qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 14:05:02 GMT -5
www.smartmoney.com/spending/budgeting/10-things-your-spouse-wont-tell-you-1298308510316/?page=2Do any other wives earn significantly more than your husbands and how do you feel about it? Do you ever discuss it? Not to hijack the other thread that's focusing on hiding cash, but I clicked the link to the full list of 10 items and this is my big marital issue. We had a big discussion about it last week, because he kept nagging me to tell him why I'm depressed and not enthusiastic in bed so we finally had the discussion and I guess it's not a "secret" anymore. After 9 years, I make 65-70% of the income and I just hate it. I feel resentful and cheated, because this is not how it was supposed to turn out. Before we were married I thought we earned similar incomes and he talked about how he worked 3 jobs to support his first wife so she could stay home with the kids and he said he'd work hard so that I could cut back to part-time and stay home with my kids. This was a huge factor in my attraction to him and decision to marry him. I poured time and money into his failed business ventures, did extensive job searches for him every time he ended up unemployed, coached him on office and management skills and helped him with work he brought home so he could impress his employers, everything I could think of to help him achieve the goal of earning enough to support our family and giving me the kind of life I desperately wanted, but nothing worked and a few years ago it dawned on me that there is just no way he is ever going to be able to support me and I'm always going to be a failure at being the kind of wife and mother that I wanted to be because I have to be the one who works all the time and is responsible for everything. I'm the only one in our social group that has a career and I always feel like such a failure that they're good enough to stay home and be taken are of and I'm not. It should be a moot point now because the kids are gone now and it's beyond ever being able to be fixed and if I had been a stay-at-home mom, this is the time I would be going back to work to contribute to the retirement savings, but I'm having a hard time letting this go. I could deal with earning more if he was earning enough to support us and all of my salary was going to savings and discretionary spending, but he ran up so much debt (all in my name) with failed businesses and stuff he just had to have that we have quite a few more years before we could afford to live on just MY salary, let alone his. He's been working at a job he likes for 2 years now and I'm grateful that he's finally stably employed, but even with lots of overtime, he makes less than $35K and even without the debt, it would be hard to live comfortably on that salary alone. He works for an extremely small business and even though the owner gives him raises and bonuses every year, he really can't afford to pay him much more. I know I should to find a way to either live with it or let it go. People keep trying to get me to take anti-depressents, but I really don't see how drugs are going to solve the problem. I think this is one of those situations where dreams die hard and I just need to keep pretending that things are ok until they really are or I find a solution. Am I the only one who feels like that? This poll suggests maybe not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 14:12:33 GMT -5
wow. you need to find a way to deal with that before it starts affecting your marriage.
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Epiphany
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Post by Epiphany on Mar 4, 2011 14:19:37 GMT -5
I really appreciate your honesty in saying all of this, here and finally to your husband. You've been holding on to this resentment and bitterness for years and will continue to do so until you can work through those failed dreams and move on. Remember that you don't want to be stuck in this feeling for the rest of your life. Some people might be able to get over that your expectation of a husband wife relationship failed easier but you aren't. I really suggest NON-MEDICATED counseling to help talk through what your expectations are/were and how to re-direct and re-focus them when life didn't turn out the way you wanted.
This happens to lots of people in different ways, like a woman who always wanted to be a mother but can't have kids. You must learn to acknowledge the failed dream, the high expectation, and then move past it to a new one. Saying it out loud is a good first step.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Mar 4, 2011 14:19:55 GMT -5
I am sorry that your friends don't appreciate that you have had a sucessful career and make you feel guilty for the choices you have made. It's not that you're not good enough to stay at home you just had different circumstances and made different choices. I think you need to work on keeping lines of communication open with your husband and work through this together.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 14:21:23 GMT -5
It is already affecting your marriage if your feelings have been that strong for that long.
I read an article that said that women who made more than their male partners were much more likely to be unsatisfied if they wanted to stay home or had traditional views about men and women (e.g. men should mainly provide for household). If they didn't hold these views, then couples with a female primary earner weren't much more likely to divorce.
