Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 11:58:14 GMT -5
"I think this is a big problem nowadays. Most divorced women aren't looking for a companion/love/etc... They are looking for someone to help take care of their kids, cut grass, handyman, take them out to eat. Most divorced men are looking for a cook, clothes washer, house cleaner. That's why people are willing to settle. Maybe I missed it but did she talk about loving this man?" Wonderfully said. Karma for you . She needs to address why she originally felt like she "had" to get married and why she "needs" to be supported. Really, how is she any better than her "sugur mama" husband? She wanted to get married and be supported, but instead got married and supported. Instead of looking for another man-meal-tickit, she should get help and in the right place so she can find a true partner.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 5, 2011 12:02:22 GMT -5
<<< I think you also missed the part >>> ...I can't deny that threads like this can become confusing about who said what, etc....
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 12:11:11 GMT -5
"If you loved a person and their job was x and they got up faithfully and went to x job, why isn't that enough?"
Because the act and motivation isn't enough for many women. It's not about the other person and the sacrifices they make, it's about the $$$.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 12:13:44 GMT -5
"If you loved a person and their job was x and they got up faithfully and went to x job, why isn't that enough?" Because the act and motivation isn't enough for many women. It's not about the other person and the sacrifices they make, it's about the $$$. It's not so much the money as it is the ability to buy pretty shoes:p
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 12:14:23 GMT -5
"She has also told her husband that she no longer desires him because of his lack of earning capacity. If I were a man or a woman and someone said that to me, I'd be outa there so fast"
I agree Zib. I can't think of a much more hurtful thing to say. If someone told me I wasn't making enough money, I would probably leave too because I know I've done the best I could. I'd feel the same way if someone said I "wasn't living up to my potential." How does anyone else but you know what your potential is?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 5, 2011 12:16:03 GMT -5
"If you loved a person and their job was x and they got up faithfully and went to x job, why isn't that enough?" Because the act and motivation isn't enough for many women. It's not about the other person and the sacrifices they make, it's about the $$$. So you're willing to marry someone who works for mimimum wage? I fully admit I wouldn't marry a guy who didn't have a decent job. But on the flip side, my DH wouldn't have married me if I worked for minimum wage either. I guess we're both selfish jerks. whatever.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 12:16:24 GMT -5
"She has also told her husband that she no longer desires him because of his lack of earning capacity. If I were a man or a woman and someone said that to me, I'd be outa there so fast" I agree Zib. I can't think of a much more hurtful thing to say. If someone told me I wasn't making enough money, I would probably leave too because I know I've done the best I could. I'd feel the same way if someone said I "wasn't living up to my potential." How does anyone else but you know what your potential is? Easy...if, as part of your job description, you have to say "would you like fries with that" you are probably not living up to your potential.....
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 12:17:20 GMT -5
"If you loved a person and their job was x and they got up faithfully and went to x job, why isn't that enough?" Because the act and motivation isn't enough for many women. It's not about the other person and the sacrifices they make, it's about the $$$. So you're willing to marry someone who works for mimimum wage? I fully admit I wouldn't marry a guy who didn't have a decent job. But on the flip side, my DH wouldn't have married me if I worked for minimum wage either. I guess we're both selfish jerks. whatever. But you are happy in your selfish-jerkiness
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 5, 2011 12:18:54 GMT -5
We're happy being selfish jerks together. ;D
Oh yeah, and we're raising another generation of selfish jerks. Bonus!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 12:25:32 GMT -5
Money is great... but somehow i've never viewed the collection of it as the end all be all of my, or anyone else's "potential"....
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 5, 2011 12:27:45 GMT -5
I just re-read page 2 and realized I missed the part about not wanting to spend time with my kids. He would have been toast at that point. ... He didn't want to spend time with her kids and she didn't want to spend time with his kids. Her kids also didn't want to spend time with him. I think they both failed there, and so wasn't holding that against either side. As a step-child and sibling 2 times over, my parents didn't let us get away with that. DBro and I had time that we just spent with our biological parent, but we also had dinner as a family every night, we did activities as a whole group, even though we did not have the best relationships with either of our step-parents. DBro (who is almost 38) and the step-mom still have issues, but we learned as teenagers to put those aside for the sake of our father, and we learned that because our parents made us.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 12:28:57 GMT -5
"...interesting... while I can see where you are coming from, you lose me on the hard-line take of the "'til death do us part" wedding vows while skimming over the "for richer or poorer" part..."
