sbcalimom
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Post by sbcalimom on Mar 4, 2011 15:28:47 GMT -5
My DH and I just had this conversation after tax time. I realized I was earning about 3/4 of our income while also providing 3/4 of the childcare and basically 100% of household duties, all while pregnant with #2. I'm fine earning more money than him OR being a SAHP but not doing both. I told him he either needed to earn more money or start doing more as far as childcare/household duties. He decided that with his school and teaching load that working more wasn't an option so he starting doing a lot more household duties and taking care of DD about twice as much as before. He also agreed that things were unfair before and that we should actively work to make them more fair by reassessing when one or both of us felt it was necessary. We still don't have a perfect arrangement but it is definitely better than before and most importantly, I feel like he listened and took my concerns seriously rather than just patronizing me or blowing them off.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Mar 4, 2011 15:28:53 GMT -5
And yes, deep down, I think a lot of women have more traditional views than they wish to admit - myself included. Don't feel guilty. This is called "wanting to have your cake and eat it too". It's nothing new.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 15:29:45 GMT -5
You don't say how old you both are either.
I'm 42 and he's 44. We both had first marriages at 19. He's still young enough to develop a career if he could ever figure out what he really wants to do with his life. Many of the jobs and businesses he's done in the past 9 years have been going down different paths. (Restaurant owner, Household Appliance Repair, Lawn mower Repair, Home Energy Auditor, Parts Manager, Section 8 housing application auditor). He also fixes cars and does construction work including plumbing and electric as side jobs and for himself, but not as a career. He's a jack of all trades, but a master of none. He didn't go to college because he didn't want to waste time & money until he figured out what he really wanted to do and he still hasn't figured it out.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 15:30:54 GMT -5
I KNEW there was more to this than money issues. That is just a reason but the real reason is that he hasn't lived up to your expectations in more than money. He turned out to be a lousy father to your children and not real considerate of your feelings as well. You might have been able to let it go had his business been a success instead of a failure and he made a lot of money but to fail at that as well, well, coupled with being a lousy step-father, that is beyond the pale.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Mar 4, 2011 15:34:09 GMT -5
gofcc Seriously, get counseling. First separately and then perhaps together. There is a lot of "resenting" going on here. And not just on monetary issues. You need to resolve this to be able to move forward in any happy future. I don't think you will work this out on you own or with message board advise.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 4, 2011 15:34:36 GMT -5
I make significantly more than DH (especially as he is unemployed, but even if he were to go back, I'd be making well over 2x what we expect him to make). It doesn't bother me, but that's probably because we always knew it would be this way. When I was in my first few years of college, I thought I wanted to be a SAHM. Most of the mother's in my neighborhood were, and I thought that would be a great fit for me. Then I dated a guy who would have expected me to be a SAHM, and I realized that the expectation (even if it was what I was expecting of myself) annoyed me. When I started dating DH, he had dropped out of school, and had just had a business he was running with a good friend go under. I told him he had to have a job or be back in school to date me. He got a job as there was no money for school, and he didn't want to rack up SL debt. I graduated with my BA. Before we moved together, he called the community college he'd gone to and applied for his AA (he'd earned, just had never filed to graduate). But we knew I'd be the primary earner because of the education. By this time, I'd also realized I was more ambitious than I had previously thought. At one point, DH started earning more than me. I instantly decided that I wasn't being paid what I was worth, and I found myself a new job that paid much better. So yeah, we're good with it, but that's probably because our reality matches what both of our expectations were.
In your case, reality has never risen to match your expectations. And that sucks. You have to decide if your DH brings enough other things to the marriage for you to want to stay married. If he does, get yourself in to counseling, post haste. Once you've had a few sessions, see about getting him to join you. Get yourselves on the same page emotionally. Reset your expectations for your marriage. Then, and only then, can you really get yourselves on the right financial track.
If you don't think you can let go of the resentment; if you don't think he brings enough to the table to be worth it, than leave, because you've already left. Just be prepared to feel even more jealous or upset when talking to those same friends, who LOVE to talk to each other about how nice it is to be a SAHW in front of you, about how they are so loved because their husbands take care of them, and how they are better wives because they can make their homes "nice" for their husbands. (My SAHM friends would never make comments like that in front of me, just like I don't make comments about how being the primary breadwinner makes me a good wife.)
