billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 28, 2015 23:36:59 GMT -5
Black kid with a gun
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Apr 29, 2015 1:39:04 GMT -5
I should adjust my argument- don't have to be racist to be this stupid- the videos speak for themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 2:07:45 GMT -5
The reports I have been hearing is that these are not the outsiders as was the case in Ferguson. These are locals . I also have not heard about the ratio of minority cops to population as we did in Ferguson. Maybe the races of the police force is more in line with the community here? I don't know and don't have time to dig today. not to pick on you, but what's your source? I'm not there either, but my source is right there trying to keep the peace. CNN today. They were reporting on the arrests. Ages and where they were from.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Apr 29, 2015 5:13:16 GMT -5
not to pick on you, but what's your source? I'm not there either, but my source is right there trying to keep the peace. CNN today. They were reporting on the arrests. Ages and where they were from. interesting. again, not what I'm hearing from a guy that's in the middle of it. thanks for answering.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Apr 29, 2015 5:45:43 GMT -5
I live in metro Chicago and we have had our share of destructive riots; the worst of which was the Martin Luther King murder ones and the 1968 (?) Democratic convention (Daley's shoot to kill order).
Shoot to kill does NOT work. It only backfires on the politician or police chief ordering it.
I have NEVER understood why people..........deficate where they eat & sleep. Seems totally counterproductive to me.
I hope places like Sports Authority & CVS just let the burntout hulks of their stores stand as long as possible. These hooligans do NOT need or deserve to have the stores replaced EVER. let them travel for their needs or pay upo the wazoo at a convienece store & see how much they like it.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 6:18:28 GMT -5
I understand wanting justice for this. However, you didn't even give them a chance to complete the investigation before you started tearing the town apart.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 29, 2015 6:35:37 GMT -5
I wonder, If the police had came out right away, Stated what Freddie Grey had been arrested for other than just running from the police, stated what the charges were and gave him medical treatment.
This would not be happening NOW.
By the way, just what were the charges anyway??
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 7:05:44 GMT -5
I should adjust my argument- don't have to be racist to be this stupid- the videos speak for themselves. Of course you're assuming that happens in all or most cases with a black and white men who have guns....which is debatable to say the least. Unless of course you honestly believe there aren't examples of black men with guns who didn't get shot by police or you honestly don't believe there are white men without guns who haven't been killed by police. I realize that those don't really make national news, but I'm guessing most people do realize they happen...but it doesn't make for as good of headlines.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 29, 2015 7:17:23 GMT -5
Thanks. While it might show how some police treat people differently, it doesn't back up your claim that police are on a mission to kill black men in their custody. No one said that did they? The whole enchilada is that police stereotype and make assumptions about black suspects- and in many cases kill those suspects based on either fear or prejudice. That is the obvious problem.
Do I need to show the white guy with a gun video again?
White man with a gun:
www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html
They will just sit down and have a conversation about it. If anyone thinks that a black person would be given this kind of latitude then you are the stupidest racist on the planet.
Weltz did, in reply #19. Though I imagine she was exaggerating a bit to try and make a point.
Look, bottom line for me is this. I think police should be held accountable for their actions and performance, just like other professionals.
Is there a racial bias among police? I'm sure among certain departments and individuals, yes, there is. Is that a problem? You bet it is. Should we try to fix it? Absolutely.
Is it a massive, systemic problem infecting all aspects of the justice system? I don't see the evidence of that.
But I don't see value in taking a sledgehammer to the problem when a surgical laser might be better. And the fact of the matter is that Officers have a tough job. And although they should be held accountable for their actions, they also should have some protections and "reasonable doubt" given. In other words, they should have due process of law given.
I think part of the problem in these cases is we keep talking about the "macro" problem of racial bias in law enforcement, while also talking about specific cases like this. In actuality, each case is different, and the discussion between systemic racial bias and the specific cases in Baltimore and Ferguson and elsewhere means the issue constantly gets muddied and confusing. I'm guilty of this as much as anyone.
So, getting back on topic for Baltimore, the officers in question were suspended pending investigation. They haven't been charged with a crime yet, but they aren't off the hook yet either. I personally don't see a problem with that. But I am confused as to why that's so wrong, and what these protesters really want and how is vandalism and injuring police going to help? Do they want a murder charge without evidence? Do they want these officers publicly hanged? There's no leadership anywhere I can see making specific demands and presenting a plan.
