Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 9:57:30 GMT -5
Transgender is a documented medical condition. There have been autopsies done on brains of trans people and their brains look like the brains of their identified gender, not their birth gender. Confused about it? Do some reading on Caster Semenya, the South African woman who competed in the Olympics. She's always been female, but post-win testing showed she had abnormally high testosterone levels because she had previously unknown testes in her body. She had to have surgery/hormones to get within typical female levels so she could continue competing. There is a wealth of information out there about the gender spectrum and how humans fall on it. Not gossip sites, but actual research. For those who are confused, it would be pretty easy to read up on it. Trans youth have a 45% attempted suicide rate. The assault/murder rate of trans adults is horrific. Every year trans people gather in major cities to list the trans who have been murdered in the previous 12 months. No one wants to be trans for kicks and giggles. It's a VERY hard life. Lastly, whether a person has "fixed" their genitals has NOTHING to do with their gender status. Getting bottom surgery can be 50-80K. Hormones can cost 1K/mo. Frankly, medical science hasn't come up with a decent penis yet so female to male trans often don't even want to go that route. That said, their genitals are private to THEM. I wouldn't dream of asking an adult about the condition of their penis or vagina, so I'm not sure why we need to know about Caitlyn's. It is so totally beyond the realm of acceptable behavior. The "transgenderism is a mental illness from birth" argument, including all of these factoids, was already peddled in the last Bruce Jenner thread, and rebutted there.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 9:59:16 GMT -5
EXACTLY!!!! Why is it so hard to admit that the concept of male/female is more than just what society tells us it is? I will agree with that all day long, but didn't you say on page one that you don't agree with the concept of transgendered people and that declaring yourself something doesn't make it true? I don't recall posting that, but I remember people trying to lump me into posts with their opinions. I am not taking the "typical naysayer" stance on this. I don't necessarily agree with whoever made that statement, mostly because it's hard for me to wrap my head around the issue. I did say that I think it's weird to get a sex change and I believe the supposed fluidity of gender will have far-reaching effects with regard to our future. That is my opinion in a nutshell.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 9:59:16 GMT -5
Since he likes women, does that mean he is now a lesbian? I'm so confused by all of this...I'm just thankful that this isn't something I have to deal with in real life. I don't think I could handle it if my daughter suddenly decided she was a he...luckily, she is as girly as they come so I think I'm safe. I think you remind me of my Dad. He was a tolerant person but he would joke around if he saw a lesbian couple wondering which was really the "man" and which was the "woman". I think he was just trying to put it into terms he was comfortable with or felt he understood.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 2, 2015 10:02:15 GMT -5
I will agree with that all day long, but didn't you say on page one that you don't agree with the concept of transgendered people and that declaring yourself something doesn't make it true? I don't recall posting that, but I remember people trying to lump me into posts with their opinions. I am not taking the "typical naysayer" stance on this. I don't necessarily agree with whoever made that statement, mostly because it's hard for me to wrap my head around the issue. I did say that I think it's weird to get a sex change and I believe the supposed fluidity of gender will have far-reaching effects with regard to our future. That is my opinion in a nutshell. I went back and fixed my post, as I was probably reading more into your post. And I agree on the bolded part.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:02:21 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 10:02:48 GMT -5
How is anyone else's conception of their own gender and how they go about living that concept, harmful to me? It's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 10:04:25 GMT -5
raeoflyte, if gender is just a social construct like people are trying to argue on this thread, then physical surgery and hormone therapy wouldn't be necessary. But it seems that there is a "look like a (wo)man, act like a (wo)man" aspect, which tells me that gender isn't just a social construct - it has biological/physical aspects as well.
