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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 4, 2011 19:51:18 GMT -5
<<< Do any other wives earn significantly more than your husbands and how do you feel about it? Do you ever discuss it? >>> ...this has happened with us... yes, we discussed it... we agreed that it had a lot to do with having grown up with the stereotypes of "Leave it to Beaver" moms and dads... why we didn't fit into those stereotypes and why that was/wasn't an issue... ...but all in all, we liked the two paychecks more than the alternative...
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Post by bobbysgirl on Mar 4, 2011 20:10:02 GMT -5
Also, I would have a big BIG problem if DH couldn't hold a job or kept losing us money trying to start businesses. Losing money would be a much bigger issue for me than not making enough to support us. Read more: I agree with BS on this one. Standing on the outside and looking in, I would think you are more angry about broken promises. It's a form of betrayal that he said one thing and did another. On top of that he created personal debt. But, I can't see how you could let him put it in your name. Or did I misread something? It's also difficult to believe you stayed with him because you didn't want to declare bankrupcy. Taking care of each other is more than the size of a paycheck. It's mutual respect and caring. He doesn't seem as if either was important to him. My DH wanted me to promise I would find someone after he passed. I told him no way, Jose. Do you have any idea what's out there???
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 20:11:58 GMT -5
Sigh... I always wish we could hear both sides of a story...
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LlamaLlamaDuck
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Post by LlamaLlamaDuck on Mar 4, 2011 20:29:35 GMT -5
I'm with Lisaa on OP's anger being twofold- at him because of broken promises and at herself for allowing him to do it. I know I would lfeel like a chump for providing husband with all the comforts and security of marriage and being treated essentially as a single mom in return.
It does not sound as if they had any policy of joint agreement. Sounds like hubby just did what he liked and left OP to clean up the wreckage.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 20:54:51 GMT -5
But, I can't see how you could let him put it in your name. Or did I misread something? It's also difficult to believe you stayed with him because you didn't want to declare bankrupcy.
I took all of the debt in my name because his credit was ruined from the business he was working on when we got together failing. He explained what happened and it sounded reasonable at the time, but looking back with more perspective, I can see that yes, there were a lot of things beyond his control that caused it to fail, but he's just not good at business and he made bad decisions.
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Post by debtheaven on Mar 4, 2011 21:17:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 7:37:05 GMT -5
I just re-read page 2 and realized I missed the part about not wanting to spend time with my kids. He would have been toast at that point. I also would not have been putting all that debt in my name. Regardless, we would have been done at that point. That, on top of everything else you described, makes me agree with others who've already said that your marriage is basically over.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 7:50:01 GMT -5
You need to see a counselor and a lawyer.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 8:00:00 GMT -5
Moneyjenny, I've always interpreted women's rights to mean that men and women are basically interchangable and that women should be able to make the same choices and decisions that men make with work, family life, etc. This means that it is up to men and women to decide for themselves what the right balance should be for work, home chores, family time. I strongly support this. What I'm saying is that I think that many women believe this and live like this while holding a somewhat contradictory view that men should still provide more economically based on traditional views of the household. I certainly don't think that men and women who have traditional views are 'anti-women', but I do think it is difficult to live as if you are ok with equality and flexibility in all things and just expect things to trend towards a man taking more of the role in providing for the household. Interesting point. I have never wanted to be a SAHM long-term (I did stay home for a year when my children were born and then only worked 20 hours a week for years). While I am fairly conservative in my views, a part of me is also a women's lib because I strongly believe that, outside of a truly physical job, women can do any job done by a man and do it just as well. However, I would never be ok with supporting my husband yet I had no problem letting him support me when I was a SAHM. I guess that makes me hypocritical but it's ok because I freely admit it
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 8:24:39 GMT -5
But MT, you were at home raising his and your children and I am sure you both talked about it and made that decision together. I'm kind of thinking about working again and although DF would support it, he really doesn't like the idea and I know it. I couldn't just go to any job because, unlike him, I couldn't just go anywhere at anytime if I had a job and that is important to him. Did your DH resent you being at home and then working part-time? OP resents the fact that her DH hasn't lived up to his (in her mind) part of the bargain. Yes, if she hadn't wanted him to "get rich quick" then they wouldn't be on the hook for all his bad business loans but he came with bad credit, she already mentioned. That would have been a dealbreaker for me right there along with him ignoring her kids. She wanted to be married no matter what and when you are desparate, you give off that aura and the leeches come out of the woodwork. Now she is finally realizing she has been ROYALLY "had." I'm sure a part of her wishes she hadn't wasted so many years and so much money but a part still wants the dream of marriage and a supportive husband. Counseling may make it happen for her or help her make the transition to a better life, one not filled with every day resentment. OP, how did your husband take your revelation?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 8:35:43 GMT -5
Yes, if she hadn't wanted him to "get rich quick" then they wouldn't be on the hook for all his bad business loans but he came with bad credit, she already mentioned. I didn't see any indication that the businesses were "get rich quick" schemes. Even reasonable businesses with sound plans can require a lot of money- especially if you keep throwing more money in because you're convinced that if you do this particular thing the business will succeed.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 8:38:21 GMT -5
Sorry, but I have a GF who started a business for her husband because his personality kept losing him jobs. To say she is not happy is an understatement.
