EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 1, 2015 21:22:24 GMT -5
I wasn't going to chime in on the issue of whether or not Gray hurt himself but I will given there are more than a few people that find that totally implausible.
In another life, in a galaxy far away, as part of my job I was involved in the apprehension and transfer (as driver) of unruly individuals. Some of them were VERY violent while being transported and a few actually exited the vehicle bleeding from fairly significant cuts on their head that weren't there when they were apprehended. So, it's "possible" he did it himself. I have to say "possible" because I wasn't there. I heard some 'cop' on the radio this morning saying how a person could do this- a cop mind you not a doctor that knows what kinds of stresses it takes to sever a spine. He also said there was no way driving reckless could possibly cause that kind of injury
So someone in the back of a van- cuffed and shackled can stand up and generate enough force in that small space to cause such an injury but the driver could not
Tell you what- let me drive that cop handcuffed unrestrained around the block I can assure you I can easily break some bones- won't even have to lock the brakes up to do it. Pure physics.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:24:24 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 1, 2015 21:48:06 GMT -5
They are also 2 over 6 ft tall, 3 between 5'8"-5'11", 1 under 5'8". 1 weighs over 200 lbs, 2 are between 199-185, 2 are between 184-170, 1 under 170. Not sure on eye color.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 21:50:16 GMT -5
They are also 2 over 6 ft tall, 3 between 5'8"-5'11", 1 under 5'8". 1 weighs over 200 lbs, 2 are between 199-185, 2 are between 184-170, 1 under 170. Not sure on eye color. ok, good
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 1, 2015 23:51:35 GMT -5
They are also 2 over 6 ft tall, 3 between 5'8"-5'11", 1 under 5'8". 1 weighs over 200 lbs, 2 are between 199-185, 2 are between 184-170, 1 under 170. Not sure on eye color. So I guess racism has nothing to do with it Someone should tell Fox news and their huge push to blame the victim as they always do when it comes to police/citizen encounters.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 2, 2015 0:23:16 GMT -5
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 2, 2015 8:05:03 GMT -5
It's so sad that we can't be secure that white cops can be trusted to not kill black men on a whim. If your statement is true I guess we now know that black cops can't be trusted not to kill black men on a whim either. I've seen a lot of articles lament about the demographics of police departments, about how they don't "reflect the demographics of the communities they police" and that it's a "significant barrier to trust."
And it's all racist bullshit if you ask me. The strong implication seems to be that you can't trust white people to police black people. Can you imagine the uproar if whites complained about blacks on the police force like that? Double standard anyone?
I personally don't care what color the police force of my town is as long as they do a good job. But it seems many have this desire for their police force to "look like them."
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on May 2, 2015 8:07:25 GMT -5
To my untrained eye, it's hard to predict what will happen. I do think the officers will have trouble getting a fair trial in Baltimore, and as a result it'll either be moved or it will get overturned on appeal. I also think murder 2 might be hard to stick, and if any convictions occur, it'll probably be wrongful death or manslaughter.
But as I said, hard to say.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 8:30:45 GMT -5
It's so sad that we can't be secure that white cops can be trusted to not kill black men on a whim. If your statement is true I guess we now know that black cops can't be trusted not to kill black men on a whim either. Seriously? You ignore zib's statement about only being able to hire black cops and zoom in on my sarcastic response?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 8:33:23 GMT -5
If your statement is true I guess we now know that black cops can't be trusted not to kill black men on a whim either. I've seen a lot of articles lament about the demographics of police departments, about how they don't "reflect the demographics of the communities they police" and that it's a "significant barrier to trust."
And it's all racist bullshit if you ask me. The strong implication seems to be that you can't trust white people to police black people. Can you imagine the uproar if whites complained about blacks on the police force like that? Double standard anyone?
I personally don't care what color the police force of my town is as long as they do a good job. But it seems many have this desire for their police force to "look like them."
