Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 11:14:45 GMT -5
Baltimore has fired cops before. It's not unheard of. I just think you should let it play out first. If it plays out and you don't like it and protest okay. If you try to burn the town down before they get a chance to find out how it happened then you get zero support from me. All I'm seeing is a bunch of thugs causing problems. Firing them is one thing, but they killed someone. Not passively, not by mistake, maybe thinking they'd get close and he'd live, but they did it. Just getting fired and banned from police work forever seems insufficient punishment for a 6 versus 1 situation.
If an ambulance driver/EMT pair did a rough ride on a patient and transported him so roughly he died, do you think it would have taken anywhere near this time to charge them? Being fired would be the least of it. They might be banned from healthcare and serving jail time.
I don't approve of them causing problems, but I understand it. They are protesting because it is already obvious that justice will not play out in their favor. If at least one of these cops goes to jail for man slaughter, I'll be shocked but heartened. The Boston bomber is getting life sentences for people he killed. If the cop who killed BMW guy gets a similar life sentence my belief in the justice system will be restored somewhat. The cop who riddled the black guy in the car with an overkill of bullets also avoided all man slaughter charges.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 11:18:21 GMT -5
Weltz did, in reply #19. Though I imagine she was exaggerating a bit to try and make a point.
Look, bottom line for me is this. I think police should be held accountable for their actions and performance, just like other professionals.
Is there a racial bias among police? I'm sure among certain departments and individuals, yes, there is. Is that a problem? You bet it is. Should we try to fix it? Absolutely.
Is it a massive, systemic problem infecting all aspects of the justice system? I don't see the evidence of that. you might be right. there might not be a systemic racist problem. but i think there IS a systemic violence problem, Phoenix. i really do. half this argument is about the TARGET of violence. but for me, the other half is the violence itself. I've already asked the question of how much of the way police officers respond in different communities has to with skin color or the crime rate within the community. If an area is a higher crime area, it is quite likely the police will let fewer things slide that they might let slide in other areas. So how much is due to racial bias and how much is due to police acting more forcefully in higher crime areas that happen to be predominantly AA?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 11:19:36 GMT -5
i think that is a very dangerous assumption. So with all the incidents that police across the country on a daily basis, you don't think the media is cherry picking certain stories because it makes for better headlines? Or do you not think evidence of police misconduct can be found against people of all different races and nationalities? I think if there were similar cases of white cop white perp or black cop black perp that showed similar negligence they'd make the news too. Especially if it showed what these stories have been, cops on film, with evidence of wrong doing consistently getting away with murder.
Freddie Gray and BMW guy are horrifically blatant. Its like the universe is serving up examples in hopes some police department somewhere will finally step up and fix itself.
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 11:19:47 GMT -5
They may be driving like idiots but given the condition of roads in the city after winter, no one is in for a smooth ride! They had potholes that would swallow a baby. I get they are mad but try picking something that doesn't turn people against you. I do think many were protesting peacefully and some thugs took advantage to get some free stuff.
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 11:31:21 GMT -5
How much time should they need? This entire incident began in motion on April 12th. Today is April 29th. A week and a half ago he Gray died from his injuries. PB is not acknowledging the text I'm trying to cut and paste here from Wiki, but on April 13th, they already had evidence that the police lied on their reports. He was not arrested without incident, without force. In fact evidence exists that force was used. That police knowing lied.
If it wasn't police officers involved, the only people they'd spend this much time investigating IMO is political figures or the very wealthy. Not because of evidence. But because of CYA and lawyer/prosecution issues. JMO.
You really want no more rioting in Baltimore? Do something novel. Actually punish the criminal cops and do it quickly. Clean up the department and suck up the fact its time to let rough riding, etc. go. Because if you don't, and since its April 29 I can safely guess they won't, there will be another riot when the carefully scripted trial ends and the cops are barely punished.
So your bias is fufulled either way. If the cops get punished, it's because of the riots and thus justifies the need for them...if the cops get off, it's a corrupt system covering for the police? I do have bias. The cops should be punished because they are guilty. They should be charged now because the investigation is most likely finished. What is taking time is the CYA and planning of defense of the cops involved, the police department, and the city.