Ah, sorry, that would have been a better wedding verse to quote to make my point. I wasn't taking a "hard line" as much as trying to make a point and writing down the first verse that came to mind. The point was you take a marriage vow to love and SUPPORT someone for the rest of their natural lives. To say you wouldn't support your spouse in times of need breaks those vows you take. As another poster pointed out, if you're not willing to support your spouse in bad times, why go through the whole charad? Or at least get rid of the "richer and poorer" and instead put in "as long as you can make the $$$ and support me."
"ETA: ah, you posted that you are single... maybe your views on marriage in general could be an interesting discussion to clarify what I didn't quite catch, but there's no need to go into that for the purposes of this thread... "
I don't mind summerizing my views on marriage. Essentially marriage means BOTH spouses putting the other before themselves. It means BOTH spouses supporting each other until the end of their natural lives. Obviously nothing is ever going to be 50/50 in every circumstance, but a honest and sincere effort should be made to share each others' burdens. The model some people seem to promote is what I call the "horse and rider." The horse is the one doing the work and "supporting" while the rider is "supported." To me this isn't a healthy relationship. Sometimes your ability to support your spouse diminishes, and it's up to the other spouse to pick up the slack.
In fact, there's a bible verse about being "evenly yoked" in a marriage that I believe in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 12:30:47 GMT -5
I also didn't quite understand, but it seemed to be that his kids were only there on some weekends. It can be very difficult to have 'blended' relationships with unequal time, and i can actually see if his kids wanted to spend some time with just their dad, and not all of that time with his 'new family'.... I agree with shane that i think the both probably didn't do everything they could here... blending families is hard word...
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 12:33:39 GMT -5
"So you're willing to marry someone who works for mimimum wage?"
Of course not. I want to marry someone who has ambition in life and can support a family in case I can't. That's not the life I want. On the flip side I want to be able to support a family if my spouse can't.
But if I marry someone and they end up in a minimum wage job due to no fault of their own, I'm not going to forsake my wedding vows over it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 12:43:01 GMT -5
"So you're willing to marry someone who works for mimimum wage?" Of course not. I want to marry someone who has ambition in life and can support a family in case I can't. That's not the life I want. On the flip side I want to be able to support a family if my spouse can't. But if I marry someone and they end up in a minimum wage job due to no fault of their own, I'm not going to forsake my wedding vows over it. And what if your future wife wakes up one day and decides she wants to quit the rat race and be a greeter at Wal-Mart?
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 5, 2011 13:32:32 GMT -5
<<< I don't mind summerizing my views on marriage. Essentially marriage means BOTH spouses putting the other before themselves. It means BOTH spouses supporting each other until the end of their natural lives. Obviously nothing is ever going to be 50/50 in every circumstance, but a honest and sincere effort should be made to share each others' burdens. The model some people seem to promote is what I call the "horse and rider." The horse is the one doing the work and "supporting" while the rider is "supported." To me this isn't a healthy relationship. Sometimes your ability to support your spouse diminishes, and it's up to the other spouse to pick up the slack. In fact, there's a bible verse about being "evenly yoked" in a marriage that I believe in. >>> ...fair enough... then will you'll allow this old horse to point something else out? ...the "evenly yoked" Bible verse serves as a good spring board to discuss models of marriage... and if a team of horses... married... evenly yoked... finds that one horse can't run as far, as hard, as fast... it can often make sense to put them into the wagon... one horse bears the brunt of the burden, but they, in turn, benefit from that wagon each and every time shelter is desired... ...I think this works as a better model, or a more accurate picture, of the SAHS... ...sure, the SAH may rebel against the idea... the horses have to compromise and accept a pace together that they find acceptable... whether it be to tether the slower horse to the wagon or to the yoke... ...but to expect both horses to equally run to their full capacity, together, at the same pace, is unrealistic... even if they are evenly matched in every way, there are still two "I"s in that team... and compromise must be made at some point... ...does this answer any questions? not really... but I hope it dispels a "horse and rider" attitude in a breadwinner's mind...
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 5, 2011 14:00:52 GMT -5
Here's my thing... if I had been the breadwinner in our situation, I would not have cared if DH had a good paying job or not as long as he was happy, but I also wouldn't have had kids or bought a house or done other things that might have required two middle incomes or one vastly higher income. If, however, DH randomly stopped working when expenses at a certain level were already planned for - I'd be pissed. Would I divorce him? No, but it'd piss me off.
Actually, I'd probably just figure out a way for neither one of us to work full time so we could both be slackers together. That sounds more fun.