Regardless of what you choose to do about your marriage, I definitely agree with the other posters that you need to find yourself another group of friends, perferably one with some working women. I bet your resentment lessens when you have friends that support you, instead of passively tearing you down.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 15:38:18 GMT -5
Shenandoah, perfectly said.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:43:28 GMT -5
This is excellent advice shanendoah. Karma, karma, karma.
In your situation in looked like as the relationship progressed, your circumstances over time confirmed the differences that were there. You decided during the entire relationship that above the standards you set early that you were honestly ok with differences in earnings and ambition along with continuously being emotionally connected to your husband. Not emotionally connected if he did 'x', but emotionally connected throughout.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:44:41 GMT -5
We've been having the same thoughts on this thread ziba! Let's hope that's a good thing!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 15:44:47 GMT -5
I've been the breadwinner most of my adult life- single till age 30, made about 50-50 with my first husband till he lost his job 8 years later and never found another, divorced after 13 years, remarried 7 years after that to a man who was retirement age. We moved for my job shortly after the marriage- he was 65 and working for an ad agency that fell apart soon after- try getting a job in advertising at age 65. But I know we could live on my income. Life is good- he mostly holds down the fort at home, does the wash, gets the house and the car repaired when needed, has dinner ready when I get home, etc. Yes, there are definitely times I wish I coudl just turn off the darn alarm and go back to sleep, which is what he does- but then, I think it's human to wish you didn't have to work for a living. In general, I really like my work and the money is very good. I think my sister, the doctor, who also has a househusband, would say the same. In both our cases, we married with a pretty clear idea of what forms of support we'd get from our men, and money wasn't a big part of it.
Life with my Ex was closer to what you describe. He got discouraged after his last job died out, made a couple of very expensive attempts at starting businesses that went nowhere, and made very unreasonable demands any time a potential job came up (like being paid twice his previous salary). Yes, then I DID feel worn out, used, taken advantage of. I'd married a brilliant inorganic chemist employed by a respected company and ended up with a couch potato with a bad attitude and a drinking problem.
But, that's my story. OP, I agree with you- anti-depressants are not the answer. You have a lot of things bothering you, including some typical blended family issues, failed expectations, and "friends" who make you feel guilty for your choices. Sometimes being a good mother includes earning the money to put a roof over the kids' heads and having major medical insurance. Your friends may even realize they could not do what you do if they had to support a family and are trying to justify their own positions/choices. Get counseling- seriously. You have a lot eating away at you and it won't disappear. Your husband is probably also feeling bad- I'm sure he didn't want to end up with a track record of expensive business failures, with you and your kids staying in a different part of the house with him and his kids. If he won't go, go by yourself.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 4, 2011 15:44:49 GMT -5
Thanks, zib & stats
Having read an additional post from the OP where she said "It took me too long to find someone willing to marry me after my divorce " I say - get yourself to counseling NOW. Regardless of what you decide to do about your marriage, you MUST work on your self esteem issues. You are never going to be happy, regardless of whether or not you have a man supporting you, if you think that way about yourself. No relationship can make you happy (they can make you miserable) if you are not happy with who you are. Please, if not for yourself, if not for your marriage, then for your DD and adorable grandchild, get yourself some counseling - become proud of the amazing woman you are. Trust me, that is the best bit of parenting and grandparenting you can do.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 4, 2011 15:56:12 GMT -5
---ETA: this part was clarified by a later post and is no longer relevant---
...:::"He didn't go to college because he didn't want to waste time & money until he figured out what he really wanted to do and he still hasn't figured it out.":::...
Look at it this way -- he could have gone to college and STILL not figured it out, and now you'd be paying off student loans too!
...:::"You might have been able to let it go had his business been a success instead of a failure and he made a lot of money but to fail at that as well, well, coupled with being a lousy step-father, that is beyond the pale.":::...
Yup... where women are concerned, money fixes everything. Another gem, Zib.
