Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 15:52:39 GMT -5
I don't really understand the thinking in these things, but I hope she's happy. She's kind of pretty, I guess.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Jun 1, 2015 16:00:08 GMT -5
I wish Jenner the best. Until the physical reassignment and legal paperwork are complete, I still use the pronoun "he," although I respect Jenner's preference for "she."
I was a little shocked at the photo; I did not thing the progression would be this good so far.
It's a tough decision to make and then decide to go through it. I have two transgender friends (both male-to-female). No one wakes up one day and suddenly makes this decision. It's a long, torturous process and many transgenders lose the support of family and friends in that process. Jenner is fortunate to have maintained that support.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 1, 2015 16:07:09 GMT -5
That is an amazing photo. I wish I was that photogenic. Wow.
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fatbear
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Post by fatbear on Jun 1, 2015 16:17:45 GMT -5
I wonder if she's going to do an adult video now and if it would be before or after penis removal. Could make 2 videos for both variations.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 1, 2015 16:21:03 GMT -5
I'm sure the photo has gone thru the same photoshopping that Vanity Fair covers normally go thru... and that's not to belittle whatever transistion she's gone thru already... just stating the fact that ALL pictures on the covers of magazines get 'shopped'. That said, I'm ambivelant about the whole 'transgender' thing - it doesn't upset me. I have no problems addressing/refering to people the way they would like to be referred to. They may have to correct me if I get it wrong but after that I'm good to go. I figure it's just like someone's name. If someone introduces themselves to me as "Charles" I'm not gonna reply with "Nice to meet you Chuck!" - I'm gonna reply with "Nice to meet you Charles". So, if you change your name or your gender - I'll use what you would like me to use. If you want to be referred to with the pronoun "they" instead of he/she - I'm good with that too. Just let me know (or politely tell me to use it - in case I haven't heard other's use it). FWIW: When I was a kid - of the skeptical variety - the one thing I latched onto with total and complete belief was that you could be anything you wanted to be... and then at some point I realized the hard cold truth that there was catch... you could be anything you wanted to be AS LONG as it was acceptable by society/culture/religion. It makes me smile when someone has the strength/will/need/whatever to get past that catch... So, I'm happy for Caitlyn. I wish her the best. I like it when someone gets to be whatever they want to be.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 1, 2015 16:24:58 GMT -5
That is an amazing photo. I wish I was that photogenic. Wow. You are with Photoshop. We all are.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 1, 2015 16:26:44 GMT -5
Caitlyn? I mean, was that even a name anyone used during his generation? It's a pretty name, but i really would have thought that if he had this deep longing, he would have had a name in mind for YEARS. Maybe he did, who knows? For me, i really don't care. It doesn't affect me. It's his life and money , he can do whatever he wants to do. However, he is obligated to consider his children and how it affects them. But,ultimately, that is his decision to make.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 16:36:24 GMT -5
Is it pc to ask questions? She still has a penis. She still is attracted to women. Is she a lesbian? I know 'lesbian' is just a label and nothing more, but I wonder what the preferred label is.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 1, 2015 17:34:10 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 17:36:23 GMT -5
Is it pc to ask questions? She still has a penis. She still is attracted to women. Is she a lesbian? I know 'lesbian' is just a label and nothing more, but I wonder what the preferred label is. Since you are asking an honest question (and not trying to be snarky ), hopefully I can answer to your satisfaction.
I think it's important to remember that "gender" and "sexuality" can (for some people) be two very different things.
"The Norm" out there in the world is always driven - as you know - by the majority culture and their views. In "The Norm," one's gender and one's sexual orientation "line up." But clearly there are other ways to "be" in the world.
I think it also helps to remember that one's sexual orientation is not a "choice," it is an integral part of who the person is; a quick internet search of medical studies on this subject will give you any evidence-based data you might want. How an individual chooses to behave is what makes the difference, not their inborn orientation. Behavior is a choice; orientation is not.
Example: many straight people assume gay people are sex freaks just because they are "different." Many people assume that gay men MUST be either latent or out-in-the-open pedophiles because they "like" other men (and therefore boys). Nothing could be further from the truth (because another quick internet search will show you that the vast majority of convicted pedophiles are straight men). There are gay people who are celibate just like there are straight people who are celibate. There are gay people who are faithful to their partners just like there are straight people who are faithful. There are gay people who are players just like there are straight people who are players. Sexuality and sexual expression runs the gamut across all sexual orientations.