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Mar 5, 2011 14:01:55 GMT -5
"So you're willing to marry someone who works for mimimum wage?" Of course not. I want to marry someone who has ambition in life and can support a family in case I can't. That's not the life I want. On the flip side I want to be able to support a family if my spouse can't. But if I marry someone and they end up in a minimum wage job due to no fault of their own, I'm not going to forsake my wedding vows over it. And what if your future wife wakes up one day and decides she wants to quit the rat race and be a greeter at Wal-Mart? If they were miserable in the rat race and we didn't have bills to pay? More power to them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 14:18:23 GMT -5
But there ARE bills to pay-from HIS failed businesses.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Mar 5, 2011 14:59:04 GMT -5
Okay, to all those who are getting all holier-than-thou about the wedding vows (which, by the way, are standard phrasings but not universal. I'm pretty sure I promised to be kind to my husband and he promised to keep me supplied with hockey gear!) If a person misrepresents who they are and what they want prior to the marriage, I'd consider that to be entering into a contract under false pretenses. I wouldn't feel obligated to stay married based on that. Nor based on the judgemental commentary on a random message board. OP, you really have a lot going on, and counseling by yourself will help you sort out both how you feel and what you ought to do about it. Take your time deciding on a course of action (especially since it sounds like a lot of pressure will be lifted in the next year or so). You may also want to talk to a lawyer familiar with divorce laws in your state.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 15:11:59 GMT -5
I agree. But YOU do need help.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 5, 2011 15:56:21 GMT -5
To clear up a couple of things, I didn't push him to be self employed, that's his dream. I grew up watching the family business crash and burn around me not knowing when the utilities were gong to be turned off again and watching them delude themselves that things were going to turn around until there was nothing left. His self-employment dreams scared me, but I was trying to make him happy so that he would make me happy. He really wants to be self employed and have the freedom to do what he wants when he wants to. He hangs around with a lot of retired and self-employed people and he resents having to go to work every day and have someone else making the decisions. He's happier with this job then he was with most of his other tries at working for someone else because he does have a lot of freedom in what he does and the boss lets him take off early to play golf a couple of times a week when the weather is nice and he works nearby the cafe where his retired friends hang out and he can go to breakfast and lunch with them.
Yes, I made a mistake putting everything into my name, but I didn't go into the marriage with an exit strategy, I was determined that I was going to make it work.
I've looked into bankruptcy before and I make too much for chapter 7, so if came to that, I'd have to do chapter 11. Trashing my credit and having most of the money I earn for the next 5 years taken away sounds a lot worse than paying off my bills in the same time frame or less while keeping good credit. Someone suggested quitting my job, getting divorced and filing for bankruptcy. I think it would be difficult to get another job in finance if I proved that I couldn't manage my personal money and I'm not willing to just take a leap of faith that my knight in shining armor is waiting for me to be unemployed and divorced so he can rescue me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 16:02:21 GMT -5
But it sounds like 'his failed businesses' had a lot to do with her needing him to do more than just have a job, if she wanted to stay home. Maybe its just me, but i'm getting the vibe that it was a lot her idea... and if he had just had the job he has now (or something similar) sure, maybe she never would have gotten to cut back to part time.... but they'd still be better off, without the debt... etc.
I'm thinking it takes two....
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 5, 2011 16:02:22 GMT -5
To clear up a couple of things, He really wants to be self employed and have the freedom to do what he wants when he wants to. He hangs around with a lot of retired and self-employed people and he resents having to go to work every day and have someone else making the decisions. He's happier with this job then he was with most of his other tries at working for someone else because he does have a lot of freedom in what he does and the boss lets him take off early to play golf a couple of times a week when the weather is nice and he works nearby the cafe where his retired friends hang out and he can go to breakfast and lunch with them. I'm self employed and I have no idea what your DH is talking about. Yes, I have some more flexibility than a person who punches a clock, but the work still has to be done and I still have to be in the office. He's not successful at being self employed because he's lazy. Sorry, but there's no way around it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 5, 2011 16:03:28 GMT -5
But it sounds like 'his failed businesses' had a lot to do with her needing him to do more than just have a job, if she wanted to stay home. Maybe its just me, but i'm getting the vibe that it was a lot her idea... and if he had just had the job he has now (or something similar) sure, maybe she never would have gotten to cut back to part time.... but they'd still be better off, without the debt... etc. I'm thinking it takes two.... I'm thinking the failed businesses have more to do with him golfing and hanging out with his buddies at the coffee shop instead of actually working on building the business.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 16:32:26 GMT -5
That's possible to. But again, one would think she, if not they, could see he was not suited to that type of thing, without constantly putting more debt into the pipe dream that some day he would be able to support her in the way she desired to be supported...