This is tough, but I think you listened to what he said rather than what he did. You can't believe that he will really take three jobs so you can stay at home if you've been with him for one year, three years, five years and you see constant bouts of unemployment, failed businesses, lack of motivation, etc. Some people go through radical changes, but most people will end up in ten years pretty close to the level of ambition and motivation they were ten years before that.
His work ethic very well might not be a reflection of loving you less than other husbands love their wives or less than his last wife. He just presented himself as motivated and ambitious, and he probably isn't. If it was that important to you, you have to follow his actions instead of his words. There shouldn't be any reason to expect he will change now, especially since staying with your kids when they are young is past (the main reason this was important to you). Does he provide enough in other areas to make the relationship meaningful without this, or not?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 14:21:48 GMT -5
It already IS affecting her marriage. IF you wish to stay married to him, I agree with getting some counseling. Depression is anger turned inward.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 4, 2011 14:22:29 GMT -5
Sounds like you need new friends if they make you feel like crap for being the breadwinner. You also need new friends if it is all in your head, you need to find some working mom friends to talk to instead of being around people who reinforce your negative thoughts.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 4, 2011 14:25:55 GMT -5
Oh this one is always fun. Ever since "The secret lives of breadwinner wives" was published on WIR way back when, this topic has exploded.
Although the typical reaction to these threads is "welcome to what men have been dealing with for decades", I'm very sorry to hear that things didn't work out particularly well for you. I can see how you feel bait n' switched by being told that you'd be supported by someone who already did it once, and decided not to do it again.
If he makes ~$35k then it sounds like you make ~$60k-$70k? I can see how if someone in a "regular" field marries a doctor/lawyer/executive type, then there will always be a big disparity in pay. But is he "capable" of earning more, or is he just not interested in doing better?
...:::"he talked about how he worked 3 jobs to support his first wife so she could stay home with the kids":::...
I doubt he was looking to do that again.
...:::" and he said he'd work hard so that I could cut back to part-time and stay home with my kids. This was a huge factor in my attraction to him and decision to marry him.":::...
Did he work hard at starting businesses? Hard work does not always translate into results, but a lack of results does NOT mean the effort should be completely discounted.
...:::"It should be a moot point now because the kids are gone now and it's beyond ever being able to be fixed...":::...
OK you two are REALLY going to have to figure something out, because potentially you have an issue that will tear your marriage apart. If all you can ever think about is how mad you are at him for "failing" (in your eyes), then there is no hope for the future and you should really just divorce now.
He is already noticing that your sex life has taken a dive, and now he knows it is because you resent him for the past. If you don't work together and figure something out, then its only a matter of time before he realizes you'll get madder and madder over something that can't be changed.
I see I wrote that before I read your "either let it go, or pretend things are OK until they are". I vote for option C: WORK on making things OK. He CANNOT change the past, and you'll never get to be a SAHM (unless you have another kid).
But... could you be a SAH Grandparent perhaps? When your children have children, could you be in a position to help take care of them while your kids work? Could you mentor a child? Could you transition into some kind of volunteer work or some other work for a cause that means more to you than your job does? I know this would all be after the debt is paid off. Just because one door is closed forever doesn't mean another won't open.
Best of luck to you.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 14:29:36 GMT -5
I'm also reminded here of the power of your 'reference group' (close friends, family, work peers) to determine your life goals and happiness. It is hard to live around a group of people who live life one way (as SAHMs rather than workers) when you are the odd one out and feel like your marriage, life, economic situation is as good as everyone else's.
I've known SAHMs whose friends all work who feel the exact same way, just for opposite reasons.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 14:41:04 GMT -5
I also think that some women overestimate their satisfaction with 'non-traditional' arrangements. I know plenty of women who are perfectly fine with it, and I completely believe that they are sincere. I do think, however, there are some women who want to work, who forcefully believe that they still should have the choice to work, adamently support women's rights, yet still have a latent perference for having a man take more of a primary role.
