delusional about a lot of things, so just add this one to the list. If he'd done this in private, so be it. He's a sick man off in a corner somewhere, taking steps he believes will better his life. It's between him, his family, and God. Good luck with that. What I resent is the portrayal of his delusion--a very harmful delusion, which is a fact easily proven--as glamorous. You want to prostitute your mutilated body on the cover of Vanity Fair, Mr. Jenner? You want to plug your delusion on national television? To heck with you. I'll tell you exactly how willing I am to embrace your fantasy.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 9:40:22 GMT -5
if Bruce was really a woman trapped in a man's body, would he be considered a woman winning those medals? And you can't say "no, he was a man" if gender is this fluid, malleable thing. If he believed he was a woman, then he was a woman. On the flip side, does this mean that we will now allow men who "identify" as women to compete as a woman? Can a white man identify as a black man and benefit from affirmative action? Can I identify as a socialite and quit working?
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 2, 2015 9:40:46 GMT -5
It's hard to talk about your opinions without either sounding like an a-hole, and/or sounding like you're saying that *your* opinion is the only "right' one. If I have an opinion on something, sure I feel it's 'right', but obviously that doesn't mean it's everyone's 'right'. I would have a problem with disrespect and unnecessary meanness, not differences of opinion. Just because I might disagree with someone's opinion or they way they express it doesn't mean they aren't entitled to have it.
I'm glad Caitlyn has been able to make the changes in her life she wanted to be happy. I sure as hell wouldn't even try to say I understand how she feels/felt so I am in no position to judge anything at all.
(I typed and deleted like 3 posts already... leaving it at this.)
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 9:41:53 GMT -5
Let's say it is delusion. People are delusional about a lot of things, so just add this one to the list. If he'd done this in private, so be it. He's a sick man off in a corner somewhere, taking steps he believes will better his life. It's between him, his family, and God. Good luck with that. What I resent is the portrayal of his delusion-- a very harmful delusion, which is a fact easily proven--as glamorous. You want to prostitute your mutilated body on the cover of Vanity Fair, Mr. Jenner? You want to plug your delusion on national television? To heck with you. I'll tell you exactly how willing I am to embrace your fantasy. Then your problem applies to all celebrities?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 9:42:14 GMT -5
At some point the 'experts' divorced the concept of gender from that of sex so that 'gender' could essentially refer to whatever delusion a person fancied. Hence, while you and I consider Mr. Jenner to be a sick man who mutilated his genitals, stuffed silicone in his chest, and shaved his body so that he can now pump himself full of hormones, dress up in female apparel, and call himself "Caitlyn", the politically correct response is to respect the delusion. This is because, as you've been told, 'gender' is defined by whatever delusional state of mind one finds oneself it. It doesn't matter if every last cell in your body is male. Now that Mr. Jenner has put himself on the cover of 'Vanity Fair', I'm not sure if we're still required to respect the delusion that he's a harmless victim of unwanted publicity who'd nominally live his life off in a corner somewhere. I'm sure YMAM will let us know. I didn't see Phoenix say that at any point. Please don't put words in his mouth. And that goes for everyone - don't speak for me because all of us "naysayers" have different reasons why we feel the way we do. I'm sure if Phoenix84 disagrees, he'll let me have it.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Jun 2, 2015 9:44:47 GMT -5
Transgender is a documented medical condition. There have been autopsies done on brains of trans people and their brains look like the brains of their identified gender, not their birth gender.
Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing.
There is a wealth of information out there about the gender spectrum and how humans fall on it. Not gossip sites, but actual research. For those who are confused, it would be pretty easy to read up on it.
Trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate. The assault/murder rate of trans adults is horrific. Every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months. No one wants to be trans for kicks and giggles. It's a VERY hard life.
Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:45:10 GMT -5
How is anyone else's conception of their own gender and how they go about living that concept, harmful to me?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 9:45:48 GMT -5
So, you can't answer the question? Can you? I feel like we are jumping back and forth here. He "feels" like a woman, but the only difference between men and women are assigned to us by society. So - if we are all the same, why does it "feel" different to be a woman or a man? Which is it? Are we all the same, or is there an actual difference? Again - I am not criticizing. In fact, I am trying to bolster transgender-ness by saying there is actually a difference between men and women and it isn't just lipstick and other social narratives.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 2, 2015 9:47:35 GMT -5
I might be able to look that good too if I had an army of stylists, makeup artists, professional lighting, etc. That said, in my opinion anyways, Caitlyn is more attractive as a woman than Bruce was as a man. Wonder if Kris is upset that her ex looks better than she does now? Not only that, but I think Kris is still bothered by the fact that her offer to produce the documentary series about Caitlyn's transition was dismissed as not needed. The momager strikes again, but got rebuffed this time. And when the Diane Sawyer interview was broadcast, Bruce (the name Caitlyn used at that time) was with his first two-ex-wives, watching it on TV. Kris was not invited - and apparently not welcome.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 9:47:47 GMT -5
Transgender is a documented medical condition. There have been autopsies done on brains of trans people and their brains look like the brains of their identified gender, not their birth gender.Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing. There is a wealth of information out there about the gender spectrum and how humans fall on it. Not gossip sites, but actual research. For those who are confused, it would be pretty easy to read up on it. Trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate. The assault/murder rate of trans adults is horrific. Every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months. No one wants to be trans for kicks and giggles. It's a VERY hard life. Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior. An actual physical difference that isn't just 'society' creating 'differences.'
