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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 19:33:20 GMT -5
Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not. If I proclaim myself a dog, and get a tail surgically put on and start barking and make society call me a dog, does that really make me a dog?
Hypothetical question, would you be okay dating, marrying, or having sex with someone who was born of the same sex? I'm sure some would be okay with it, but I imagine a great many would NOT be okay with it.
Ultimately though, it's a free country, I don't really care what people do as long as it's not illegal. I don't have a dog in the fight. Best of luck to Mr. Jenner.
The stuff that makes a dog a dog are in the mother dog working at what a mother dog does when it helps to form a puppy. That stuff wasn't in your mom. The stuff that makes a male or a female are both present in a woman gestating a baby. You know that stuff can get messed up. How do you know it doesnt get messed up in this way?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 19:40:21 GMT -5
Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not. If I proclaim myself a dog, and get a tail surgically put on and start barking and make society call me a dog, does that really make me a dog?
Hypothetical question, would you be okay dating, marrying, or having sex with someone who was born of the same sex? I'm sure some would be okay with it, but I imagine a great many would NOT be okay with it.
Ultimately though, it's a free country, I don't really care what people do as long as it's not illegal. I don't have a dog in the fight. Best of luck to Mr. Jenner, I guess if it makes him feel better about himself, then I guess it was a positive outcome.
Yes, I would. You don't have a dog in this fight? Good thing, too, seeing as how you're having some difficulty with dogs vs. humans. One of these things is not like the other.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 19:46:54 GMT -5
Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not. If I proclaim myself a dog, and get a tail surgically put on and start barking and make society call me a dog, does that really make me a dog?
Hypothetical question, would you be okay dating, marrying, or having sex with someone who was born of the same sex? I'm sure some would be okay with it, but I imagine a great many would NOT be okay with it.
Ultimately though, it's a free country, I don't really care what people do as long as it's not illegal. I don't have a dog in the fight. Best of luck to Mr. Jenner, I guess if it makes him feel better about himself, then I guess it was worth it.
Okay Phoenix84 I'm NOT trying to pick a fight with you (!) - really I'm not . But when you say "I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not" are you saying this about Caitlyn? [it's 'they're,' BTW]. What she's telling the world loud and clear is that she is NOT a man. Is that okay or not okay with you because she's coming out and proclaiming who she really is? She is a woman who for whatever reason happened to have been born into a man's body. That is her life experience and we should not judge her because it is not our life experience. And science and medicine are on her side in her assertions.
I agree that there are many things I don't think or feel or believe or do that others are fine with thinking and feeling and believing and doing. That doesn't make me right and them wrong. I agree that if something someone is doing is not illegal and not hurting others we should just leave them alone. Different strokes for different folks and all . . .
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 19:47:33 GMT -5
What is a 'female' Pheonix? What is a 'male'. When you proclaim yourself as one, does it have only to do with a penis or lack there of? Exactly. There is soooooooo much more to it . . . .
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 19:48:11 GMT -5
I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not. If I proclaim myself a dog, and get a tail surgically put on and start barking and make society call me a dog, does that really make me a dog?
Hypothetical question, would you be okay dating, marrying, or having sex with someone who was born of the same sex? I'm sure some would be okay with it, but I imagine a great many would NOT be okay with it.
Ultimately though, it's a free country, I don't really care what people do as long as it's not illegal. I don't have a dog in the fight. Best of luck to Mr. Jenner.
The stuff that makes a dog a dog are in the mother dog working at what a mother dog does when it helps to form a puppy. That stuff wasn't in your mom. The stuff that makes a male or a female are both present in a woman gestating a baby. You know that stuff can get messed up. How do you know it doesnt get messed up in this way? Exactly . Sometimes we are very quick to judge based on cultural norms without understanding there is a much bigger picture. We often make the mistake of assuming our own personal, cherished cultural norms are correct and that everyone else who is not like us is somehow wrong or faulty .
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 1, 2015 19:53:17 GMT -5
That's probably the most absurd comment made in this thread so far.
You clearly don't get it - or don't care to do any research to educate yourself. It's not something someone just suddenly wakes up & decides to do on a whim.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 1, 2015 20:04:47 GMT -5
I'm a woman. I identify as a woman and I live as a woman. I've tried to imagine what it would be like to wake up in the morning, go into the bathroom to brush my teeth, and look into the mirror only to see a man staring back at me. That's what these people experience. If you can put yourself into that position, it might be a bit easier to understand.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:06:34 GMT -5
I find it bizarre but as it doesn't impact me in any way. I really don't care One thing I have to say is that I want his hair! Something I never said about a man befofe :-p Same, except for the hair comment. I'm sorry, I just can't with him/her or any of the Kardashians. I am happy that people have the rights to these surgeries and whatnot but I can't say it doesn't bother me on some level. And frankly IDGAF what people think of me for making that statement.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:11:27 GMT -5
And I don't need anyone trying to "convince" me that I just need more education, etc. We all don't have to like everything and everyone, nor is there a "right" and "wrong" opinion on something. We all have to be respectful and tolerant - that's it. And it works both ways.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:21:49 GMT -5
I can tolerate people's opinions. Even if those opinions aren't grounded in fact. So long as people don't attempt to use those opinions as basis to deny others their rights.
Respect is another issue though. I don't have to respect anyone for their opinions.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:24:22 GMT -5
I meant respectful and tolerant of people - you don't have to tolerate or respect my or anyone else's opinion. Just realize that all of our opinions are equally valid/invalid and aren't facts/law.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:29:07 GMT -5
I meant respectful and tolerant of people - you don't have to tolerate or respect my or anyone else's opinion. Just realize that all of our opinions are equally valid/invalid and aren't facts/law. I don't see anything wrong with thinking people who change sex are weird or odd, if you also accept that they have the right to be who they want to be. So what if MJ or Phoenix don't agree with or don't understand Caitlyn Jenner's choices. They both accepted her right to make that choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:29:20 GMT -5
Are opinions that ignore facts equally valid to opinions that account for facts though ?
