msventoux
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Post by msventoux on Jun 1, 2015 22:49:14 GMT -5
I might be able to look that good too if I had an army of stylists, makeup artists, professional lighting, etc. That said, in my opinion anyways, Caitlyn is more attractive as a woman than Bruce was as a man. Wonder if Kris is upset that her ex looks better than she does now?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 1, 2015 22:58:24 GMT -5
Anyone notice 'Caitlyn' is pronouned with a hard 'K' like all the Kardashian women's first names.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 1, 2015 23:00:27 GMT -5
I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not. If I proclaim myself a dog, and get a tail surgically put on and start barking and make society call me a dog, does that really make me a dog?
Hypothetical question, would you be okay dating, marrying, or having sex with someone who was born of the same sex? I'm sure some would be okay with it, but I imagine a great many would NOT be okay with it.
Ultimately though, it's a free country, I don't really care what people do as long as it's not illegal. I don't have a dog in the fight. Best of luck to Mr. Jenner, I guess if it makes him feel better about himself, then I guess it was worth it.
Okay Phoenix84 I'm NOT trying to pick a fight with you (!) - really I'm not . But when you say "I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not" are you saying this about Caitlyn? [it's 'they're,' BTW]. What she's telling the world loud and clear is that she is NOT a man. Is that okay or not okay with you because she's coming out and proclaiming who she really is? She is a woman who for whatever reason happened to have been born into a man's body. That is her life experience and we should not judge her because it is not our life experience. And science and medicine are on her side in her assertions.
I agree that there are many things I don't think or feel or believe or do that others are fine with thinking and feeling and believing and doing. That doesn't make me right and them wrong. I agree that if something someone is doing is not illegal and not hurting others we should just leave them alone. Different strokes for different folks and all . . .
I'm not looking for a lengthy debate myself. Yes I am saying this about "Caitlyen" aka Bruce.
I'm saying in my view, he is a man. I have the right to think as such, and just as he's got the right to do whatever he wants with his body. As I said, it's nothing personal, and I don't have a dog in the fight.
I'm not sure what "science and medicine" have to do with it. I thought the fundamental idea for people who think like you do is that gender is based on "gender identity" not the physical definition of a man or woman.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Jun 1, 2015 23:00:44 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. I'm sure this is covered in the previous pages I haven't gotten to yet.... but... how much have you actually read into this stuff? Many people who feel like they are trapped in the wrong body end up killing themselves because of lack of acceptance and fear/guilt. They absolutely 100% identify with an alternate gender. Just because YOU don't get it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 1, 2015 23:24:32 GMT -5
I haven't been following this at all - and actually don't care what gender Bruce/Caitlyn is, nor really any other information about that whole narcissistic family, but, now that everyone is talking about it...When did Bruce decide he was really a woman? Is this really something you decide when you are in your 60's and have had multiple lives and multiple wives? I really don't have a problem with it - just seems odd timing. Who knows - maybe in 20 years I will wake up and decide I have always been a different person.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 23:37:43 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with thinking people who change sex are weird or odd, if you also accept that they have the right to be who they want to be. So what if MJ or Phoenix don't agree with or don't understand Caitlyn Jenner's choices. They both accepted her right to make that choice. I'm with MJ and Phoenix on this. I don't believe that just because you claim to be a woman you are suddenly a woman. Genetically you are still a male and no amount of surgery can change that i identify as a hot, 25 year old...that doesn't mean I am one That said, I don't give a shit what anyone else does as long as it doesn't impact me. A genetic man trying to use a woman's batheoom does impact me and I would flip the fuck out. Why? Do you expect him to vault over the stall door and have his way with you? You share public bathrooms with lesbians all the time. How many times have you been attacked?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 23:54:13 GMT -5
If Miss Canada, who is a genetic man, walked into the bathroom, you'd flip the fuck out?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 4:56:11 GMT -5
I'm with MJ and Phoenix on this. I don't believe that just because you claim to be a woman you are suddenly a woman. Genetically you are still a male and no amount of surgery can change that i identify as a hot, 25 year old...that doesn't mean I am one That said, I don't give a shit what anyone else does as long as it doesn't impact me. A genetic man trying to use a woman's batheoom does impact me and I would flip the fuck out. Why? Do you expect him to vault over the stall door and have his way with you? You share public bathrooms with lesbians all the time. How many times have you been attacked?