If white people could pull up the statistics of white men being killed by the police that we can pull up about black men being killed by the police I can very well imagine the uproar. And it wouldn't be coming from the black community.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on May 2, 2015 9:55:36 GMT -5
Fair trial, hmmm, Any one concerned about the fair trials of the millions of people that can not afford high dollar attorneys to represent them? How about the fair trial that Mr. Grey received?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 2, 2015 9:59:42 GMT -5
I've already asked the question of how much of the way police officers respond in different communities has to with skin color or the crime rate within the community. If an area is a higher crime area, it is quite likely the police will let fewer things slide that they might let slide in other areas. So how much is due to racial bias and how much is due to police acting more forcefully in higher crime areas that happen to be predominantly AA? i don't think that question is easy to answer, so i am not going to attempt it. but i am sure others will. I appreciate you acknowledging the question. I think there are different issues at play in regard to this overall social issue....I think just attributing it to racism is an easy answer, and one that many people seem far too willing to blame far too often. Does race play an issue, it might...but that works both ways, whether you are saying police are more likely to act differently toward AA because of a biased view (intentional or not) or if you are talking about AA who view police as a threat and will act differently toward them (intentional or not). I'm guessing I act differently toward people I view as a threat and because of that, they are more likely to act differently toward me; so if both groups are acting differently because they view each other as a threat, then it is far more than just a bias based on skin color at play here.
Now somebody will most likely come back with something along the lines of AA have a reason to be mistrustful of police because of history, but the problem with that view is that 995 cops out of 1000 can do the right thing; but the 5 that don't will be used as "proof" that cops have a bias and AA.
People can also come up with statistics saying more AA are killed by cops, etc...but that still doesn't really address the overall issue. Is it because of skin color or is it because cops in higher crime areas (which tend to be lower socioeconomic areas) tend to be more forceful in those areas (especially in higher populated areas like inner cities), and if those areas are more likely to be predominantly AA....then it makes sense that a higher number and percentage of poor outcomes would come from those altercations. I'm not saying it's right or not...I'm making an observation to spark a conversation that I feel is far more complicated than just race relations.
Race relations may be part of the overall issue, but something that I haven't seen people consider is that maybe that really isn't the dominant reason but because it is the easy answer and so many people want that to be the answer, that we don't actually discuss the real issue and keep going back over it again and again with the same results.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 2, 2015 10:23:43 GMT -5
..., that we don't actually discuss the real issue ... I agree we are much more comfortable discussing race than class in this "classless" society.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 10:34:57 GMT -5
They are also 2 over 6 ft tall, 3 between 5'8"-5'11", 1 under 5'8". 1 weighs over 200 lbs, 2 are between 199-185, 2 are between 184-170, 1 under 170. Not sure on eye color. So I guess racism has nothing to do with it Someone should tell Fox news and their huge push to blame the victim as they always do when it comes to police/citizen encounters. I don't think race has nothing to do with it and in many cases I'm sure it does. In this instance though if the rough ride is the reason for the injury , I don't think the black driver gave black Freddie Gray a rough ride because Freddie was black.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 2, 2015 10:35:49 GMT -5
..., that we don't actually discuss the real issue ... I agree we are much more comfortable discussing race than class in this "classless" society. I think environment could play a large part in how different altercations with police go down. Saying it's due to racism implies that the same police officer wouldn't have done the same thing, in the same set of circumstances, at that moment if the skin color of the person was different....and honestly that may not be the case. So it really could be that race really isn't the issue, but because we keep promoting it as the issue, it promotes an even higher level of distrust between police and AA, which leads to AA acting/reacting differently toward police, and police toward AA.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on May 2, 2015 10:40:44 GMT -5
I think the increasing militarization also contributes to a lack of trust between the police and the population. It is hard to tell if the problem is getting worse or if it has always been there and the advent of cell phones has made it more visible.