And as far as that 3 job thing, it was VERY naive to think that he was going to continue to work three jobs after doing so for a marriage that failed. Most people seeking to remarry after divorce want a BETTER situation, not a WORSE one. If he'd wanted to work himself to death and be resented for it, he should have just stayed with the first wife.
The kids thing is interesting too. I was always told that when you marry someone with kids, the kids will always come before you.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 15:56:48 GMT -5
I just can't do the counseling thing yet, because there's no point in going to couples therapy unless you can feel free to discuss all of the issues and make a decision to stay or go and I'm not in a financial position to go and I don't want to push him to go and leave me stuck. All of the debt is in my name and because of the gap in our incomes, I would be expected to keep all of the debt and pay alimony during a separation. I expect to be in a place where I can make a choice within the next 3-5 years, but not now. Even though I don't have kids at home, my elderly father and my daughter who is struggling as a young single mom depend on me occasionally financially and I don't want to be in the position to be barely able to pay my bills and then one of us has an emergency and we're screwed. I can deal with being disappointed and unhappy with my life and marriage, but I really want to avoid being divorced, in debt up to my eyeballs and scared that everything is going to come crashing down on me financially.
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Post by illinicheme on Mar 4, 2011 15:57:46 GMT -5
Karma (if I could give more than one blip at a time) for everyone who has pointed out that OP's situation has basically nothing to do with the salary discrepancy and everything to do with not being on the same page as her spouse.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 15:59:28 GMT -5
I think you should go to counseling by yourself. You have some real issues and disappointments. Dealing with those will give you the perspective you need on your relationship.
I have a different opinion on anti-depressants. I think sometimes you need to use them to be able to go get help. Super-depressed people usually have no emotional reserves - which you need to do therapy successfully. Anti-depressants can give you enough of a boost to help you face your problems.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 4, 2011 16:03:48 GMT -5
qofcc: But you're already afraid everything is going to come crashing down on you financially. You're already in debt up to your eyeballs. Does divorce really change that much? But honestly, forget couples therapy. YOU need therapy. YOU. Your employer almost certainly has an employee assistance program that you can call. They often have phone counseling or they can refer you to a professional your insurance covers. Even if they only cover psychiatrists (which is very, very rare), they can refer you to one who is willing to do talk therapy, no drugs. (I know multiple people who go this route.)
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 4, 2011 16:07:02 GMT -5
Darnit qocc, your clarifying posts keep changing the story!
What are you really protecting here? Is it REALLY going to be better in 5 years?
I say quit your job (better yet, see if you can work out some kind of leave of absence) THEN file for divorce and Bk and get out of this terrible situation. You are your own worst enemy here. The resent is so much more than him not making enough money to let you be a SAHM. You feel completely used. You feel like an expense account, a lending institution, and probably a maid/cook. You are only going to hate him more and more.
5 years from now you won't be in a more solvent position if you wait this out. You'll have much more debt, and 5 less years of your life.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 16:11:14 GMT -5
WWBG, to answer your question, he does. He resents that as well because the kids are old enough and she has job skills that could get her a job (medical.)
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 16:14:46 GMT -5
I agree with WWBG, you got the VERY short end of this stick. I also was a single mom and wished I had the extra income and emotional support of a partner but I remembered that I thought that once before and got the shaft so it kept me from doing it again. You didn't get a partner, you got another child to raise, and one who selfishly put himself and his kids ahead of you. Plus, further damaged your financial security. If being married to ANYONE is better than being alone (hello Mom) then you end up with losers.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 16:14:56 GMT -5
And as far as that 3 job thing, it was VERY naive to think that he was going to continue to work three jobs after doing so for a marriage that failed.
He wasn't working 3 jobs when I met him - he had been divorced 6 years by then. I interpreted the 3 jobs thing to mean that he was willing to do whatever it takes to support the family. I never expected him to go out and get 3 jobs, but I did expect that he would get a job, keep it and get raises every year so his income would go up. Yes, he works overtime seasonally because his job requires it. I work overtime too, I just don't get paid any more because I'm salaried. I wasn't even expecting to be a fully stay-at-home mom because my kids were in school. I was expecting to be able to cut back to a 30 hour week.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 16:16:08 GMT -5
I'm sorry you didn't even get that.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 16:31:10 GMT -5
What are you really protecting here? Is it REALLY going to be better in 5 years?
