Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jun 15, 2015 22:33:49 GMT -5
How do people tell she is transgender when she is walking down the street?
If she's like my friend a big part of it is that she's just much larger than women usually are. My friend is at least 6'3" and has hands like a catcher's mitt, so it's very tough for her to find flattering clothes and her size alone attracts scrutiny.
Which makes the case for addressing these issues prior to puberty. Can you imagine if your friends parents had known and been supportive of a transition at an earlier time?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 15, 2015 22:44:11 GMT -5
I'm removed the census of who's used what terms in the original post and the 90 times it's quoted, leaving only the final two sentences. In case you hadn't noticed, these two sentences summarize the content of the census, which I constructed in 5 minutes using the search box. There's nothing intellectually dishonest about it. Specifically: the majority of the invective against transgendered individuals in this thread comes from the individuals listed in the census, in the form of parodies of straw man arguments nobody has made. The only posts in this thread where the epithets you're condemning appear are your posts. You're stirring up more crap than your opponents. For Pete's sake.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 15, 2015 22:45:59 GMT -5
He won't be. Statistically, he'll end up worse off mentally and emotionally than before the surgery. There are two sides in this thread. One side cares about this reality. The other side dismisses it because what Bruce Jenner feels in his heart of hearts can't be wrong and is worthy of support. Biological reality versus comfortable delusion. Logic versus emotion. Personally I cannot love an individual by ignoring or disregarding an unpalatable reality. It's too high a price to pay for empathy. Obviously not everyone agrees. ...And yet, people continue to do what makes sense for them. It's almost like they don't care what you think! I wish people cared less what I thought. Maybe the thread wouldn't go supernova when I posted a simple census of who's used which terms.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 16, 2015 1:22:30 GMT -5
If it makes you feel better, I find myself quite able to dismiss you. No, don't thank me. It's really not necessary. It's my pleasure!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 5:04:55 GMT -5
He won't be. Statistically, he'll end up worse off mentally and emotionally than before the surgery. There are two sides in this thread. One side cares about this reality. The other side dismisses it because what Bruce Jenner feels in his heart of hearts can't be wrong and is worthy of support. Biological reality versus comfortable delusion. Logic versus emotion. Personally I cannot love an individual by ignoring or disregarding an unpalatable reality. It's too high a price to pay for empathy. Obviously not everyone agrees. ...And yet, people continue to do what makes sense for them. It's almost like they don't care what you think! There was a study by John Hopkins that I linked earlier that said that changing gender doesn't fix any of the psychological problems. They stay. The people are glad they changed gender, but still have all kinds of mental problems. It is why John Hopkins quit doing sex change operations.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 16, 2015 6:56:53 GMT -5
If it makes you feel better, I find myself quite able to dismiss you. No, don't thank me. It's really not necessary. It's my pleasure! Oooo, harsh! I don't find myself dismissing Virgil. I understand he and I come from very different places. That's not necessarily bad, IMO. Without differing opinions and differing outlooks the world would be a very boring place. My problem, with regard to this particular discussion (and the reason I've remained pretty reticent) is the unarguable fact that the vast majority of us don't have a clue what people like Ms. Jenner have undergone; nor, do we understand with clarity what they're undergoing. There are a couple of people posting in this thread who have a much better handle on this matter than I shall ever have, no matter how many books/articles I read. I know this. Therefore, I'm very hesitant to opine on what's right for those who find themselves in the same situation as Ms. Jenner has had to live with.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 16, 2015 7:00:51 GMT -5
Maybe the thread wouldn't go supernova when I posted a simple census of who's used which terms. The issue wasn't that you posted a simple census, it's that you flat out mischaracterized what the census revealed. And now you're pouting about being called on your creative interpretation.