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happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Mar 5, 2011 8:42:15 GMT -5
'The other big reason I married him was that I really wanted my kids and I be part of a family. I was really ashamed about being divorced mother with 2 kids and he had 2 kids of similar ages and seemed to be a good parent.'
I think this is a big problem nowadays. Most divorced women aren't looking for a companion/love/etc... They are looking for someone to help take care of their kids, cut grass, handyman, take them out to eat. Most divorced men are looking for a cook, clothes washer, house cleaner. That's why people are willing to settle. Maybe I missed it but did she talk about loving this man?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 8:48:24 GMT -5
But MT, you were at home raising his and your children and I am sure you both talked about it and made that decision together. I'm kind of thinking about working again and although DF would support it, he really doesn't like the idea and I know it. I couldn't just go to any job because, unlike him, I couldn't just go anywhere at anytime if I had a job and that is important to him. Did your DH resent you being at home and then working part-time? OP resents the fact that her DH hasn't lived up to his (in her mind) part of the bargain. Yes, if she hadn't wanted him to "get rich quick" then they wouldn't be on the hook for all his bad business loans but he came with bad credit, she already mentioned. That would have been a dealbreaker for me right there along with him ignoring her kids. She wanted to be married no matter what and when you are desparate, you give off that aura and the leeches come out of the woodwork. Now she is finally realizing she has been ROYALLY "had." I'm sure a part of her wishes she hadn't wasted so many years and so much money but a part still wants the dream of marriage and a supportive husband. Counseling may make it happen for her or help her make the transition to a better life, one not filled with every day resentment. OP, how did your husband take your revelation? Oh, my husband didn't want me to work at all once we had children. I am the one who refused to give up my professional identity completely because I saw the lifestyle my mom (and me) had after she divorced my dad. So no, for us it was a mutual decision for me to stay home and one sided (me) once I returned. to the workforce, even part-time.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 8:49:13 GMT -5
And, it gets tiring to have to constantly live up to someone else's standard and not be allowed to be who you are. If he wants to pump gas for a living and not be a CEO, then that is who he is. I'm not sure I would be happy married to someone with so little ambition in life.
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Post by mtshastawriter on Mar 5, 2011 8:57:11 GMT -5
I agree with the other posters, if your husband won't contribute a decent amount to your situation then you have 2 choices - accept it or leave.
Just for full disclosure... My DH and I weren't getting along and had two young kids in school. I was making $50K a year and he had to go out on permanent disability. I was working all the time, doing the household crap, and taking care of the kids...
Just as I was really getting ready to leave, my DH became ill. It has been 12 YEARS since then. How do I ever justify leaving someone who is ill and needs care? And, who is the father of our children.... who I typically can't stand to be around on a day to day basis because he is so needy....
I mention this because things can get worse, and you can be "stuck" in a bad situation when/if it does. I feel like I have had no life and at the same time have a big child who can't and won't take care of himself with the expectation that everyone else will do things for him and take care of him.
In my situation, we moved to a LCOL area so that at least I can hope to have a paid-off house for retirement because I can't work and save for retirement because DH requires medicaid coverage to pay for what Medicare doesn't for all of his various medical needs. Our house (which will be paid off in 2014) is my security blanket for the future and if I leave that isn't really an option.
In my situation it's sort of a waiting game. DH is very ill, on dialysis, and hasn't been doing very well. My only choice seems to be to tough it out knowing that one day the issue won't be there. (My DH is older than I am.)
I guess I share the above to say that there really are times you should leave before you can't. I wish every single day that I had left. And, I wish that I still had that option, but for now I do not. I have a child with 2 years left in school. At the end of that, I will reassess my options...