Like WVUGURL said, don't you at least want to wait and see the results of the investigation and see if they're charged with a crime before you start burning down your neighborhood?
And even if they're fired and charged with a crime, it likely will be wrongful death, certainly not murder.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 29, 2015 7:19:18 GMT -5
It's just another opportunity to steal.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Apr 29, 2015 7:22:04 GMT -5
I should adjust my argument- don't have to be racist to be this stupid- the videos speak for themselves. Of course you're assuming that happens in all or most cases with a black and white men who have guns....which is debatable to say the least. Unless of course you honestly believe there aren't examples of black men with guns who didn't get shot by police or you honestly don't believe there are white men without guns who haven't been killed by police. I realize that those don't really make national news, but I'm guessing most people do realize they happen...but it doesn't make for as good of headlines. Yeah, I think a lot of this "racial bias" is cherry picked by the media. After all, nothing gets readers like racially charged stories.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2015 7:33:40 GMT -5
... They haven't been charged with a crime yet, but they aren't off the hook yet either. I personally don't see a problem with that. ... Do they want a murder charge without evidence? ... Like WVUGURL said, don't you at least want to wait and see the results of the investigation and see if they're charged with a crime before you start burning down your neighborhood? ... It takes time for an investigation before charges can be filled Charges were filed Saturday in a fatal stabbing on Friday Sometimes
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 10:35:37 GMT -5
I think part of the problem is the protesters know the rules are different for the police, the incident happened on April 19th. The police are at fault, the only real questions are how at fault and how provable it will be. If a civilian had committed a similar crime they likely would be held for three days and charged with a crime, in other words, charges would be filed and they might be out on bond.
While we do want to make sure all evidence is gathered to protect police departments when they are doing the right thing, we should not let them stonewall and cover up evidence when they so obviously did the wrong thing. The fact that a week and a half has already passed means the fear of the protesters is valid. The city of Baltimore, funded by taxpayers with a real issue, is using taxpayer money to protect and lower charges for criminals who just happened to wear police uniforms.
We didn't mean to damage him so much he died, should not be a defense. Just sayin.
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 29, 2015 10:35:50 GMT -5
I live in metro Chicago and we have had our share of destructive riots; the worst of which was the Martin Luther King murder ones and the 1968 (?) Democratic convention (Daley's shoot to kill order).
Shoot to kill does NOT work. It only backfires on the politician or police chief ordering it.
I have NEVER understood why people..........deficate where they eat & sleep. Seems totally counterproductive to me.
I hope places like Sports Authority & CVS just let the burntout hulks of their stores stand as long as possible. These hooligans do NOT need or deserve to have the stores replaced EVER. let them travel for their needs or pay upo the wazoo at a convienece store & see how much they like it. News reports showed community members at CVS taking out the damaged shelves and wood and passing it down a line of people. An old fashioned bucket brigade solving a modern day problem.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 10:39:19 GMT -5
i agree that it should not be condoned, i disagree that this is "hurting yourself". the object is to hurt the fabric of society, and i think it is quite effective at doing that. the objective is the same for suicide bombings. that is also quite effective. which is why it will never stop. Very well said DJ. I think there is deep rage that unfortunately felt the need to express itself as a riot. Happened in the past too. I've been told the race riots in Newark, NJ. were pretty bad. Letting police essentially kill someone and for nothing appear to happen is going to invoke some deep deep feelings. I do not condone the violence any more than I condone people breaking shit when they are angry, but that's humans for you.
Contain the riots, but some justice needs to be dished up. Serve some justice, the 'need' for these riots should disappear.