I think part of this is still that most people under 50 have different ideas about men and women but grew up and spent most of their lives around people who felt and lived differently. It rubs off on you. Maybe the next generation will feel differently, but somehow I think that some of this will always linger.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 14:45:52 GMT -5
adamently support women's rights, yet still have a latent perference for having a man take more of a primary role.
I don't see how the two ideas are mutually exclusive.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 4, 2011 14:45:56 GMT -5
Right or wrong, it is very hard to respect a man or even a woman that you don't feel has "lived up to their end of the bargain." I have a male friend who cheats on his wife because she has gotten fat and he finds her revolting. In his mind she hasn't held up her end of the bargain so he justifies his flings. Not saying it's right because I don't believe it is and I am sure there are probably other issues but he won't take her to any business functions or even be seen in public with her. Plus he has taught his boys to disrespect her as well. Not a good family dynamic for sure. You both need some help. He has to feel so much less a man because you told him you feel cheated by his non-earning capacity. Would you feel better about him if he got another job to help out? Is it all about money or are there other issues? Counseling will help find that out.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 14:46:29 GMT -5
But is he "capable" of earning more, or is he just not interested in doing better?
He works very hard and he has lots of different types of technical skills. He has earned in the $40K range and I think he could again. I know the job market has been tough, but he sets up so many requirements for a job. He can't sit too long or stand too long or work outdoors or in people's houses doing repairs and he doesn't want to be in sales and he wants the flexibility to leave early and play golf in the summer. He also won't be aggressive about looking for a job. If he could have kept his salary in the $40K range and not run up debt, we could have afforded for me to work part-time.
if someone in a "regular" field marries a doctor/lawyer/executive type, then there will always be a big disparity in pay
I'm a Financial Analyst who worked my way up from being an Office Manager (over 20 years and various jobs at different companies). I earn an average salary for my job and I've pretty much topped out at my career.
could you be a SA Grandparent perhaps?
My grandson is 3 and I do find satisfaction in the fact that my job is flexible enough that I can occasionally take care of him when he's sick and can't go to daycare.
Sounds like you need new friends if they make you feel like crap for being the breadwinner.
They don't say thing to make me feel bad, they just say things to each other in front of me about how grateful they are to be able to be there for their kids and how hard they work at home to make things nice and easy for their husbands. I certainly don't tell them that I'm jealous.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Mar 4, 2011 14:48:57 GMT -5
I earned 3x my husband last year, and will earn 2.5x this year as he got a better-paying job. I am likely to outearn him for our entire lives, and I have no problem with that (he does sometimes, but I don't.) We have struggled with things like "second shift" work when I found I was doing much more housework while also working and earning more. BUT, I have never wanted to be a SAHP. I was raised to make sure I could provide for myself and my father is still actively discouraging me from having kids so I don't "mommy-trak" myself. Further, apart from my SIL, I don't know any women my age who don't work. Most of us don't have kids yet, but I cannot imagine most of the women I know choosing to stay home as I have self-selected a pretty ambitious group of friends. I could be naive in that but that's how it is now. Also, I would have a big BIG problem if DH couldn't hold a job or kept losing us money trying to start businesses. Losing money would be a much bigger issue for me than not making enough to support us.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 4, 2011 14:54:16 GMT -5
they just say things to each other in front of me about how grateful they are to be able to be there for their kids and how hard they work at home to make things nice and easy for their husbands
Clearly it is bothering you to hear it. You should try to focus on what you do to make your home nice and make life easier for you and your husband.
There is more than one way to make a home nice and make life easier for your spouse.
I still think you should find yourself some working women friends to have a different perspective on things.
Surrounding yourself with people you are jealous of is only making things 20 times harder because you are constantly reminded of what you DON'T have.
It's like when DH gets surrounded by certain co-workers it starts to color our marriage because he has a bad habit of comparing himself to others. I encourage him not to hang around those people because all it does is create issues for us.
It probably will not fix things since there are a lot of issues here, but at least you will not be in an environment that is constantly driving home how "awesome" the choice you didn't make supposedly is.
I reminded DH you never know what goes on behind closed doors. For all you know their lives may be miserable and they are putting on a front for YOU.