Then why have separate bathrooms for men or women to begin with? A man doesn't belong in a woman's bathroom.
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truthbound
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Post by truthbound on Jun 2, 2015 5:10:12 GMT -5
That is an amazing photo. I wish I was that photogenic. Wow. With the same Photoshop you could be just as photogenic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 5:41:15 GMT -5
And I don't need anyone trying to "convince" me that I just need more education, etc. We all don't have to like everything and everyone, nor is there a "right" and "wrong" opinion on something. We all have to be respectful and tolerant - that's it. And it works both ways. Then shouldn't we (as in a collective "we" society), let Bruce (or Caitlyn if that's the name s/he chooses to be known by) - go on with his life and life choices?
This was a long and arduous decision for Bruce to make - and it wasn't made lightly. Bruce has lived with the struggle most of his (or her) life - first as a medal-wining Olympian and then husband/father. He had an "image" to uphold for the public but the person he (or she) is, was living a lie in his heart & being.
Being respectful & tolerant is a trait that I wish more humans were capable of. I think we (again, as a general "we") should let Bruce (soon to be Caitlyn) go on with his life and his decision of how he wants to live it for HIM.
It's not for me to judge, or anyone else to judge - he isn't doing something illegal or putting someone else in harm's way.
Hopefully his family will respect his decision (which most if not all seem to have), even though it's been an emotional roller-coaster for them as well.
May they all find peace & move on. Hopefully once all is said and done, the media will also move on and find some new "celebrity dirt" to get everyone worked up about. If you want to be respectful, then call Caitlyn by her name and don't call her Bruce. And don't refer to her as 'he'.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 2, 2015 6:13:28 GMT -5
Funny enough I was recently in the airport bathroom and heard some woman hollering about a guy using the women's bathroom. I was in the stall so didn't see. Frankly, where I live a LOT of women look like men so she could have been mistaken.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 6:33:33 GMT -5
I won't pretend to understand all the personal emotions involved with something like this but good for her. If nothing else, I hope it inspires some acceptance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 7:51:23 GMT -5
We have two transgenders who work here. I have no clue at what stage of the surgery they are or if they're still packing a penis, but they use the women's bathroom. I could really care less. Of course, I could care less if a non-transgender man was in there either. The squatting women around here probably pee on the seat more than they would.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 7:58:04 GMT -5
Maybe it is time we do away with the cattle style bathrooms, and start transitioning to little rooms that we can each have to ourselves. I'm sick of smelling other people's poop.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 7:58:53 GMT -5
For me, as long as I don't see a penis in the ladies room, I'm good. Do what you gotta do.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 8:02:57 GMT -5
Do you think being a woman on the inside helped her win the Olympic Medals?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 8:10:58 GMT -5
if Bruce was really a woman trapped in a man's body, would he be considered a woman winning those medals? And you can't say "no, he was a man" if gender is this fluid, malleable thing. If he believed he was a woman, then he was a woman.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 8:30:03 GMT -5
You need to look at the definition of fluid again.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 8:37:07 GMT -5
fluid [floo-id]
adjective 2. pertaining to a substance that easily changes its shape; capable of flowing. 3. consisting of or pertaining to fluids. 4. changing readily; shifting; not fixed, stable, or rigid
okay, and what about the definition was supposed to stand out for me?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 8:45:08 GMT -5
So...after seeing this Vanity Fair cover in every imaginable spot - here, TV, half the websites - facebook, etc. I have decided I don't really enjoy seeing women in lingerie. And, I really don't want to see a 60-something woman in lingerie, no matter how photo-shopped. Would it have been a tragedy to put her in a little tennis skirt or something?
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Jun 2, 2015 8:45:36 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts.
I think Caitlyn looks great.
I'm from a small, hick, redneck area where a lot of people are dumb regarding things like this.
Even so, I believe in respecting people and being accepting of others, even if they are completely different from you.
Unless you are in that position, whether of being gay (I know that doesn't apply in this case) or feeling trapped in the wrong body or whatever, you will never completely understand or sympathize with that plight.
But you can be respectful and you can wish them well and support them.