when the people that are there to protect you are, instead, killing you, i think chaos is an entirely understandable response.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 10:41:48 GMT -5
I understand wanting justice for this. However, you didn't even give them a chance to complete the investigation before you started tearing the town apart. again, it is quite rare for the wheels of justice to work in FAVOR of the community when it comes to police violence. sometimes a bad cop will get a wristslap. more typically, the department finds no fault. with a background like that, it is actually not that difficult to understand this response.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 10:43:14 GMT -5
... They haven't been charged with a crime yet, but they aren't off the hook yet either. I personally don't see a problem with that. ... Do they want a murder charge without evidence? ...Like WVUGURL said, don't you at least want to wait and see the results of the investigation and see if they're charged with a crime before you start burning down your neighborhood? ... It takes time for an investigation before charges can be filled Charges were filed Saturday in a fatal stabbing on Friday Sometimes That happens because it is a civilian criminal Bills. When you have similar damning evidence on the police, the longer it takes to be investigated seems to correlate well to how low the charges will be brought down for the trial which will yet again end in a result of justice denied and basically letting the community know its business as usual.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 10:44:31 GMT -5
I should adjust my argument- don't have to be racist to be this stupid- the videos speak for themselves. Of course you're assuming that happens in all or most cases with a black and white men who have guns....which is debatable to say the least. Unless of course you honestly believe there aren't examples of black men with guns who didn't get shot by police or you honestly don't believe there are white men without guns who haven't been killed by police. I realize that those don't really make national news, but I'm guessing most people do realize they happen...but it doesn't make for as good of headlines. actually, it DOES happen, and it IS reported on. however, it is quite rare, and i think it would be well to consider why.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 10:48:00 GMT -5
No one said that did they? The whole enchilada is that police stereotype and make assumptions about black suspects- and in many cases kill those suspects based on either fear or prejudice. That is the obvious problem.
Do I need to show the white guy with a gun video again?
White man with a gun:
www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html
They will just sit down and have a conversation about it. If anyone thinks that a black person would be given this kind of latitude then you are the stupidest racist on the planet.
Weltz did, in reply #19. Though I imagine she was exaggerating a bit to try and make a point.
Look, bottom line for me is this. I think police should be held accountable for their actions and performance, just like other professionals.
Is there a racial bias among police? I'm sure among certain departments and individuals, yes, there is. Is that a problem? You bet it is. Should we try to fix it? Absolutely.
Is it a massive, systemic problem infecting all aspects of the justice system? I don't see the evidence of that. you might be right. there might not be a systemic racist problem. but i think there IS a systemic violence problem, Phoenix. i really do. half this argument is about the TARGET of violence. but for me, the other half is the violence itself.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 10:48:28 GMT -5
Baltimore has fired cops before. It's not unheard of. I just think you should let it play out first. If it plays out and you don't like it and protest okay. If you try to burn the town down before they get a chance to find out how it happened then you get zero support from me. All I'm seeing is a bunch of thugs causing problems.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 10:48:32 GMT -5
Of course you're assuming that happens in all or most cases with a black and white men who have guns....which is debatable to say the least. Unless of course you honestly believe there aren't examples of black men with guns who didn't get shot by police or you honestly don't believe there are white men without guns who haven't been killed by police. I realize that those don't really make national news, but I'm guessing most people do realize they happen...but it doesn't make for as good of headlines. Yeah, I think a lot of this "racial bias" is cherry picked by the media. After all, nothing gets readers like racially charged stories. i think that is a very dangerous assumption.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 10:49:34 GMT -5
Baltimore has fired cops before. It's not unheard of. I just think you should let it okay out first. If it plays out and you don't like it and protest okay. If you try to burn the town down before they get a chance to find out how it happened then you get zero support from me. All I'm seeing is a bunch of thugs causing problems. i half agree with this. but disciplinary action was actually not what i was talking about. i was talking about the kind of justice a civilian could expect. edit: OPTI said it better in post 105.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 10:57:40 GMT -5
Of course you're assuming that happens in all or most cases with a black and white men who have guns....which is debatable to say the least. Unless of course you honestly believe there aren't examples of black men with guns who didn't get shot by police or you honestly don't believe there are white men without guns who haven't been killed by police. I realize that those don't really make national news, but I'm guessing most people do realize they happen...but it doesn't make for as good of headlines. actually, it DOES happen, and it IS reported on. however, it is quite rare, and i think it would be well to consider why. What's quiet rare?
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Peace77
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Post by Peace77 on Apr 29, 2015 10:59:20 GMT -5
Baltimore has fired cops before. It's not unheard of. I just think you should let it play out first. If it plays out and you don't like it and protest okay. If you try to burn the town down before they get a chance to find out how it happened then you get zero support from me. All I'm seeing is a bunch of thugs causing problems. The negative is getting lots more publicity but there are positives. There was a brief video of Cindi and woman who got out her broom, dust pan and garbage can to start cleaning up while the protestors were still on the street. Others allo over town followed her example and cleaned up. The young people from various drum and dance corps came out to do something positive instead of causing damage. Ray Lewis recorded a video denouncing violence and ordering people to Go Home.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 11:00:19 GMT -5
I think any prosecutor would want all the facts first. The autopsy isn't 100% complete. And maybe the city prosecutor doesn't do it but DOJ. I've seen it happen for corruption which is a far lesser charge than murder. And they are probably trying to see how deep it goes and if they can handle it.