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 9:06:07 GMT -5
OP isn't happy and she is resentful. She has also told her husband that she no longer desires him because of his lack of earning capacity. If I were a man or a woman and someone said that to me, I'd be outa there so fast but the fact that he is still there says VOLUMES. He doesn't respect himself either and views her the way she feels he views her, as a meal ticket. They seemed to have both viewed each other as a meal ticket but he was right and she was wrong. OP, ANY man is not better than no man at all. But get thee to a counselor and decide if this "relationship" is worth saving or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2011 9:22:29 GMT -5
Sorry, but i also lost my "ambition" along the way as well. I did a lot of things , changed jobs, have my own business, etc but you know what, I am satisfied. I don't want to be in the fast lane anymore and neither does my spouse. Perfectly reasonable- you'll avoid what the author of "The Peter Principle" called reaching your level of incompetence. He pointed out in his book that people keep getting promoted for good work in their current job- to a job they may or may not be able to do as well, and they stop getting promoted when they're in a position they can't do well! Seriously- it's good that not everyone wants to a CEO, even those who have the smarts for it. There wouldn't be enough jobs for all of them. But if I'm reading the attitude of the OP's husband right, the debt that was run up in her name is behind them and not his problem. No need to take a second job, for example, to help pay it off. If my spouse had run up piles of debt in his name for failed businesses I tried to start, I'd be working my tail off to do whatever it took (and doing without whatever I could) till the debt was paid. It's one thing to decide to work at a more modest level than your potential indicates because you want a life outside of the office, and you've scaled back your expenses accordingly. It's another thing to make that decision when the other partner is heavily in debt because of decisions you made together.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 10:44:10 GMT -5
Obviously he got what he wanted because if he hadn't, he'd have left, and maybe he will when his debts are paid off, who knows?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 10:45:54 GMT -5
Why is that "unambitious"? My sister went to college, got her degree and now is perfectly content to be a "worker bee". She has had many opportunities to become the boss, move into management, etc but she simply does not want to. She has both the brains, ability, and drive to do so but it does not interest her. I do not think less of her because of that. I don't think less of someone who is happy doing their job and not always trying to move up the ladder. Sorry, but i also lost my "ambition" along the way as well. I did a lot of things , changed jobs, have my own business, etc but you know what, I am satisfied. I don't want to be in the fast lane anymore and neither does my spouse. We are happy to just go to Little League games, have time to to coach our kids, etc. I could be making more if i wanted to step back on to that track but i don't. So, I guess i am not "ambitious". As for a spouse, you either accept who they are or not. I know CEO's who are miserable people and I wouldn't want to be married to them and i know regular Joes who are great guys and vice versa. If you are only measuring your spouse by their paycheck, well that is your life and i guess people can do that if they want. But, paychecks come and go., life happens, illness happens, layoffs happen. If there isn't some underlying love and adoration for that person then it is going to make for a miserable life together. I would never be happy supporting a husband who had the ability to work but wasn't ambitious enough to work or work at a job that didn't require me to support him. That's me...obviously you would be ok with that and that's works for you.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 5, 2011 10:50:41 GMT -5
Just like I wouldn't marry DF with his health issues if I knew he didn't have the money to care for himself. I am willing to help nurse him when he is ill or in bad health. I am NOT willing to put myself in financial straits or damage my own health doing so. Self preservation is a very important trait.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 10:55:04 GMT -5
If you loved a person and their job was x and they got up faithfully and went to x job, why isn't that enough? I don't want to live on Ramen noodles
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 11:00:34 GMT -5
Would you rather eat Ramen noodles with someone you love or a feast where there is no love? (there is a Bible verse for that BTW) I'm an Atheist so I wouldn't know the Bible verse...I don't want to eat Ramen noodles with or without someone I love.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 5, 2011 11:06:13 GMT -5
I'm with Miss T. Love doesn't conquer all, and it's really stressful living without enough money, and I wouldn't marry someone who wasn't able to support a family. However, I also recognize that money is not the most important thing and I'm OK with DH's wanting to be a staff pharmacist at a hospital with the steady hours and lower pay than retail, that pays really well but the hours are really family unfriendly.
I'm pretty sure DH feels the same about me, too, though. He likes the fact that I could support the family on my salary. So I guess it goes both ways in our family, lol.
ETA: I had enough ramen noodles when I was a poor student. I'm not eating them either alone or with someone I love.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 11:37:19 GMT -5
"That, on top of everything else you described, makes me agree with others who've already said that your marriage is basically over."
I disagree. The OP's problems extend far deeper than her marriage. Regardless of what happens to the marriage, she is not in a good place mentally. Divorcing her husband won't even come close to solving all her problems.
What if she gets divorced? She still has to support herself, still will never be a SAHM, will likely have to pay her spouse alimony (and probably resent that too), will still harbor anger at her previous husbands, will still harbor anger at herself for letting it happen, and still feel guilty over unfulfilled dreams. Even if she did get divorced, she wouldn't be in a place to date or have a meaningful relationship until she addresses her past and works past it. If she divorces without coming to terms with herself and her issues she'll likely end up in another bad marriage. Any future husbands won't be perfect either. She can blame her last husband and her current husband (and I'm sure it's their fault too) but unless she looks inside and deals with herself then she's doomed to be unhappy and miserable no matter what she does in the future. That's why professional counseling is so critical.