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Mar 5, 2011 17:08:01 GMT -5
When I was married, I made more money than my husband. I did not mind being the "breadwinner" or find it all that stressful, but he had problems with it.
I found it less stressful to be earning enough money to be able to support myself and the family if need be than it would have been to have been unable to do so and have to depend on someone else's ability and goodwill to do it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 17:24:24 GMT -5
I found it less stressful to be earning enough money to be able to support myself and the family if need be than it would have been to have been unable to do so and have to depend on someone else's ability and goodwill to do it. Amen- I feel the same way. A couple of other thoughts: Dad was the breadwinner my whole life- that was what he and Mom agreed on going in. At one point Dad got disgusted with the politics of his job and felt the steel industry was in peril (well, he was right) and wanted to go to law school. We were about to start college. Mom told him they had kids starting college and they could not afford for him to take off and go to law school. I suppose some here would think Mom was all wrong and Mom was whining because she was losing her meal ticket- but Dad re-thought it and stayed at the job. The industry did tank and so did his career, but they'd lived conservatively and saved enough that they're retired now and doing well, 20 years after Dad's last paying gig. Dad gave up chasing a dream to support his family. I think he'd tell you he was repaid thousands of times over. We celebrated his 80th birthday last year- a gathering of 5 kids and their spouses, 13 grandchildren, 3 great-grandchildren and his wife by his side. Failed businesses: we weren't looking over the shoulders of the OP's husband but I can tell you that in the case of my Ex, "starting a business" was really a good excuse to spend even more money on computer toys and entertaining business prospects without ever getting anywhere. The irony was that his sister and her husband had grown a very successful business but they worked their rear ends off at it and, at one point, she was ready to get a waitress job to bring in cash because the business wasn't generating enough. Maybe you can goof off after it's up and running, but not while you're getting it started.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 5, 2011 17:24:26 GMT -5
The thing is, that he really was good at the actual performing the tasks of the businesses, it was the big picture planning/management that was the problem. I did eventually see that he wasn't suited to it and it did a lot of damage to our relationship and his self esteem to finally get him to see it. Now he tells me that I'm in charge of directing our lives and he's in charge of doing the work. I know it could be worse, but that's not what I wanted. I guess I'm ok with being an equal partner, but I really wanted to be the one in the supporting role, I don't want all of the responsibility for taking care of everyone all of the time.
As to the overtime, I'm grateful he has the opportunity to work overtime and the little bit extra does make up for a lower hourly wage, but I hardly think he's working himself to death by averaging 4 hours/wk overtime. Even when he has to take a 1/2 hour lunch instead of an hour and stay until 5:30 instead of 5, he's still home before I am most nights.
What do I want him to do? I don't know, that's what I'm trying to figure out. I do know that I want him to hang on to this job and keep up with the occasional projects that impress his boss, to make sure he has job security. I also want him to either finish up or get rid of all of the unfinished projects he's working on. I want him to work at being better at estimating the amount of time and money the things he starts are going to take to finish. He buys things to fix up or takes on projects to build things, but then he gets distracted and we end up with dozens of half finished projects and a lot of them don't end up making financial sense by the time they're done. We lost a lot because of his self-employment efforts, but even more because of the things he insisted we needed to do to the house before we could all live in my house together and sell his place. I've told this story before on the other board, but the home renovation from hell started off the whole financial disaster that took every cent I had and every cent I could borrow.
He is trying to make me happy, I just don't know what that's going to take. He's started cooking dinner a couple of nights a week and helping with the dishes and he did a load of laundry this AM out of the blue. That's nice that he's helping with my chores, but I really don't think heading further down the path of role reversal is the key to making me feel safe and taken care of.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 17:36:28 GMT -5
I think you are going to have to come to terms with the fact that your very specific idea of gender roles and how you want things to be is not going to come to pass in this relationship.
You either need to take the relationship you have and make it more equal in the ways it is able to flex... ie. take his help on the homefront and be grateful he's pulling more weight there...
Or you need to get out of this relationship.
For what its worth. There are very few relationships which allow a person to do what you want to do in this day and age. That may seem hypocritical of me to say... being that i'm the stay at home mom who hasn't done a paid gig in over 18 months.... but the fact is that we didn't get here overnight... and we didn't get here by one of us orchestrating how he/she thought things 'should be'... we did it together... through the times I support us financially and he took on more home stuff, and the times he supports us financially and i do most of the home stuff, and through those odd months when we both take on all the tasks together... and it fluctuates all the time.. and its ideal... in the fact that we recognize nothing is ever ideal.... its the best you make of it... every minute of every day...
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