This isn't just a question isolated to this issue. I deal often with people expressing their opinions which they expect to be respected, but which ignore fact.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:31:59 GMT -5
But do I have to respect Pheonix's opinion that changing ones body to reflect one's inner concept of one's gender is equal to turning oneself into a dog...
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:33:21 GMT -5
Are opinions that ignore facts equally valid to opinions that account for facts though ? This isn't just a question isolated to this issue. I deal often with people expressing their opinions which they expect to be respected, but which ignore fact. For me, opinions are basically a person's perspective and can't be right or wrong.... It can be ill-informed though
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:34:33 GMT -5
But do I have to respect Pheonix's opinion that changing ones body to reflect one's inner concept of one's gender is equal to turning oneself into a dog... Ill-informed.... I agree with you on that.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 1, 2015 20:49:27 GMT -5
I'd hit it .
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 20:53:50 GMT -5
Vernacular, commonly used by males, meaning, "I would like to have sexual relations with that female.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:54:27 GMT -5
Shockingly, I'm not surprised.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:55:04 GMT -5
Vernacular, commonly used by males, meaning, "I would like to have sexual relations with that female. What are we, 80?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 20:58:18 GMT -5
Vernacular, commonly used by males, meaning, "I would like to have sexual relations with that female. I also use that phrase referring to men. Although I'm more likely to say "he can get it".
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 1, 2015 21:00:59 GMT -5
You'd hit the previously mentioned dog if you could.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 1, 2015 21:18:55 GMT -5
And I don't need anyone trying to "convince" me that I just need more education, etc. We all don't have to like everything and everyone, nor is there a "right" and "wrong" opinion on something. We all have to be respectful and tolerant - that's it. And it works both ways. Then shouldn't we (as in a collective "we" society), let Bruce (or Caitlyn if that's the name s/he chooses to be known by) - go on with his life and life choices?
This was a long and arduous decision for Bruce to make - and it wasn't made lightly. Bruce has lived with the struggle most of his (or her) life - first as a medal-wining Olympian and then husband/father. He had an "image" to uphold for the public but the person he (or she) is, was living a lie in his heart & being.
Being respectful & tolerant is a trait that I wish more humans were capable of. I think we (again, as a general "we") should let Bruce (soon to be Caitlyn) go on with his life and his decision of how he wants to live it for HIM.
It's not for me to judge, or anyone else to judge - he isn't doing something illegal or putting someone else in harm's way.
Hopefully his family will respect his decision (which most if not all seem to have), even though it's been an emotional roller-coaster for them as well.
May they all find peace & move on. Hopefully once all is said and done, the media will also move on and find some new "celebrity dirt" to get everyone worked up about.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 1, 2015 21:31:33 GMT -5
The problem often arises that those who proclaim that they are tolerant and accepting, are only tolerant and accepting of people with same views.
For people of different views they don't offer the same curtesy
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 21:38:28 GMT -5
It's good that (s)he has a way to be him/herself now, and I'm not trying to take that from him. I have a female cousin that I think is transitioning to male. She chose a male name (A) she wants to be called by. Some of us call her that, some of us call her by her given name (O). She will always be O to me. She's the same wonderful and smart person she has always been, and that identity for me is attached to her given name. I've just avoided calling her by name so as to not offend her or make me uncomfortable, lol.
I'm not trying to stand in the way of people switching gender and making physical transitions - I just think it's weird. I think a lot of things people do are weird though.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 21:38:56 GMT -5
The problem often arises that those who proclaim that they are tolerant and accepting, are only tolerant and accepting of people with same views. For people of different views they don't offer the same curtesy Yeah that was my whole point
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 1, 2015 21:43:13 GMT -5
I meant respectful and tolerant of people - you don't have to tolerate or respect my or anyone else's opinion. Just realize that all of our opinions are equally valid/invalid and aren't facts/law. I don't see anything wrong with thinking people who change sex are weird or odd, if you also accept that they have the right to be who they want to be. So what if MJ or Phoenix don't agree with or don't understand Caitlyn Jenner's choices. They both accepted her right to make that choice. I'm with MJ and Phoenix on this. I don't believe that just because you claim to be a woman you are suddenly a woman. Genetically you are still a male and no amount of surgery can change that i identify as a hot, 25 year old...that doesn't mean I am one That said, I don't give a shit what anyone else does as long as it doesn't impact me. A genetic man trying to use a woman's batheoom does impact me and I would flip the fuck out.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 1, 2015 21:55:33 GMT -5
I would just like to clarify my position (and these are my beliefs, not facts)... I believe that gender is a social construct and that it exists for a reason. Maybe that reason was to oppress women and empower men, but I think that's changing now. I don't see a problem with women being seen as more compassionate, soft, and nurturing and men being seen as the more hard protectors. It doesn't mean males and females can't have all those traits, just that they may be stronger/weaker for each gender. They complement one another. What we're attracted to is largely related to our innate desire to reproduce. But now with technology and science, I see us getting to the point where there is no need for gender, sexual preference or intercourse because we could reproduce without it.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 1, 2015 22:24:00 GMT -5
If this person walked into the ladies' room would you give them a second look or question why they're there without seeing the "before" picture? Or the second person?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 22:43:45 GMT -5
That is an amazing photo. I wish I was that photogenic. Wow. You are with Photoshop. We all are. I saw part of the photo shoot on TV. Still looked damn good.
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