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kent
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Post by kent on May 2, 2015 10:50:18 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 2, 2015 10:55:20 GMT -5
Rough rides from police are a feared Baltimore experienceBALTIMORE — The charges against six police officers in the death of Freddie Gray echo what some say is an old and unsavory police practice in this city, and others: the rough ride. It's a brand of street payback that some say is handed out by officers angry at a suspect who ran, or fought arrest, or otherwise crossed their line: Someone is handcuffed, put in the back of the police van, and taken on a wild, careening ride on the way to jail, so he or she bounces around in the back. Rest of article below. Rough rides from police are a feared Baltimore experience
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b2r
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Post by b2r on May 2, 2015 11:28:02 GMT -5
In a city of Baltimore's size there must be multiple witnesses to this 'rough ride'. #handsupdontshoot
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 2, 2015 13:04:34 GMT -5
I agree we are much more comfortable discussing race than class in this "classless" society. I think environment could play a large part in how different altercations with police go down. Saying it's due to racism implies that the same police officer wouldn't have done the same thing, in the same set of circumstances, at that moment if the skin color of the person was different....and honestly that may not be the case. So it really could be that race really isn't the issue, but because we keep promoting it as the issue, it promotes an even higher level of distrust between police and AA, which leads to AA acting/reacting differently toward police, and police toward AA. See what I mean. I post that we don't want to discuss class. You quote me and make no mention of class. You continue to discuss race.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 2, 2015 13:06:38 GMT -5
(Chris Hayes) shows how the news talks about black people by talking about white people instead.Just a heads-up: This is satire. This. Is. Satire. But that's why it's so freaking good. Just in case this segment left you scratching your head, let's break down what it all means. This brilliantly scathing piece was meant to show the hypocrisy in how news media talks criminal behavior in black and white communities. And the takeaway is this: Our media is incredibly biased when it comes to covering crime involving people of color. How do we know? Let's look at three themes that play out over and over again. Rest of article here: He shows how the news talks about black people by talking about white people instead.And the U.S. Open of Surfing sports event did turn into a riot in Huntington Beach in 2013. U.S. Open of Surfing Turns Into Riot
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on May 2, 2015 13:21:32 GMT -5
I am starting to have an uncomfortable feeling about the liberties some police take, and some of their actions are down right criminal. Is this a pattern, is this systemic, I don't know, but I'm starting to believe it might be.
Having said that, police need to, and should, focus on high crime neighborhoods...why would they waste resources where there are few problems?
Unfortunately, the vast majority of the high crime neighborhood tend to be black...it is not a racial thing, it is a social-economic reality...they are poor.
Are poor black neighborhoods being over policed, or treated too aggressively? Again, I don't know. Maybe the cops should stop showing up, and we'll see how that works out?
Where are the positive role models in these communities? Where are the dads? Why isn't education being championed and stressed more..you can't all be rap stars and basketball players...and the default position should not be some low level street thug peddling crack. That should never be an option or alternative.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 2, 2015 13:49:52 GMT -5
I guess Dershowitz is privy to all of the evidence and studied it thoroughly before drawing his conclusions If Joe citizen put a baby loose in the back of a cargo van and it died of spine trauma what do you think they would be charged with?
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on May 2, 2015 14:04:16 GMT -5
Frank Z, I hear you, but I think this DA was a little too quick to judgement...it may, in fact, backfire on her.
She cast a wide net to appease public outcry...the convictions will be few, if any. I'm not saying that is right or wrong, I just see it that way.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 2, 2015 14:35:03 GMT -5
Homicide + at the least negligent police + bad arrest in the first place= what would be the point of waiting to file charges?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 2, 2015 14:57:24 GMT -5
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 2, 2015 16:33:25 GMT -5
I think environment could play a large part in how different altercations with police go down. Saying it's due to racism implies that the same police officer wouldn't have done the same thing, in the same set of circumstances, at that moment if the skin color of the person was different....and honestly that may not be the case. So it really could be that race really isn't the issue, but because we keep promoting it as the issue, it promotes an even higher level of distrust between police and AA, which leads to AA acting/reacting differently toward police, and police toward AA. See what I mean. I post that we don't want to discuss class. You quote me and make no mention of class. You continue to discuss race. I was actually agreeing with you and explaining why I agreed with you when explaining that racism may be the wrong focus in the situation and the overall environment may be a larger piece of the issue.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 2, 2015 16:34:36 GMT -5
See what I mean. I post that we don't want to discuss class. You quote me and make no mention of class. You continue to discuss race. I was actually agreeing with you and explaining why I agreed with you when explaining that racism may be the wrong focus in the situation and the overall environment may be a larger piece of the issue. Class?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 2, 2015 16:34:49 GMT -5
It might be different when you have people on tape, and I'm guessing murder has a higher threshold than whatever the 95 people are being charged with doing.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on May 2, 2015 16:36:42 GMT -5
I was actually agreeing with you and explaining why I agreed with you when explaining that racism may be the wrong focus in the situation and the overall environment may be a larger piece of the issue. Class? I don't know that socio-economic class is really it either because there are lower socioeconomic areas that don't have high crime rates, and I'm guessing (since I don't have any stats to back it up) that police in higher poverty/low crime areas probably act differently than police in high poverty/high crime areas. They may even act differently based on the population density of the area.
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