It's hard to tell if you are rolling your eyes because you're confused at how your nose has suddenly grown or because your flaming pants are making you hot.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2015 9:15:39 GMT -5
It's not the terms themselves but how they are used. I clearly indicated how the terms are used. Read this thread from start to finish. At least 20% of it is devoted to elaborating on the social ills plaguing transgendered individuals, e.g. how they "struggle so much that it makes their lives a living hell" (Weltz), how "trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate" (Formerly SK), and how "every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months" (Formerly SK). Another 40% of it is replete with comments like (this is just the barest sampling): But you know what REALLY makes it suck? It’s not the condition itself, it’s hearing every.single.day of your life that a large portion of the people you interact with (or love) consider you freakish, sinful, dramatic, or much more hurtful adjectives. (Firebird) What compounds this pain is the fact that most of the people spouting this hurtful crap have NO idea what they’re talking about, at all. They’ve done not one minute of research on it, they’ve just written off the whole idea because it’s “disturbing” or “just weird.” It's basically having your humanity written off because people don't understand. (Firebird) As hurtful as Virgil's words have been, I've seen much, much worse on other boards. Freak. Subhuman. An abomination. An affront against God. Psycho. Is in any wonder they have higher rates of anxiety, depression and suicide? It must be hell just to go outside, not knowing what kind of hate they'll come up against that day. (Weltz) Not trying to put words in anybody's mouth, but there's a huge difference between "I don't understand this, don't believe that it agrees with my religious beliefs and don't like it" and "this disgusting freak is mutilating himself!" (Milee) The problems begin when those same persons refuse to see variations in human gender as merely that - variations - and label persons who are not like them and do not fit their societal norms as (take your pick) bad/demented/evil/sick/delusional/dangerous/disgusting etc etc etc etc. (kittensaver) I don't know if it's all semantics, but I hear a lot of disdain and disgust coming from Virgil, but not really hatred. (whoisjohngalt) Even if being transgender is against one's Christian belief, wouldn't Jesus want us to be kind to the transgendered person instead of call them delusional and talk about them like s/he was a disgusting thing instead of a person? (Milee) Being surrounded by hundreds of people - some even in your own family - who publicly declare you disgusting and treat you as subhuman has to be incredibly hurtful no matter how strong you are and what other support you have. (Milee) Some people seem to think that they can call people sick, degenerate, delusional, fools, icky, immoral, revolting.... and somehow they don't think they are insulting anyone? (oped) So constantly saying it's immoral, not the way God created Jenner etc is what's raising the hairs on the back of (some) people's necks. (SL) What I was endeavouring to point out is that the descriptors "freakish", "sinful", "dramatic", "disturbing", "weird", "subhuman", "abomination", "affront against God", "psycho", "disgusting", "bad", "demented", "evil", "degenerate", "icky", "immoral", "revolting", "not the way God created Jenner", and many, many more appear exclusively in pro-Jenner posts in the context of "what other people think" of transgendered people. Add to this proclamations that "you", a transgendered individual, are faced with "a large portion of the people you interact with (or love) consider[ing] you freakish, sinful, dramatic", "basically having your humanity written off", facing "hell just to go outside", "being surrounded by hundreds of people - some even in your own family - who publicly declare you disgusting and treat you as subhuman", being "talk[ed] about like [...] a disgusting thing instead of a person", etc., etc. These appear only in pro-Jenner posts in the context of what transgendered people face in daily life. I'm not sure whether to find it sad, bewildering, or amusing, therefore, that my characterization of Mr. Jenner as sick (as in: delusional, mentally ill) has inspired such rank ire, seeing as easily 90% of the muck being flung at transgendered people in this thread has been flung in the form of "this is what the world thinks of you" by the people who putatively support him. What's truly ironic is that these epithets haven't been so much as whispered by the anti-Jenner cohort in the thread. You've collectively flung so much muck by proxy that the "I can't believe all the hurtful things people are saying" comments in the latter part of the thread more or less exclusively refer to the hurtful things you earlier said other people say. It just... boggles the mind, is all.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 9:24:35 GMT -5
a lot of you are looking at what Virgil is saying/doing and trying to expand it to include everyone that doesn't 100% approve, as if to say that's how the majority of people who don't agree feel. That IMO is extremely unfair. Extremists in any type of ideology or viewpoint on an issue are usually the outliers. Virgil was right in that maybe you shouldn't focus on him so much in this conversation, as he clearly only represents himself - you might as well argue with a brick wall. Instead maybe focus on the rest of us who aren't so staunch in our views on this (yes, midjd, I agree with your response earlier ). Or have we already all been painted with the same brush?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 9:38:08 GMT -5
You may be able to play that game with other people Virgil, but we are smarter than your average bear. We know exactly what we are about, and what you are about. Your ability to use subterfuge and misdirection to try to strengthen your position won't work here...
It boggles my mind that you would think it would...
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 16, 2015 9:39:30 GMT -5
Time to let this thread die.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2015 9:44:10 GMT -5
I'd be happy with posters respecting what I have and haven't said.
I've called Mr. Jenner (and Mr. Jenner only) foolish, deluded, irrational, and sick (i.e. mentally ill), and clearly explained my reasoning behind each. I've characterized his surgery as self-mutilation. I've characterized his glamourizing his surgery as dangerous.
That's the sum of my arguments.
Everything else is either MJ's, phoenix', or hoops' passive handwringing, or part of the 90%.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 16, 2015 9:49:10 GMT -5
The idea that I am flinging muck at transgendered people by the process of my quoting things that I have heard others said is pretty silly. If a witness in a court case testified that she heard a person say "n_____", does the fact that the witness said the word "n_____" indicate the witness herself is a racist? Even small children understand the difference between a person merely quoting or reporting on what others have said versus saying a thing itself.