Caitlyn (formerly Bruce) lives in the body of one gender but identifies down to her DNA as the other gender. She (and all other transgender persons) carry a deep-seated belief that they were merely born into the wrong body. They are lucky because they live in an era where medical and surgical procedures can help them align their body with their identity. Remember that she has lived with a penis for 60+ years and has always identified as female, even though her male body produced six children consistent with our culture's majority view of gender and sexuality.
When her surgery is complete she will finally physically be fully the woman she has always regarded herself to be. All surgery is going to do is resolve her cognitive dissonance. It will not change who she is and who she has always been. How she will express herself sexually is up to her. How she labels her sexuality is up to her.
Of course our culture may be quick to label her - calling her lesbian or whatever. But she is one of the people for whom gender and sexuality are two different things.
Hope this helps.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 17:38:46 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jun 1, 2015 17:40:20 GMT -5
Caitlyn strongly resembles Jessica Lange to me. I wonder if that was on purpose or just coincidental.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 17:45:45 GMT -5
You! Look! Fabulous!
All the best!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 17:47:08 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. You find it absurd because you don't understand it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 1, 2015 17:47:34 GMT -5
I find it bizarre but as it doesn't impact me in any way. I really don't care
One thing I have to say is that I want his hair! Something I never said about a man befofe :-p
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 17:53:00 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
what does "fluid"mean in this context? That a person can change gender identity and change back? I guess I believe that a person can have the mind of a different sex then the body, but I think that is from chemical and hormonal or whatever stuff that happens why the person is being made in the mother's body. Are you saying it can change after birth?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 18:20:40 GMT -5
Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
what does "fluid"mean in this context? That a person can change gender identity and change back? I guess I believe that a person can have the mind of a different sex then the body, but I think that is from chemical and hormonal or whatever stuff that happens why the person is being made in the mother's body. Are you saying it can change after birth? No, I'm saying what you're saying - - that gender identity is mostly a matter of pre-natal biological formation. It is the almost-automatic "social constructs" we place on gender that can be tricky. What's the first question we all ask when a baby is born? We want to know its gender so we have a social and cultural framework for relating to it. When we hear "it's a boy," most of us have an automatic set of assumptions that go with it. But just because a baby is visually born with male genitalia does not mean the baby identifies with being Male. That comes later - and sometimes it doesn't come at all (or it comes on with a vengeance of testosterone). There are all those other medical (chemical/hormonal/chromosomal) factors at work.
If you peruse any academically sound, graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality (or medical school texts on the same subject), you will learn that all fetuses essentially begin as female (the testes/ovaries are undifferentiated). It is a rush of male hormones as triggered by DNA that turns undifferentiated reproductive organs into male organs - - and male genitalia development begins. But you will also read (and see in photos) that A LOT can go wrong along the way. Way more babies than you would think (but still a small percentage) are born hermaphroditic or with hermaphroditic characteristics because something went chemically/hormonally "wrong" at a critical time along the way to differentiation. Doctors - God love them! - are quick to want to do surgery to spare parents and their children the social stigma that comes along with being "different." So in the past, many quick surgeries were done based on visual inspection of a baby's genitalia so that parents could go home with a "normal" child. And sometimes their guesses were wrong. Today DNA testing can be readily done to determine gender instead of the former visual guess.
All of which is to say that it is the "stuff" we can't see that determines gender identity, not just the organs we're born with and the social/cultural assumptions that come with it. Make sense, yes/no?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 18:21:57 GMT -5
Gender is a social construct. What is 'male/masculine' and or is 'female/feminin' isn't cemented in either society or the individual. Nor are those things definitive. Ie. It's fluid.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jun 1, 2015 18:25:11 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. You find it absurd because you don't understand it. Or maybe Phoenix finds it absurd because that's his opinion.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 18:26:41 GMT -5
You find it absurd because you don't understand it. Or maybe Phoenix finds it absurd because that's his opinion. An opinion unfortunately not based in scientific or medical fact.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 1, 2015 18:26:48 GMT -5
Caitlyn strongly resembles Jessica Lange to me. I wonder if that was on purpose or just coincidental. You beat me to it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 18:32:43 GMT -5
what does "fluid"mean in this context? That a person can change gender identity and change back? I guess I believe that a person can have the mind of a different sex then the body, but I think that is from chemical and hormonal or whatever stuff that happens why the person is being made in the mother's body. Are you saying it can change after birth? No, I'm saying what you're saying - - that gender identity is mostly a matter of pre-natal biological formation. It is the almost-automatic "social constructs" we place on gender that can be tricky. What's the first question we all ask when a baby is born? We want to know its gender so we have a social and cultural framework for relating to it. When we hear "it's a boy," most of us have an automatic set of assumptions that go with it. But just because a baby is visually born with male genitalia does not mean the baby identifies with being Male. That comes later - and sometimes it doesn't come at all (or it comes on with a vengeance of testosterone). There are all those other medical (chemical/hormonal/chromosomal) factors at work.