Yes, I really think it will be better financially in 3 years, 5 years tops. It's been a long hard struggle to get back in the black, but we've been going in the right direction for the past 2 years and just crossed into positive net worth. Within a year or so, my dad should be at the top of the waiting list for subsidized housing and I won't have to worry about him not being able to pay his rent. My DD should be done with school and settled in a job by the end of the year. My 401K loan will be paid off in less than 4 years and with that alone, I would be able to afford to make it on my own if I have to. As long as neither one of us looses our jobs (and both of our employers are happy with us), then things will be much better financially soon.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 4, 2011 16:33:41 GMT -5
qofcc--I definitely agree about the counseling. However, just a couple other points:
I can't imagine why you would have to pay alimony. He is employed, and has 0 debt. He should be able to support himself on 30k per year. If he pushes for alimony, get an attorney that can show that he is willfully underemployed. (From your posts, it sounds like he is). A friend of mine did this, with just a letter from a CPA that stated the average salary for her ex's career was 4 times what he was making.
With regard to the debt--sometimes people have to file bankruptcy, and it doesn't make them a bad person. Perhaps you could live with your dd or father, since you said they are struggling.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 4, 2011 16:35:08 GMT -5
I can't imagine why you would have to pay alimony. He is employed, and has 0 debt. He should be able to support himself on 30k per year. If he pushes for alimony, get an attorney that can show that he is willfully underemployed. (From your posts, it sounds like he is). A friend of mine did this, with just a letter from a CPA that stated the average salary for her ex's career was 4 times what he was making.
Millions of divorced women who earn less then their ex-husbands collect alimony. If she is earning significantly more, she will be paying.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 4, 2011 16:39:57 GMT -5
Normally my response to this would be "Now you know what men have been dealing with for hundreds of years," but I can see that this is really and truely painful for you.
First of all, you do really need professional counseling. We can try to offer message board advice, but you really do need to work through the resentment and anger you feel towards your husband and yourself. Even if you did leave your husband now you'd still need to work to support yourself and likely be angry at yourself for what happened in both of your marriages. In other words, divorcing your husband won't solve your problems.
To me, it sounds like the money is just part of a bigger problem. That your life didn't turn out the way you wanted and you feel like he isn't doing enough (true or not) and meeting your expectations. Realize that it isn't all his fault, but he should be sensative to your feelings and try to work with you to improve your situation.
What you see with your husband is likely what you'll get. He obviously isn't overly ambitious and likely will never make enough to "support you." To ask him to do so may make HIM just as resentful as you, or just set you up for disapointment when he can't fulfill that expectation.
It may help in the short term to take a step back and realize how lucky you are. You have wonderful children, a husband who is gainfully employed AND works overtime, you have a nice home, enough food to eat, your health, heat, a good job, and much more. There are plenty of people worse off in the world. Everyone has regrets about how they wish things could have turned out differently, but that's just part of the human experience. You just have to learn to forgive yourself and your husband, easier said than done I know.
"I'm the only one in our social group that has a career and I always feel like such a failure that they're good enough to stay home and be taken are of and I'm not."
Where are you getting this idea that one can be a SAHP if they are "good enough?" If a man supports his wife, does that mean he's not "good enough" to be a SAHD? That is a very odd thing to say. Do you think that people who are supported by a spouse somehow better human beings? You really need to address this attitude, as it could be a source of a lot of your resentment and anger. Being a SAHM isn't about being better than someone else, nor is being the breadwinner. It simply means you do what you must to make a living and do the best you can with the situation you're in. If anything you're a "better" human being for stepping up to the plate and doing what needs to be done for your family. The circumstances dictated your choice to have a career, not being better or worse than someone else.
Sounds like you need to either get a group of professional friends, or learn not measure your self worth based on those around you.
Best of luck, I hope it works out for you.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 16:57:20 GMT -5
I can't imagine why you would have to pay alimony. He is employed, and has 0 debt. He should be able to support himself on 30k per year. If he pushes for alimony, get an attorney that can show that he is willfully underemployed. (From your posts, it sounds like he is). A friend of mine did this, with just a letter from a CPA that stated the average salary for her ex's career was 4 times what he was making.