If the cops get off it will because IMO they planned to get them off. I don't see this even as fuzzy as the cigarette seller death. Sometimes cops and criminals get off because the evidence chain is weak. We don't want to this to be a case of cops/criminals getting off because they destroyed or suppressed evidence.
If he had a freak medical condition that cause his spine to be severed 80% from his neck, before he was forcibly dragged, someone might want to publicize that if it came up in a trial. Do you think there would have been rioting in Boston if the Marathon Bomber has been found not guilty or got off with just a slap of the wrist? (I do. He's guilty, there is no doubt. Similar here, but blame/actions will need to be apportioned out. )
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 11:39:04 GMT -5
They may be driving like idiots but given the condition of roads in the city after winter, no one is in for a smooth ride! They had potholes that would swallow a baby. I get they are mad but try picking something that doesn't turn people against you. I do think many were protesting peacefully and some thugs took advantage to get some free stuff. You are closer to it than I am, but I saw the protesters on TV on break, multiple days/times. In the unlikely event this turns out to be simply negligent homicide, the sooner the charges happen, the sooner the trial the better. This is Baltimore's Boston bombing.
They aren't mad. They are furious.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 11:50:19 GMT -5
I never said their emotions were wrong. The way some chose to express it detracts from the problem. The city and PD have problems without a doubt. This doesn't help though. I want to see the investigation before I pass judgment on them.
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 29, 2015 12:01:10 GMT -5
They may be driving like idiots but given the condition of roads in the city after winter, no one is in for a smooth ride! They had potholes that would swallow a baby. I get they are mad but try picking something that doesn't turn people against you. I do think many were protesting peacefully and some thugs took advantage to get some free stuff. All the more reason to belt a suspect in, but they didn't. A "nickel ride" is systemic.
Many suspect that Gray was the victim of a “Nickel Ride”, a horrific police torture tactic where a suspect is handcuffed and placed in the back of a police van without restraints, and driven recklessly around town by police officers. This practice has also been called a “Rough Ride” or a “Cowboy Ride.”
“We know he was not buckled in the transportation wagon, as he should have been. No excuses for that, period,” Baltimore Police Commissioner Anthony Batts said Friday. “We know our police employees failed to get him medical attention in a timely manner multiple times.”
Read more at thefreethoughtproject.com/freddie-grays-death-reveals-dark-history-nickel-rides-police-van-torture/#zCQ086HhUahOrUwB.99
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 12:52:07 GMT -5
They may be driving like idiots but given the condition of roads in the city after winter, no one is in for a smooth ride! They had potholes that would swallow a baby. I get they are mad but try picking something that doesn't turn people against you. I do think many were protesting peacefully and some thugs took advantage to get some free stuff. You are closer to it than I am, but I saw the protesters on TV on break, multiple days/times. In the unlikely event this turns out to be simply negligent homicide, the sooner the charges happen, the sooner the trial the better. This is Baltimore's Boston bombing.
They aren't mad. They are furious.
Yeah they are furious. It will be interesting to see when they are furious about the other 200+ murders in Baltimore a year.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 14:06:46 GMT -5
You are closer to it than I am, but I saw the protesters on TV on break, multiple days/times. In the unlikely event this turns out to be simply negligent homicide, the sooner the charges happen, the sooner the trial the better. This is Baltimore's Boston bombing.
They aren't mad. They are furious.
Yeah they are furious. It will be interesting to see when they are furious about the other 200+ murders in Baltimore a year. Useless red herring. Those murderers aren't paid by you as a taxpayer, they aren't sworn to protect and serve.
They are furious about this because it might happen to them. It may not worry you because you don't envision that happening to you. On the other hand, you might be afraid of death by crazed Internet stalker even if statistically rarer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 14:14:17 GMT -5
Yeah they are furious. It will be interesting to see when they are furious about the other 200+ murders in Baltimore a year. Useless red herring. Those murderers aren't paid by you as a taxpayer, they aren't sworn to protect and serve.
They are furious about this because it might happen to them. It may not worry you because you don't envision that happening to you. On the other hand, you might be afraid of death by crazed Internet stalker even if statistically rarer.