If you peruse any academically sound, graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality (or medical school texts on the same subject), you will learn that all fetuses essentially begin as female (the testes/ovaries are undifferentiated). It is a rush of male hormones as triggered by DNA that turns undifferentiated reproductive organs into male organs - - and male genitalia development begins. But you will also read (and see in photos) that A LOT can go wrong along the way. Way more babies than you would think (but still a small percentage) are born hermaphroditic or with hermaphroditic characteristics because something went chemically/hormonally "wrong" at a critical time along the way to differentiation. Doctors - God love them! - are quick to want to do surgery to spare parents and their children the social stigma that comes along with being "different." So in the past, many quick surgeries were done based on visual inspection of a baby's genitalia so that parents could go home with a "normal" child. And sometimes their guesses were wrong. Today DNA testing can be readily done to determine gender instead of the former visual guess.
All of which is to say that it is the "stuff" we can't see that determines gender identity, not just the organs we're born with and the social/cultural assumptions that come with it. Make sense, yes/no?
I will say yes that makes sense, with the caveat that I put in my first post, I don't really understand the thinking in these things. I hope she's happy. thanks for the explanations
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 1, 2015 18:40:12 GMT -5
what does "fluid" mean in this context? That a person can change gender identity and change back? I guess I believe that a person can have the mind of a different sex then the body, but I think that is from chemical and hormonal or whatever stuff that happens why the person is being made in the mother's body. Are you saying it can change after birth.
To answer your question (as much as I understand trans-genders to be) - they see themselves as one gender born into the other genders physical body.
The decision to go through the long process of becoming the true person they are is a decision that's not made lightly.
Many confuse trans-gender with trans-sexual. Two completely different things.
I saw the Vanity Fair cover yesterday on the news. Yes, it's been airbrushed and photo-shopped - but most covers - such as Cosmo etc are too.
In the interviews/clips I've seen of him on TV - the most recent this morning as he was setting up his new Malibu condo - he doesn't look anything like that cover where he was professionally made up and dressed, with hair coiffed and then placed in a pose by the photographer.
He still looks like the male Bruce, with is hair tied back in a ponytail.
As for the Kardashian "kids" only 2 of the 6 are fathered by Bruce - the others are the children Kris' first husband, Robert Kardashian.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 1, 2015 18:41:29 GMT -5
That photo is photoshopped to extreme measures. I highly, highly doubt she is really that "pretty." The face doesn't even look real.
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kittensaver
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We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 18:44:41 GMT -5
No, I'm saying what you're saying - - that gender identity is mostly a matter of pre-natal biological formation. It is the almost-automatic "social constructs" we place on gender that can be tricky. What's the first question we all ask when a baby is born? We want to know its gender so we have a social and cultural framework for relating to it. When we hear "it's a boy," most of us have an automatic set of assumptions that go with it. But just because a baby is visually born with male genitalia does not mean the baby identifies with being Male. That comes later - and sometimes it doesn't come at all (or it comes on with a vengeance of testosterone). There are all those other medical (chemical/hormonal/chromosomal) factors at work.
If you peruse any academically sound, graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality (or medical school texts on the same subject), you will learn that all fetuses essentially begin as female (the testes/ovaries are undifferentiated). It is a rush of male hormones as triggered by DNA that turns undifferentiated reproductive organs into male organs - - and male genitalia development begins. But you will also read (and see in photos) that A LOT can go wrong along the way. Way more babies than you would think (but still a small percentage) are born hermaphroditic or with hermaphroditic characteristics because something went chemically/hormonally "wrong" at a critical time along the way to differentiation. Doctors - God love them! - are quick to want to do surgery to spare parents and their children the social stigma that comes along with being "different." So in the past, many quick surgeries were done based on visual inspection of a baby's genitalia so that parents could go home with a "normal" child. And sometimes their guesses were wrong. Today DNA testing can be readily done to determine gender instead of the former visual guess.