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 2, 2015 9:50:04 GMT -5
I can understand the transformation issue with gender identity. My question is why doe Caitlyn decide to be the prettiest female out there? Why would you go public so soon, on a cover of a magazine? How the heck did the bruising and inflamation clear up so quickly?I would think there might be deeper issues there, then gender identity. Not all of the actual physical gender transformation surgery is done yet. What you are seeing is a combination of female hormone therapy, male hormone suppression therapy, some lesser surgery already done (the nose, Adam's apple) and of course, good old Photoshop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 9:50:09 GMT -5
I wasn't the one who suggested there was some kind of biological dictate on what living ones gender should look like... You were. So, you explain it.
That cover is nothing but a social narrative, lol. Right down to the airbrushing. If boobs were just a biological and not social issue, we wouldn't need laws to protect breastfeeding mothers.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 9:51:30 GMT -5
Transgender is a documented medical condition. There have been autopsies done on brains of trans people and their brains look like the brains of their identified gender, not their birth gender.Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing. There is a wealth of information out there about the gender spectrum and how humans fall on it. Not gossip sites, but actual research. For those who are confused, it would be pretty easy to read up on it. Trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate. The assault/murder rate of trans adults is horrific. Every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months. No one wants to be trans for kicks and giggles. It's a VERY hard life. Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior. An actual physical difference that isn't just 'society' creating 'differences.' EXACTLY!!!! Why is it so hard to admit that the concept of male/female is more than just what society tells us it is?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 9:51:45 GMT -5
If he'd done this in private, so be it. He's a sick man off in a corner somewhere, taking steps he believes will better his life. It's between him, his family, and God. Good luck with that. What I resent is the portrayal of his delusion-- a very harmful delusion, which is a fact easily proven--as glamorous. You want to prostitute your mutilated body on the cover of Vanity Fair, Mr. Jenner? You want to plug your delusion on national television? To heck with you. I'll tell you exactly how willing I am to embrace your fantasy. Then your problem applies to all celebrities? It would apply just as well to celebrities "coming out of the closet", I suppose. My attitude towards celebrities is typically indifference. I only take exception when their antics glorify ideas that shouldn't be glorified, and even then, celebrity hijinks are rarely on my radar. I see them on magazine stands, after they've divorced for the sixth time, or wrapped their car around a tree, or sued their ex-lover, and I'm guessing Mr. Jenner will be sitting there in his lingerie the next time I'm at the counter.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 9:52:19 GMT -5
Transgender is a documented medical condition. There have been autopsies done on brains of trans people and their brains look like the brains of their identified gender, not their birth gender. Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing. There is a wealth of information out there about the gender spectrum and how humans fall on it. Not gossip sites, but actual research. For those who are confused, it would be pretty easy to read up on it. Trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate. The assault/murder rate of trans adults is horrific. Every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months. No one wants to be trans for kicks and giggles. It's a VERY hard life. Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior. I can't like this post enough.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 9:52:24 GMT -5
Since he likes women, does that mean he is now a lesbian? I'm so confused by all of this...I'm just thankful that this isn't something I have to deal with in real life. I don't think I could handle it if my daughter suddenly decided she was a he...luckily, she is as girly as they come so I think I'm safe.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 9:54:30 GMT -5
An actual physical difference that isn't just 'society' creating 'differences.' EXACTLY!!!! Why is it so hard to admit that the concept of male/female is more than just what society tells us it is? I will agree with that all day long, but didn't you say on page two that people transitioning genders bothers you on some level? edited to correct info.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 9:56:59 GMT -5
Then your problem applies to all celebrities? It would apply just as well to celebrities "coming out of the closet", I suppose. My attitude towards celebrities is typically indifference. I only take exception when their antics glorify ideas that shouldn't be glorified, and even then, celebrity hijinks are rarely on my radar. I see them on magazine stands, after they've divorced for the sixth time, or wrapped their car around a tree, or sued their ex-lover, and I'm guessing Mr. Jenner will be sitting there in his lingerie the next time I'm at the counter. Oh boy
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