You can do that instead of belittling them and saying it's absurd and not real and that you are what you are.
It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes because of them, but people are free to move between boxes.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 8:47:56 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts. I think Caitlyn looks great. I'm from a small, hick, redneck area where a lot of people are dumb regarding things like this. Even so, I believe in respecting people and being accepting of others, even if they are completely different from you. Unless you are in that position, whether of being gay (I know that doesn't apply in this case) or feeling trapped in the wrong body or whatever, you will never completely understand or sympathize with that plight. But you can be respectful and you can wish them well and support them. You can do that instead of belittling them and saying it's absurd and not real and that you are what you are. It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes because of them, but people are free to move between boxes. so basically, only express your opinion if it's the "correct" one. Got it.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 2, 2015 8:50:26 GMT -5
Interesting description. 'it'. I know men do use this term for an attractive woman, but in this context, I think one should use the term, him, or her.........it sounds a little wrong in this situation, although "it" in the old context is verboten these days, too. Does it also depend as to before or after you know she was a he? Reminds me of Two and a half men where Charlie and Alan were discussing Charlie's run in with a .......
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Jun 2, 2015 8:54:26 GMT -5
Here are my thoughts. I think Caitlyn looks great. I'm from a small, hick, redneck area where a lot of people are dumb regarding things like this. Even so, I believe in respecting people and being accepting of others, even if they are completely different from you. Unless you are in that position, whether of being gay (I know that doesn't apply in this case) or feeling trapped in the wrong body or whatever, you will never completely understand or sympathize with that plight. But you can be respectful and you can wish them well and support them. You can do that instead of belittling them and saying it's absurd and not real and that you are what you are. It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes because of them, but people are free to move between boxes. so basically, only express your opinion if it's the "correct" one. Got it. You can express your opinion without belittling the person. "I don't get it, but I hope she is happy." "It's not how I would live my life, but good luck to her."
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 2, 2015 8:57:55 GMT -5
It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes because of them, but people are free to move between boxes. Ummmm.....I don't think she did this because she wanted to clean the bathroom instead of swinging a sledgehammer. I fine with her doing this and all - but cutting off your penis seems like a drastic way to get out of mowing the lawn. In fact - I find your statement that the ONLY reason a woman is a woman is because society tells her she is more offensive than pretty much anything else I have read on this entire thread. There are physical differences, which include brain function. That doesn't mean that Caitlyn has characteristics that are generally low-occurring statistically. But to say that the only reason the rest of us live in our own gender is because we are just conforming to society is absurd.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 8:58:38 GMT -5
yes, it's a victory to the affected person but it just opens up more questions and possible implications regarding the future of society and human life in general. That's what's happening in my brain anyway. This is WAAAAAAY beyond the separate bathrooms issue for me. Again, this is my OPINION/PERSPECTIVE.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 9:00:47 GMT -5
Maybe we should see how Caitlyn does on American Ninja Warrior and use that to decide if she is a man or woman?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 9:01:33 GMT -5
It's like words - some person arbitrarily decided that the word "couch" means a big comfy place where you sit. But what if "couch" was really the green stuff on the ground instead of "grass." Someone decided that a "man" has to drink beer and mow the grass and swing sledgehammers or whatever, and women have to cook and clean and raise babies. These are all social constructs and we place people into boxes In fact - I find your statement that the ONLY reason a woman is a woman is because society tells her she is more offensive than pretty much anything else I have read on this entire thread. There are physical differences, which include brain function. That doesn't mean that Caitlyn has characteristics that are generally low-occurring statistically. But to say that the only reason the rest of us live in our own gender is because we are just conforming to society is absurd.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jun 2, 2015 9:03:46 GMT -5
Maybe it is time we do away with the cattle style bathrooms, and start transitioning to little rooms that we can each have to ourselves. I'm sick of smelling other people's poop. I think the stench would actually linger a bit longer in a closed in room. Be careful what you wish for.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 2, 2015 9:07:01 GMT -5
I can understand the transformation issue with gender identity.
My question is why doe Caitlyn decide to be the prettiest female out there? Why would you go public so soon, on a cover of a magazine? How the heck did the bruising and inflamation clear up so quickly? I would think there might be deeper issues there, then gender identity.
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