I grew up in Baltimore's low income housing, right next to the projects. I went k-12 in Baltimore's schools. I am just not buying the rage. They have big problems. The cops aren't one of those big problems IMHO.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 14:51:52 GMT -5
I think any prosecutor would want all the facts first. false dichotomy. most cops are never tried.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 14:52:48 GMT -5
i think that is a very dangerous assumption. So with all the incidents that police across the country on a daily basis, you don't think the media is cherry picking certain stories because it makes for better headlines? i think the press is sensationalistic, but i don't think racism plays ANY role in the SELECTION process.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Apr 29, 2015 14:55:17 GMT -5
I think any prosecutor would want all the facts first. false dichotomy. most cops are never tried. Kind of hard to decide what to do with them without the facts.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 14:56:11 GMT -5
you might be right. there might not be a systemic racist problem. but i think there IS a systemic violence problem, Phoenix. i really do. half this argument is about the TARGET of violence. but for me, the other half is the violence itself. I've already asked the question of how much of the way police officers respond in different communities has to with skin color or the crime rate within the community. If an area is a higher crime area, it is quite likely the police will let fewer things slide that they might let slide in other areas. So how much is due to racial bias and how much is due to police acting more forcefully in higher crime areas that happen to be predominantly AA? i don't think that question is easy to answer, so i am not going to attempt it. but i am sure others will.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 14:56:46 GMT -5
false dichotomy. most cops are never tried. Kind of hard to decide what to do with them without the facts. ditto for all of the poor bastards who are beaten and shot for no reason, wouldn't you say?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 15:07:46 GMT -5
Useless red herring. Those murderers aren't paid by you as a taxpayer, they aren't sworn to protect and serve.
They are furious about this because it might happen to them. It may not worry you because you don't envision that happening to you. On the other hand, you might be afraid of death by crazed Internet stalker even if statistically rarer.
I grew up in Baltimore's low income housing, right next to the projects. I went k-12 in Baltimore's schools. I am just not buying the rage. They have big problems. The cops aren't one of those big problems IMHO. Luckily its not necessary for us to agree.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Apr 29, 2015 17:01:14 GMT -5
Some good news to report showing the community coming together:
A single mom with a 7 yo son with CP lost everything due to a fire at a liquor store next to her, including a $10k special wheel chair. Donations are coming in and a local radio station pledged to replace the wheel chair.
The Baltimore Sympathy Orchestra is right now putting on an outdoor concert.
Other news:
There are large groups of peaceful protesters marching.
Businesses either never opened or are talking about the 4 hours of lost revenue due to the curfew.
People needing their CVS prescriptions must go a distance to another store. I bet many of them used to walk to get them.
An 18 yo arrested for destroying 7 police cars and posting it on fb is still in jail. Can't make bail. Oh so sorry for him..NOT.
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2015 18:26:17 GMT -5
... An 18 yo arrested for destroying 7 police cars and posting it on fb is still in jail. Can't make bail. Oh so sorry for him..NOT. Arrested? In jail? Bail set? This was after months of investigation, right?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 19:53:21 GMT -5
So with all the incidents that police across the country on a daily basis, you don't think the media is cherry picking certain stories because it makes for better headlines? i think the press is sensationalistic, but i don't think racism plays ANY role in the SELECTION process. So you think it's just a coincidence that the stories shown on a national level happen to be white cops and AA victims? One of the complaints I've heard that leads to a racial bias against AA is how they are portrayed on television and that bias can affect the way people interact with AA. So I have ask if that is the case, how is that not the same thing the national media is doing to police officers. When the focus is only on incidents like this one, is it possible that the bias people are talking about can be somewhat selffufilling. Basically if people treat AA differently because of the negative stereotypes shown in the media, then wouldn't the same logic apply if the only news shown on a national stage is showing cops doing things like this...and if that is the case, would that make AA more likely to act differently toward police, which leads the police to act differently toward them. I'm asking some real questions here..I don't think it's as simple as people would like to make it out to be.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Apr 29, 2015 19:55:00 GMT -5
I've already asked the question of how much of the way police officers respond in different communities has to with skin color or the crime rate within the community. If an area is a higher crime area, it is quite likely the police will let fewer things slide that they might let slide in other areas. So how much is due to racial bias and how much is due to police acting more forcefully in higher crime areas that happen to be predominantly AA? i don't think that question is easy to answer, so i am not going to attempt it. but i am sure others will. I'm simply offering that there may be more to these situations than simply racial bias that so many people want to point to as the main reason. I'm not saying whether it does or doesn't play a role, simply pointing out that there is more to it and simply saying it is because of racial bias oversimplifies it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 19:58:35 GMT -5
i don't think that question is easy to answer, so i am not going to attempt it. but i am sure others will. I'm simply offering that there may be more to these situations than simply racial bias that so many people want to point to as the main reason. I'm not saying whether it does or doesn't play a role, simply pointing out that there is more to it and simply saying it is because of racial bias oversimplifies it. thanks for the offering.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 20:00:13 GMT -5
i think the press is sensationalistic, but i don't think racism plays ANY role in the SELECTION process. So you think it's just a coincidence that the stories shown on a national level happen to be white cops and AA victims? i already told you what i think. i think the press is sensationalistic, and these are sensational stories. i don't think racism plays into it at all.