I don't think the willfully underemployed thing would fly. He's making several thousand less than the average for his job title, but he's working for a small business not a large corporation and has only been in his current position 2 years and has received 2 raises and they would take that into account. His highest paying job ended because the company went out of business, so that wasn't his fault. Even if he was making $10K more, I would still be earning enough more that alimony would be required for a period of time. I read up on the new laws and there's no way they would award permanent alimony, but I would have to pay quite a bit during the separation period.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 4, 2011 17:01:28 GMT -5
I can't imagine why you would have to pay alimony. He is employed, and has 0 debt. He should be able to support himself on 30k per year. If he pushes for alimony, get an attorney that can show that he is willfully underemployed. (From your posts, it sounds like he is). A friend of mine did this, with just a letter from a CPA that stated the average salary for her ex's career was 4 times what he was making. Millions of divorced women who earn less then their ex-husbands collect alimony. If she is earning significantly more, she will be paying. Part of my job requires me to review divorce decrees (when applicable) and I rarely see anyone getting alimony. Maybe 1 in 10? Alimony is supposed to help the spouse who put their career on hold to support the family. I financially supported dh while he got 2 degrees. Assuming we stay together, his degrees better our family situation. If he traded me in for a younger model after he graduated, I would have expected that he pay me alimony so that I could work on my college degree as well. (We discussed this early on, and we both came up with that plan). How would the OP husband show that he had sacrificed his career to better the family? She has taken on all of the debt of his failed business attempts, earned the majority of the income, and done 100% of her own children's childcare. Some people take advantage of the system (men and women equally in my opinion), which is unfortunate. I've seen 1 divorce decree in 8 years that still has me baffled as to what the schmuck did to deserve it. Otherwise, alimony is usually for a few years and not very big money.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 4, 2011 17:04:52 GMT -5
I can't imagine why you would have to pay alimony. He is employed, and has 0 debt. He should be able to support himself on 30k per year. If he pushes for alimony, get an attorney that can show that he is willfully underemployed. (From your posts, it sounds like he is). A friend of mine did this, with just a letter from a CPA that stated the average salary for her ex's career was 4 times what he was making.I don't think the willfully underemployed thing would fly. He's making several thousand less than the average for his job title, but he's working for a small business not a large corporation and has only been in his current position 2 years and has received 2 raises and they would take that into account. His highest paying job ended because the company went out of business, so that wasn't his fault. Even if he was making $10K more, I would still be earning enough more that alimony would be required for a period of time. I read up on the new laws and there's no way they would award permanent alimony, but I would have to pay quite a bit during the separation period. It's good that you're educated on it. Just curious: What do they say is the reason for paying during the separation period? Is it just a cya kind of thing while the courts have time to process the paperwork?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 17:21:49 GMT -5
Millions of divorced women who earn less then their ex-husbands collect alimony. If she is earning significantly more, she will be paying. I am not a lawyer but anything can be negotiated in a divorce agreement and then brought before the court for signoff. My Ex and I did that in an ugly divorce, and the judge actually thanked us for putting the agreement together with our lawyers instead of using the resources of the court system to sort it all out. If I were the OP, I'd maintain that the debt was incurred for him to start businesses and that the fact that they'd failed shouldn't leave her on the hook for paying them. "Alimony" would take the form of her agreeing to pay off the debts. And I would be very wary of temporary alimony. My attorney wouldn't touch that idea with a 10-foot pole because she said they could keep dragging you back into court with excuses about why it should go on longer and why they needed more.
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sil
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Post by sil on Mar 4, 2011 19:29:08 GMT -5
Here's my secret - I like being the breadwinner because I think it gives me allowance to be bad at some "traditional" female roles.
I'm a good mom, and a decent cook, but Im a lousy housekeeper, I dont know how to sew, Im terrible at ironing (so I dont bother) and I hate being the social planner. DH is a great dad, and because we're both working, he takes on a good portion of the house/clothing care. He's also more social than I am, so unless we're hosting he does the bulk of the social planning.
If I earned less than DH, I'd probably feel more compelled to do a larger portion of the housework. Truth be told, I'd rather win the bread.
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