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 2, 2015 10:05:04 GMT -5
MJ, I get the difficulty wrapping your head around it. For however accepting and open I am to whatever people want to do for themselves, I have this teeny voice in my head that says to me "well... biologically they're still male.." and I can't seem to not hear that voice. It makes me feel shitty and uncomfortable, even though it shouldn't. It doesn't mean I don't support transgender people, because I do - who am I to say how someone else should live their lives? It just means that I think very literally and scientifically and in black-and-whites, and at a basic level, my brain can't stop reminding me that this person is genetically male. Again, it doesn't affect what I think of or how I would address a transgender person. As I said previously I couldn't even begin to understand how someone in that position feels, so I have zero place to judge them. I would absolutely stand up against harassment or discrimination toward a transgender person and their right to dignity and the life they want to live.
I hesitated posting this because a) I don't want to sound like a dick, and b) I don't want to sound like a dick.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 10:05:55 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. old? Virgil is younger that you!lol
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cael
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Post by cael on Jun 2, 2015 10:06:32 GMT -5
@ Richard
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 10:07:29 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. did you really just insult Virgil for the 2nd time and express happiness at his eventual demise? BTW, he's around my age - late 20s/early 30s. If you (general "you") can't deal with someone having an opinion different than yours, even if that person isn't trying to trample on anyone else's rights to live their lives, then you are just as bigoted as you perceive them to be.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 2, 2015 10:08:42 GMT -5
MJ, I get the difficulty wrapping your head around it. For however accepting and open I am to whatever people want to do for themselves, I have this teeny voice in my head that says to me "well... biologically they're still male.." and I can't seem to not hear that voice. It makes me feel shitty and uncomfortable, even though it shouldn't. It doesn't mean I don't support transgender people, because I do - who am I to say how someone else should live their lives? It just means that I think very literally and scientifically and in black-and-whites, and at a basic level, my brain can't stop reminding me that this person is genetically male. Again, it doesn't affect what I think of or how I would address a transgender person. As I said previously I couldn't even begin to understand how someone in that position feels, so I have zero place to judge them. I would absolutely stand up against harassment or discrimination toward a transgender person and their right to dignity and the life they want to live. I hesitated posting this because a) I don't want to sound like a Richard, and b) I don't want to sound like a Richard. I'm sort of on the same page as you...I don't understand it, I would be devastated if my child were transgendered (I would still love her and do what I could to help her) and quite frankly, I will always think "they are genetically a male" because they ARE. I don't buy into "identifying as something suddenly makes you something other than what you are". I just don't. However, I also don't care what anyone else does as long as it doesn't impact me. Bruce Jenner turning into a woman has absolutely no bearing on my life. If it makes him happy, what the hell do I care. Of course, if it were my dad I would be mortified and devastated.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:08:51 GMT -5
How is anyone else's conception of their own gender and how they go about living that concept, harmful to me? It's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion. But who cares if a bunch of people are "inspired to act on your delusion?" I guess I don't understand why anyone cares about someone else's sexuality or gender identity. Gay, straight, transgender...whatever. It really doesn't effect my life what others do in this regard and I don't give it much thought. Even if my own son where to choose to do so, it's his life. I guess, my biggest concern then would be fear of him not being accepted and having a harder time than he should have because people feel it's there business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:08:47 GMT -5
Are there genetic sex linked traits? Yes. Do they genetically ensure that a person 'looks/acts like a woman' or 'looks/acts like a man'... No way. people can't even tell me what that means, acts/looks like a man or woman. Because we (currently) refuse to allow a genetic imperative to suggest that we should/should not look/act in a certain way... Social construct.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 10:09:59 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. I'm 32. And you can stop with the ad hominems any time. I suggest using your time to visit the previous thread on the subject (see link above) to discover what I do in fact know about transgenderism. If you have a lot of time, search for "transgender" in my post record. I've been a party to at least four major discussions on the subject, replete with facts, opinions, excuses, and the like. You'll no doubt be surprised.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jun 2, 2015 10:10:34 GMT -5
Being the social outcast that I am, It probably stands to reason the I could care less if Bruce Jenner is now Kaitlyn or any thing that is happening at the Cardashian household.
I don't care if Kaitlyn or Bruce go into the wrong restroom. this is news??