They are damned no matter what. Rush to file charges and lose because you didn't have all the facts straight and you are wrong, wait to get the facts and you are accused of letting them slide.
The PD has major problems but I do think things are turning around. The mayor asked for an outside investigation. I think they deserve a chance to issue their report.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 11:00:26 GMT -5
I understand wanting justice for this. However, you didn't even give them a chance to complete the investigation before you started tearing the town apart. How much time should they need? This entire incident began in motion on April 12th. Today is April 29th. A week and a half ago he Gray died from his injuries. PB is not acknowledging the text I'm trying to cut and paste here from Wiki, but on April 13th, they already had evidence that the police lied on their reports. He was not arrested without incident, without force. In fact evidence exists that force was used. That police knowing lied.
If it wasn't police officers involved, the only people they'd spend this much time investigating IMO is political figures or the very wealthy. Not because of evidence. But because of CYA and lawyer/prosecution issues. JMO.
You really want no more rioting in Baltimore? Do something novel. Actually punish the criminal cops and do it quickly. Clean up the department and suck up the fact its time to let rough riding, etc. go. Because if you don't, and since its April 29 I can safely guess they won't, there will be another riot when the carefully scripted trial ends and the cops are barely punished.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 11:00:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I think a lot of this "racial bias" is cherry picked by the media. After all, nothing gets readers like racially charged stories. i think that is a very dangerous assumption. So with all the incidents that police across the country on a daily basis, you don't think the media is cherry picking certain stories because it makes for better headlines? Or do you not think evidence of police misconduct can be found against people of all different races and nationalities?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 11:03:55 GMT -5
I understand wanting justice for this. However, you didn't even give them a chance to complete the investigation before you started tearing the town apart. How much time should they need? This entire incident began in motion on April 12th. Today is April 29th. A week and a half ago he Gray died from his injuries. PB is not acknowledging the text I'm trying to cut and paste here from Wiki, but on April 13th, they already had evidence that the police lied on their reports. He was not arrested without incident, without force. In fact evidence exists that force was used. That police knowing lied.
If it wasn't police officers involved, the only people they'd spend this much time investigating IMO is political figures or the very wealthy. Not because of evidence. But because of CYA and lawyer/prosecution issues. JMO.
You really want no more rioting in Baltimore? Do something novel. Actually punish the criminal cops and do it quickly. Clean up the department and suck up the fact its time to let rough riding, etc. go. Because if you don't, and since its April 29 I can safely guess they won't, there will be another riot when the carefully scripted trial ends and the cops are barely punished.
So your bias is fufulled either way. If the cops get punished, it's because of the riots and thus justifies the need for them...if the cops get off, it's a corrupt system covering for the police?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 11:08:36 GMT -5
Did you miss the part about an incomplete autopsy report? You want to file charges before he died? 11 days from death to complete an investigation and autopsy does not seem like they are dragging their feet. This shit doesn't happen overnight like on CSI. And who knows when the outside group got there to start the investigation. I would much rather they do an accurate investigation than go file charges they might not be able to back up because they want someone to pay and it doesn't matter who.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Apr 29, 2015 11:12:25 GMT -5
... I agree, people these days seem to forget the basic tenants of criminal law. The accused is entitled to investigations, presumption of innocence, the due process of law, and innocence until proven guilty. ... A group of guys grab someone off the street, toss him in the back of a van, deliver him within an hour to a hospital with serious trauma from which the guy dies and an autopsy indicates the guy's neck is 80% severed. Tell me that the police wouldn't see probable cause to arrest and hold the guys who did that. I think a big part of the outrage is there has still not been an official statement from the police as to cause of death. Apparently this type of abuse - handcuffing someone, throwing them in the back of the van, failing to seatbelt them into a seat and then driving wildly through the city - is so common it has several nicknames in Baltimore, including 'rough riding.' The city has paid out millions in lawsuits over the past four years because of people injured by this practise. So I think the people of Baltimore have a pretty good idea what the cause of death was, even though the police aren't saying. I understand the people of Baltimore, especially the poor people, are sick of police abuse, but the scum that always scuttle in during this kind of unrest to take advantage of the chaos by looting and destroying property need to be arrested and charged. Most of the video I've seen had pretty good pictures of a lot of faces, should be easy to convict.
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