Bottem line, she needs to deal with her own feelings and anger first, and then she'll be in a state mentally to really assess her marriage and future.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 11:42:12 GMT -5
"I didn't say it didn't happen. But, I can't imagine there are too many woman who are looking for men to support. Obviously, there are times when you find your spouse and for whatever reason, that makes financial sense, I am not knocking that. But, in general, women do not expect to support men."
And you think "in general" men are looking to support women? Think again, I'd never support a capable adult except under specific circumstances (disability or medical problems, layoff). But if my spouse fell on hard times I wouldn't abandon them. I hope your husband never needs you to support him, and I hope he's always healthy, never gets sick or disabled, or gets laid off. So much for being a team and loving each other "till death do us part," you should let him know it's "till you can't work and make money anymore."
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 5, 2011 11:44:38 GMT -5
"However, I would never be ok with supporting my husband yet I had no problem letting him support me when I was a SAHM. I guess that makes me hypocritical but it's ok because I freely admit it."
If you say so. Whatever makes you feel better about your selfish attitude.
I'll tell you the same thing. I hope your husband never gets sick, disabled, or laid off. And that if he does you'll lose respect for him and have a "problem with it" even though he loved you enough to support you.
It's statements like these that make me sick to my stomach and make me glad I'm still single. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who wanted me to support them and would leave me in the gutter, divorce me, or at the very least lose respect for me when I needed them to recipricate. That's not a marriage based on love and support, that's a marriage based on what you can get out of the other person. That's a childish and abusive way to look at the person you supposedly love.
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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Mar 5, 2011 11:50:50 GMT -5
<<< And you think "in general" men are looking to support women? Think again, I'd never support a capable adult except under specific circumstances (disability or medical problems, layoff). I hope your husband never needs you to support him, and I hope he's always healthy, never gets sick or disabled, or gets laid off. So much for being a team and loving each other "till death do us part," you should let him know it's "till you can't work and make money anymore." >>> ...interesting... while I can see where you are coming from, you lose me on the hard-line take of the "'til death do us part" wedding vows while skimming over the "for richer or poorer" part... ETA: ah, you posted that you are single... maybe your views on marriage in general could be an interesting discussion to clarify what I didn't quite catch, but there's no need to go into that for the purposes of this thread... ETA: I do, however, agree with your pointing out that one must be happy with oneself before they can be happy with the relationships they have...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 11:54:36 GMT -5
"However, I would never be ok with supporting my husband yet I had no problem letting him support me when I was a SAHM. I guess that makes me hypocritical but it's ok because I freely admit it." If you say so. Whatever makes you feel better about your selfish attitude. I'll tell you the same thing. I hope your husband never gets sick, disabled, or laid off. And that if he does you'll lose respect for him and have a "problem with it" even though he loved you enough to support you. It's statements like these that make me sick to my stomach and make me glad I'm still single. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who wanted me to support them and would leave me in the gutter, divorce me, or at the very least lose respect for me when I needed them to recipricate. That's not a marriage based on love and support, that's a marriage based on what you can get out of the other person. That's a childish and abusive way to look at the person you supposedly love. You do realize I never said I would leave my husband if he got sick or lost his job...or do you just like putting words in my mouth??? What I wouldn't do would be support him so he could work some mindless, low-paying job or if he chose not to work at all. The only part I am hypocritical (and admit to it!) is that I am not ok with having a SAHD. I guess I am old-fashioned but if we decide one of the parents needs to stay home, it isn't going to be him. On the plus side, my husband would never consider being a SAHD even though he wanted me to be a SAHM (in case you can't tell from any of my posts, we are quite conservative in our views). If that makes you sick to your stomach and glad you are single, then so be it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 5, 2011 11:56:13 GMT -5
"However, I would never be ok with supporting my husband yet I had no problem letting him support me when I was a SAHM. I guess that makes me hypocritical but it's ok because I freely admit it." If you say so. Whatever makes you feel better about your selfish attitude. I'll tell you the same thing. I hope your husband never gets sick, disabled, or laid off. And that if he does you'll lose respect for him and have a "problem with it" even though he loved you enough to support you. It's statements like these that make me sick to my stomach and make me glad I'm still single. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who wanted me to support them and would leave me in the gutter, divorce me, or at the very least lose respect for me when I needed them to recipricate. That's not a marriage based on love and support, that's a marriage based on what you can get out of the other person. That's a childish and abusive way to look at the person you supposedly love. I think you also missed the part where my husband WANTED me to be a SAHM...I wanted to go back to work.
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