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ihearyou2
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Post by ihearyou2 on Mar 4, 2011 14:55:28 GMT -5
There was one year when my wife made more then me and I was a bit envious but actually proud of her more then anything else. I feel like she has lost interest in working like she used to, since I make more, and think its problematic based on her personality.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:00:59 GMT -5
Moneyjenny, I've always interpreted women's rights to mean that men and women are basically interchangable and that women should be able to make the same choices and decisions that men make with work, family life, etc. This means that it is up to men and women to decide for themselves what the right balance should be for work, home chores, family time. I strongly support this.
What I'm saying is that I think that many women believe this and live like this while holding a somewhat contradictory view that men should still provide more economically based on traditional views of the household. I certainly don't think that men and women who have traditional views are 'anti-women', but I do think it is difficult to live as if you are ok with equality and flexibility in all things and just expect things to trend towards a man taking more of the role in providing for the household.
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spartan7886
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Post by spartan7886 on Mar 4, 2011 15:03:43 GMT -5
I make about 2/3 more than DH does, but it doesn't really bother me, because he makes a good salary, I just make a better one. If I felt DH was underachieving, that would bother me. The difference bothers him, I think, more than me as we begin to think about becoming parents, because he was raised in a one income household and firmly believes that is better for a child. It is hard for him to face the reality that it makes a lot more financial sense for me to be the one income (aside from the fact that he is the much more self-motivated one anyway, so would be a much better SAHP anyway)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 15:04:01 GMT -5
stats, I always felt that feminism was about choice. If you want to work, you can work. If you don't want to work, make sure you find someone to support you. This really goes for men or women.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:10:22 GMT -5
I always get slammed for saying this in posts, but I have just learned to not believe people exactly at their word. I don't think that people are all 'liars', but many people selectively remember, overemphasize, or just make up a narrative that they strongly, truly felt they could have accomplished. It doesn't mean that they are a horrible person (though dishonesty is a bad thing), but it is so important to look at actions more, and whenever possible verify the trust that you are extending to another person.
When I met my partner, he said he was going to get an MBA. He was already in school, clearly more committed to his job than work, making great money, and had a clear career progression that didn't require an MBA right away. I was two years into my doctoral work, and I thought that may have intimidated him. I thought he was an extremely responsible and hard-working person, and from his performance in school during the first six months, I didn't really think he was going to get an MBA. We had a big talk about it when he graduated, and he said that it was a goal but he really didn't think it would work.
I think if his parents or even I asked him, he would say he is going to get an MBA soon. Will he? I don't know. I hope he does if it makes him happy, but no part of my feelings toward him change if it doesn't. We earn about the same, he loves what he does, and he is very happy. Even if his long-term goals don't happen, I've tied my expectations of him to things I can actually see and observe. I'm extremely happy with those things, so I'm happy with him.
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Post by lisaa on Mar 4, 2011 15:11:03 GMT -5
I submit that this is not about gender roles, or one spouse making more money than the other at all. It is not about money.
It is about broken promises on the part of your spouse.
It is also about your hatred of yourself for letting this go on, for enabling it, and for not recognizing it or doing something about it sooner.
You have to let it go. You can decide that you are OK with the way your life is, or you can decide to divorce. But either way, you have to let it go, let go of any hatred for your spouse, or yourself, so that you can once again be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 15:14:14 GMT -5
Men looking for women to support them? Not. I know at least two men who either want a woman to support them or have a woman currently supporting them. You need to get out more.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:14:17 GMT -5
Moneyjenny, I would agree with that. Choice is the main goal for men and women.
The only slight caveat I am adding is that some people want the choice, but they really want the traditional set-up even more. I think people are genuinely conflicted at times, and that is ok. Part of life is being pulled between feeling and goals. I think that women often have it harder than men at times (at least emotionally) because there is such a broad difference between the lives open to them in general. I also think there are pulls between career and home and children that split what women might want in an 'ideal' world and what they get with their partners and life circumstances.
I'm sure this is true for men as well, but it just seems different because men don't see or expect the conflict as much.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 4, 2011 15:14:48 GMT -5
Is it all about money or are there other issues?