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 10:12:02 GMT -5
MJ, I get the difficulty wrapping your head around it. For however accepting and open I am to whatever people want to do for themselves, I have this teeny voice in my head that says to me "well... biologically they're still male.." and I can't seem to not hear that voice. It makes me feel shitty and uncomfortable, even though it shouldn't. It doesn't mean I don't support transgender people, because I do - who am I to say how someone else should live their lives? It just means that I think very literally and scientifically and in black-and-whites, and at a basic level, my brain can't stop reminding me that this person is genetically male. Again, it doesn't affect what I think of or how I would address a transgender person. As I said previously I couldn't even begin to understand how someone in that position feels, so I have zero place to judge them. I would absolutely stand up against harassment or discrimination toward a transgender person and their right to dignity and the life they want to live. I hesitated posting this because a) I don't want to sound like a Richard, and b) I don't want to sound like a Richard. point is, we shouldn't feel "wrong" for feeling any sort of way... men shouldn't feel "wrong" for liking men, women shouldn't feel "wrong" for liking women, a boy shouldn't feel "wrong" for thinking he should really be a girl, and I shouldn't feel "wrong" for thinking that's weird. Point blank period.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 2, 2015 10:12:44 GMT -5
People do all sorts of shit to their bodies. Fuck it if I care.
That's all I have to say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:12:43 GMT -5
Virgil is not interested in science SK. He is an ignorant person. I am sorry there are people like him who your family will be exposed to. But he's old and his kind of religious dictate will soon disappear from the earth. I hope the rest of us can provide a cushion to drown that ilk out until it's no longer necessary. did you really just insult Virgil for the 2nd time and express happiness at his eventual demise? BTW, he's around my age - late 20s/early 30s. If you (general "you") can't deal with someone having an opinion different than yours, even if that person isn't trying to trample on anyone else's rights to live their lives, then you are just as bigoted as you perceive them to be. He seems really old. I dont care if your opinions persist Mj. As I said, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. But Virgil's spew is the reason why suicide rates are what they are in this population. I will be happy with the demise of that mindset, yes.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 2, 2015 10:14:01 GMT -5
MJ, I get the difficulty wrapping your head around it. For however accepting and open I am to whatever people want to do for themselves, I have this teeny voice in my head that says to me "well... biologically they're still male.." and I can't seem to not hear that voice. It makes me feel shitty and uncomfortable, even though it shouldn't. It doesn't mean I don't support transgender people, because I do - who am I to say how someone else should live their lives? It just means that I think very literally and scientifically and in black-and-whites, and at a basic level, my brain can't stop reminding me that this person is genetically male. Again, it doesn't affect what I think of or how I would address a transgender person. As I said previously I couldn't even begin to understand how someone in that position feels, so I have zero place to judge them. I would absolutely stand up against harassment or discrimination toward a transgender person and their right to dignity and the life they want to live. I hesitated posting this because a) I don't want to sound like a Richard, and b) I don't want to sound like a Richard. point is, we shouldn't feel "wrong" for feeling any sort of way... men shouldn't feel "wrong" for liking men, women shouldn't feel "wrong" for liking women, a boy shouldn't feel "wrong" for thinking he should really be a girl, and I shouldn't feel "wrong" for thinking that's weird. Point blank period. It's kind of like how I think eating mayo is weird. Sorry mayo lovers
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 10:14:01 GMT -5
Are there genetic sex linked traits? Yes. Do they genetically ensure that a person 'looks/acts like a woman' or 'looks/acts like a man'... No way. people can't even tell me what that means, acts/looks like a man or woman. Because we (currently) refuse to allow a genetic imperative to suggest that we should/should not look/act in a certain way... Social construct. if there is no way to look like/act like a man/woman, then why are the physical changes needed?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 2, 2015 10:14:53 GMT -5
Are there genetic sex linked traits? Yes. Do they genetically ensure that a person 'looks/acts like a woman' or 'looks/acts like a man'... No way. people can't even tell me what that means, acts/looks like a man or woman. Because we (currently) refuse to allow a genetic imperative to suggest that we should/should not look/act in a certain way... Social construct. if there is no way to look like/act like a man/woman, then why are the physical changes needed? because he likes having titties.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 10:15:50 GMT -5
It's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion. But who cares if a bunch of people are "inspired to act on your delusion?" I guess I don't understand why anyone cares about someone else's sexuality or gender identity. Gay, straight, transgender...whatever. It really doesn't effect my life what others do in this regard and I don't give it much thought. Even if my own son where to choose to do so, it's his life. I guess, my biggest concern then would be fear of him not being accepted and having a harder time than he should have because people feel it's there business. I won't repost the consequences of gender-changing surgeries here (look for a lengthy article written by Walsh in the last thread if you're interested), but I'd obviously prefer to live in a society where there were fewer such negative consequences. We don't live in a box. We amid a plurality of ideas, and ideas have consequences.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 10:17:53 GMT -5
if there is no way to look like/act like a man/woman, then why are the physical changes needed? because he likes having titties. hopefully I'll be able to buy some titties someday....