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 29, 2015 20:01:46 GMT -5
i think the press is sensationalistic, but i don't think racism plays ANY role in the SELECTION process. So you think it's just a coincidence that the stories shown on a national level happen to be white cops and AA victims? One of the complaints I've heard that leads to a racial bias against AA is how they are portrayed on television and that bias can affect the way people interact with AA. So I have ask if that is the case, how is that not the same thing the national media is doing to police officers. When the focus is only on incidents like this one, is it possible that the bias people are talking about can be somewhat selffufilling. Basically if people treat AA differently because of the negative stereotypes shown in the media, then wouldn't the same logic apply if the only news shown on a national stage is showing cops doing things like this...and if that is the case, would that make AA more likely to act differently toward police, which leads the police to act differently toward them. I'm asking some real questions here..I don't think it's as simple as people would like to make it out to be. i don't think i am oversimplifying. i have spent a lot of time studying the institution of the press, and i don't think that the institution is all that complicated. they are trying to sell beer and cars, and running stories that have a lot of lurid details do that.
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Post by Ryan on Apr 29, 2015 20:31:51 GMT -5
Realistically, the rioting will probably do some good. If it got no news attention, nothing would've changed. Now cops will think twice about how they treat people in the community.
It's easy to blame the rioters, esp when a lot of them just showed up to cause some destruction, but cops have gotten away with being above the law for too long. A cop in nearby town was drunk, driving the wrong way on a highway, killed someone, and still was on paid leave for far too long. I'm Chicago, a cop was picked up for a DUI after beating someone up and they waited 12 hours before giving breathalyzer!
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Apr 29, 2015 21:02:27 GMT -5
... An 18 yo arrested for destroying 7 police cars and posting it on fb is still in jail. Can't make bail. Oh so sorry for him..NOT. Arrested? In jail? Bail set? This was after months of investigation, right? Not sure of your point. He was arrested. They have 48 hours to charge anyone. He was charged based on video evidence (some of it was his fb posts showing him in action) and bail was set. Investigation will be by the prosecutor and defense attorney for trial.
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Post by Opti on Apr 29, 2015 21:36:41 GMT -5
... An 18 yo arrested for destroying 7 police cars and posting it on fb is still in jail. Can't make bail. Oh so sorry for him..NOT. Arrested? In jail? Bail set? This was after months of investigation, right?
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Post by b2r on Apr 29, 2015 22:08:03 GMT -5
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Post by b2r on Apr 29, 2015 22:09:17 GMT -5
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Post by billisonboard on Apr 29, 2015 22:58:09 GMT -5
Arrested? In jail? Bail set? This was after months of investigation, right? Not sure of your point. He was arrested. They have 48 hours to charge anyone. He was charged based on video evidence (some of it was his fb posts showing him in action) and bail was set. Investigation will be by the prosecutor and defense attorney for trial. So, he was arrested, charged, bail set, and now the prosecutor will be investigating. Let's look at a different situation. A man ran away from police presence, he was chased down, cuffed and tossed into a police van, he was held in constant custody, he slipped into a coma, he was taken to the hospital, and a week later died. His spine was 80% severed. So is there evidence to arrest, charge, set bail, and then investigate?
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