Not sure if it's , funny or just a sign of extreme narcissism that Virgil would assume that any time I post about things I have heard or read others call transgendered people that I must be referring to him in particular. So I'll go ahead and state the obvious since he is apparently struggling with the idea that he is not the only source of information on this subject - I have a friend that has transitioned from male to female and have heard her stories about her experiences. I read extensively not only daily publications but internet postings and publications. I have a wide circle of friends of various backgrounds and with whom I discuss current events.
In short, I enjoy a wide variety of information to draw from and from which to analyze, quote and form opinions. Just in case you were worried, Virgil, that you were my only source of what's going on in the circle of people with reprehensible beliefs; there are plenty of others I have unfortunately been exposed to and whom I'm able to quote.
I can understand that your mind is boggled. Your inability to understand the distinction between quoting someone and sharing in the beliefs quoted, your lack of understanding of how statistical analysis works and your misguided notions that you are the star of the show and of some sort of outsized importance indicate that you suffer from a lack of advanced reasoning ability and perhaps a few delusions. And we know that you hate hypocrisy so it's important that we not tolerate your delusions, as they may be harmful to you.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2015 9:49:19 GMT -5
You may be able to play that game with other people Virgil, but we are smarter than your average bear. We know exactly what we are about, and what you are about. Your ability to use subterfuge and misdirection to try to strengthen your position won't work here... It boggles my mind that you would think it would... Time to let this thread die. Methinks you're right. I guess I've swiped enough pic-a-nic baskets.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 9:49:37 GMT -5
You may be able to play that game with other people Virgil, but we are smarter than your average bear. We know exactly what we are about, and what you are about. Your ability to use subterfuge and misdirection to try to strengthen your position won't work here... It boggles my mind that you would think it would... honestly, at this point it looks like he's just messing with you guys because he knows he can get a reaction. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's really what it looks like to me. I'm sure he means what he says, but he's already covered it before.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 16, 2015 9:53:09 GMT -5
Time to let this thread die. Methinks you're right. Yes, because you've been called on your Truth Deficit Syndrome, had your butt handed to you and are quickly running out of ways to score points with misdirection.
So to shut it down and stop your butt whooping, you want to call an end to the fight.
Petty. Very petty. Are you also going to - as you have in past threads where you were also losing the debate - continue to post on the thread as a mod once you provoke the others to close the thread?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 16, 2015 9:56:14 GMT -5
Woozle wozzle.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 16, 2015 9:58:17 GMT -5
Yes, because you've been called on your Truth Deficit Syndrome, had your butt handed to you and are quickly running out of ways to score points with misdirection.
So to shut it down and stop your butt whooping, you want to call an end to the fight.
Petty. Very petty. Are you also going to - as you have in past threads where you were also losing the debate - continue to post on the thread as a mod can once you provoke the others to close the thread?
I suggested it because of the outright attacks on a poster here. It is no longer about the issue being discussed. Very UN-YMAM of posters here.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 10:06:02 GMT -5
but how many people are taking the things said here by EITHER side of the issue and just accepting it without further question?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 16, 2015 10:07:01 GMT -5
Yes, because you've been called on your Truth Deficit Syndrome, had your butt handed to you and are quickly running out of ways to score points with misdirection.
So to shut it down and stop your butt whooping, you want to call an end to the fight.
Petty. Very petty. Are you also going to - as you have in past threads where you were also losing the debate - continue to post on the thread as a mod can once you provoke the others to close the thread?
I suggested it because of the outright attacks on a poster here. It is no longer about the issue being discussed. Very UN-YMAM of posters here. You're absolutely right. He edited it, so you can't read it now, but Virgil outright attacked several of us by blatantly misstating what we had posted. Because he was no longer able to discuss the issue, he attacked those he disagreed with. Very UN-YMAM of a poster, especially one that is a mod.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 16, 2015 10:14:13 GMT -5
I suggested it because of the outright attacks on a poster here. It is no longer about the issue being discussed. Very UN-YMAM of posters here. You're absolutely right. He edited it, so you can't read it now, but Virgil outright attacked several of us by blatantly misstating what we had posted. Because he was no longer able to discuss the issue, he attacked those he disagreed with. Very UN-YMAM of a poster, especially one that is a mod.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 16, 2015 10:23:49 GMT -5
It was an especially nice touch that he was able to go back through the posts of others who had quoted his original personal attack and "misstatement" (I'm not allowed to call them lies) to edit what they quoted of him. So first he attacks others, then when the others respond to his attack, he edits his original attack and their quotes of him within their own posts - which removes evidence of his attack, and leaves only their rebuttals. Which make him look like an innocent who was wrongly victimized by an outraged mob.
Virgil, if you can't debate using the same rules and parameters as the rest of the posters, does that mean that your argument is weak or that you're just not intelligent enough to compete on a level field?
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jun 16, 2015 10:44:47 GMT -5
Given this has become nothing but a thread to fight, I think we'll call it quits now.
I can't see that there's anything left to discuss anyway.
~moon / mod
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