No, it's not all about money, but this is the money board and that was the article topic.
The other big reason I married him was that I really wanted my kids and I be part of a family. I was really ashamed about being divorced mother with 2 kids and he had 2 kids of similar ages and seemed to be a good parent. He made a huge effort in the beginning to be nice to my kids and include them, but shortly after we were married, he stopped spending time with us as a family and spent lots of time alone with his kids when they were there on the weekends. Part of it was the stress of trying (and failing) to be self-employed and part of it was we had different parenting styles. He would still want to spend lots of time with me, but I always had to choose between him and them and I resent him and feel like a failure as a mother because I had to choose him so much because I was trying to keep the peace so he wouldn't decide to leave and I would be stuck with all of the debt and have to declare bankruptcy. I really wanted for ALL of us to be able to sit in the living room together and watch TV or read or play games in the evening. I hated that he would be in the basement with his kids while I was in the living room with my kids, then when he was done with his kids, he would want me to come sit in the bedroom with him. Even now, he resents the time I spend with my daughter and grandson. I realize that it was partly my kids fault for pushing him away and resenting him as a step-parent, but it was also his fault for always criticizing them and trying to force me to conform to his parenting style. It took me too long to find someone willing to marry me after my divorce and the whole blended family thing was a big failure. It wasn't all his fault, but if I knew it was going to be like that, I wouldn't have married him.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Mar 4, 2011 15:14:51 GMT -5
I wonder if the same complaint can be made if it's the other way around, in that the guy makes 70% vs. the woman's 30%? You know, with men and women being equal nowadays and all. I've also never understood men who get ticked off if their wives make more than them. It's like "Oh no! She makes more than me. Now we have more money and that's AWFUL. She should make less than me so we have LESS money. That would be AWESOME!" WTE?
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:16:50 GMT -5
I'll second that moneyjenny. I knew at least half a dozen women in other graduate programs supporting a male spouse on a graduate student income. I was surprised the first couple of times and then I didn't know how to respond.
To be honest, I probably wouldn't have been so surpised if the men and women were reversed, so it made me think about whether or not I had more traditional opinions about gender roles than I thought I did.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 4, 2011 15:17:30 GMT -5
I know I sound like a broken record when I say this, but it's not usually about the money.
When you met him, he acted like a man - supporting his family. When you married him, he started acting like a child, or better yet you started treating him like one. Doing his work so he can impress his boss??? What is this, middle school and his science project?? So, at this point it's not important who started this pattern. But it is still there. You let him behave like an irresponsible kid and he willingly accepted and still accepts that. IMHO, THAT'S what you two should be discussing and figuring out, not who is making more.
Lena
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Urban Chicago
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Post by Urban Chicago on Mar 4, 2011 15:18:28 GMT -5
Currently, I am working part-time while DH is the main breadwinner. We are actively trying to reverse roles.
We always said one of us would be home most of the time, which we have done. However, I really do crave the stimulation of being at work more often, talking to adults, etc...
I'm only saying this because being a SAHP isn't all it's cracked up to be. Maybe that perspective will help you forgive your husband.
For the record, I do get how you're feeling betrayed because he didn't do what he said he would. Unfortunately, as you admit, it's too late to change now so you really have to find a way to live with the past, weather or not you decide to leave him.
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 4, 2011 15:23:24 GMT -5
The OP said that she 'thought' they made the same amount of money and that her decision to marry him was based on promises and stories from the past. That just isn't enough. If there are no concrete actions and no verification, what is there to actually make a decision on?
The children situation worries me and makes me think that there are extremely deep trust issues along with lots of bitterness. I don't think that this can be resolved without counseling at the very least.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2011 15:24:40 GMT -5
stats, you are so right about the "supporting the other while they get their degree" thing. I don't think there would be a big to-do if a man was supporting a woman. And yes, deep down, I think a lot of women have more traditional views than they wish to admit - myself included. 10 years ago I would have never thought about being a SAHM/SAHW, but here I am, wishing I could have the choice to work outside the home. Things may change later, but for right now we both work FT (DH makes a little more than I do).
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