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 2, 2015 10:18:10 GMT -5
I dont care if your opinions persist Mj. As I said, as long as you don't hurt anyone else. But Virgil's spew is the reason why suicide rates are what they are in this population. I will be happy with the demise of that mindset, yes. And now you're the one making statements out of ignorance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:19:59 GMT -5
Are there genetic sex linked traits? Yes. Do they genetically ensure that a person 'looks/acts like a woman' or 'looks/acts like a man'... No way. people can't even tell me what that means, acts/looks like a man or woman. Because we (currently) refuse to allow a genetic imperative to suggest that we should/should not look/act in a certain way... Social construct. if there is no way to look like/act like a man/woman, then why are the physical changes needed? Are you saying that cover is the only way for a woman to look/act?
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 2, 2015 10:20:56 GMT -5
Are there genetic sex linked traits? Yes. Do they genetically ensure that a person 'looks/acts like a woman' or 'looks/acts like a man'... No way. people can't even tell me what that means, acts/looks like a man or woman. Because we (currently) refuse to allow a genetic imperative to suggest that we should/should not look/act in a certain way... Social construct. if there is no way to look like/act like a man/woman, then why are the physical changes needed? My guess is because they feel physically wrong and they hate to look in the mirror and see that it's wrong every dang day of their lives? I have no clue, but that's my imaginative guess.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 2, 2015 10:25:22 GMT -5
but why do they think it looks wrong? I mean if being a woman/man is just as simple as believing you're a woman/man, why does the exterior matter?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 10:27:03 GMT -5
How is anyone else's conception of their own gender and how they go about living that concept, harmful to me? It's harmful to them (see previous thread on the subject). It becomes harmful to you if the behaviour is peddled as normal, commendable, or even glamorous, and you're inspired to act on your own delusion. This MJ. Virgil differs from you in that his goal is to categorize the other person as broken and their personal decisions as dangerous... Which is what actually makes his position dangerous and untenable. And it's this type of insistence that contributes to the suicide/homicide rates among transgendered populations. So yes, I'll attempt to counter this kind of 'opinion' wherever I can.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jun 2, 2015 10:27:38 GMT -5
Caitlyn looks great. I hope I can look half as good in my 60's even with plastic surgery and photoshop.
But, I'm glad that someone so high profile is willing to share their transition. I have a childhood friend who made the male to female transition about 4 years ago. Her road was incredibly difficult and painful. I don't think that it's the type of road that anyone would select if they had choice.
I am hoping that because people like Caitlyn Jenner have come out from the shadows, that in 20 to 30 years that being transgendered will have made the same strides that the gay community has made (to be fair there is a way to go there, but compared to 20 years ago, there is a huge difference from my POV). Hopefully, we'll get to a point where all people are celebrated regardless of the body they were born into or the sex of the person they love.
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