All of which is to say that it is the "stuff" we can't see that determines gender identity, not just the organs we're born with and the social/cultural assumptions that come with it. Make sense, yes/no?
I will say yes that makes sense, with the caveat that I put in my first post, I don't really understand the thinking in these things. I hope she's happy. thanks for the explanations Hey - I totally get it. You and me and many, many others are the "lucky" ones who were born without these issues so it never occurs to us that others might really, REALLY struggle with it - especially in the face of the strong, deep-seated social and cultural stigmas we are all (often passively) taught in our homes, communities, schools and churches.
People who are ignorant of the medical facts are sometimes very quick to judge others by their outward appearances - including massive cultural assumptions about gender. Kuddos to you for having compassion for Caitlyn and for your fellow man; more people should have your "live and let live - I hope she's happy" attitude. Other people don't have to be "like us" in order to be acceptable.
I hope she's finally happy too .
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kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 1, 2015 18:45:42 GMT -5
what does "fluid" mean in this context? That a person can change gender identity and change back? I guess I believe that a person can have the mind of a different sex then the body, but I think that is from chemical and hormonal or whatever stuff that happens why the person is being made in the mother's body. Are you saying it can change after birth. To answer your question (as much as I understand trans-genders to be) - they see themselves as one gender born into the other genders physical body.
The decision to go through the long process of becoming the true person they are is a decision that's not made lightly.
Many confuse trans-gender with trans-sexual. Two completely different things.
I saw the Vanity Fair cover yesterday on the news. Yes, it's been airbrushed and photo-shopped - but most covers - such as Cosmo etc are too.
In the interviews/clips I've seen of him on TV - the most recent this morning as he was setting up his new Malibu condo - he doesn't look anything like that cover where he was professionally made up and dressed, with hair coiffed and then placed in a pose by the photographer.
He still looks like the male Bruce, with is hair tied back in a ponytail.
As for the Kardashian "kids" only 2 of the 6 are fathered by Bruce - the others are the children Kris' first husband, Robert Kardashian.He has 4 other children by two previous marriages.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 18:56:58 GMT -5
I will say yes that makes sense, with the caveat that I put in my first post, I don't really understand the thinking in these things. I hope she's happy. thanks for the explanations Hey - I totally get it. You and me and many, many others are the "lucky" ones who were born without these issues so it never occurs to us that others might really, REALLY struggle with it - especially in the face of the strong, deep-seated social and cultural stigmas we are all (often passively) taught in our homes, communities, schools and churches.
People who are ignorant of the medical facts are sometimes very quick to judge others by their outward appearances - including massive cultural assumptions about gender. Kuddos to you for having compassion for Caitlyn and for your fellow man; more people should have your "live and let live - I hope she's happy" attitude. Other people don't have to be "like us" in order to be acceptable.
I hope she's finally happy too .
Exactly. Many of them struggle so much that it makes their lives a living hell. We cover sexual-reassignment surgery to make them whole again. It's not a whim or a trend or a way to get into the girls' bathroom.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 1, 2015 19:28:27 GMT -5
I know it's not a popular or politically correct opinion, but I don't think someone can really "transition" to another gender. You are what you were born with and always will be, no matter what surgical procedures you undergo and what you call yourself or get others to call you. I honestly find the whole idea absurd. Nope. Science and medicine are NOT on your side with this one - sorry. If you'd like to learn more, any good graduate-level textbook on Human Sexuality can tell you more. So can many medical textbooks.
Sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity are much more fluid constructs than the average person believes. Not for everyone, of course, but for many people.
I just don't think anyone can proclaim themselves something their not. If I proclaim myself a dog, and get a tail surgically put on and start barking and make society call me a dog, does that really make me a dog?
Hypothetical question, would you be okay dating, marrying, or having sex with someone who was born of the same sex? I'm sure some would be okay with it, but I imagine a great many would NOT be okay with it.
Ultimately though, it's a free country, I don't really care what people do as long as it's not illegal. I don't have a dog in the fight. Best of luck to Mr. Jenner, I guess if it makes him feel better about himself, then I guess it was a positive outcome.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 1, 2015 19:29:35 GMT -5
That photo is photoshopped to extreme measures. I highly, highly doubt she is really that "pretty." The face doesn't even look real. Yeah, the jaw in particular doesn't look right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 19:33:10 GMT -5
What is a 'female' Pheonix? What is a 'male'. When you proclaim yourself as one, does it have only to do with a penis or lack there of?
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