Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 28, 2014 11:08:56 GMT -5
I dont' think anyone is "demonizing" her husband. She asked for advice and people are giving her advice based on what she has told us. So, part of that advice involves truly assessing the situation, herself and her spouse. My DH is not an entrepreneurial type, that doesn't make him a "bad" person for me to say so. Sheesh. I think we are all grown up enough to understand that. And, obviously she is only going to take advice that makes sense to her.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Dec 28, 2014 11:09:33 GMT -5
Ok...
Basically your husband earns 36.21% of your household gross income. Your goal is to find out how starting Jan you can live on only 63.79% of your household gross or just your paycheck.
So everything, all obligations, some savings need to be covered by the 74k.
Now I don't know how much is your second mortgage but yeah maybe you could do a 50/50 split with his income: - pay off 2nd mortgage and other debt - beef up savings account.
Re-evaluate this time next year.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 28, 2014 11:11:22 GMT -5
How much do you owe on your home in total?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 28, 2014 11:14:05 GMT -5
You've mentioned your DH has a history of depression. Was the depression professionally treated? How long ago was this and how long did it last? How did it manifest and how did it impact his life? This is something that has to weigh in here. Some of what I'm reading leads me to believe you may have an unrecognized problem here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 11:16:14 GMT -5
No, I know it won't be fun. But hopefully it won't be necessary for long either. But... 1) it will give husband a picture of what life will look like if there is no income coming in on his side. 2) it will give you a chance to agressively pay down debt so that when he quits you will be in a better position to live on one income if necessary. Make it it a game to see how little you all can spend and how creative you can be. If husband really hates the consumer society, this should be right up his alley... He will LOVE this. He'll say, see I told you so. You don't need all that stuff to make you happy. We can live on a lot less. I love the idea of aggressively paying down debt, too, but I don't want this cut lifestyle to be our new normal. I want to travel again, but am fine holding off for now. I want to help my kids cash flow college. I want to finish the basement. etc. You need to be able to get what you want too, especially since you will be the one carrying the majority of household. I agree with counseling suggestions. I agree with the idea that you both need to agree on bare minimum needs... And you get to set those too! If you sold the house, could you get what you owe for it and move someplace smaller/less expensive?
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Dec 28, 2014 13:06:44 GMT -5
But he has no problem with YOU working for the man?
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Dec 28, 2014 13:10:38 GMT -5
I have to agree with oped... If your husband is going into business for himself best to assume his income will be near zero the first couple of years. So you need to re-align your household spending to fit under your income. Easier said if you are the breadwinner, harder if he is the breadwinner. (Ex: easier for us to cut back if my wife decide to go into business for herself 40k - vs me going into business for myself 80k+bonus). I hope in your case you are the main breadwinner. And stop using your pension as an excuse or you will save nothing outside of that pension. But I am bias, I have no faith in pensions... I am the breadwinner. Per oped's suggestion yesterday I did run the numbers with just my income. It would be doable, but it wouldn't be fun. When I was thinking of cutting my budget, I wasn't expecting to go cold turkey on everything. Makes me sick to think about it. I know makes me sound like a big baby. Not at all. You sound like a realistic, mature adult who is looking out for her family.
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wonderland
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Post by wonderland on Dec 28, 2014 13:15:44 GMT -5
I don't understand the whole "not working for the man" thing. I use to do photography on the side during college. It paid well enough, but even though I didn't have a "boss", I had to answer to customers.
Selling on eBay, there will inevitably be the unhappy customer, the lost package, the damaged goods, the declined payment. There will be emails to answer and deadlines to meet. Christmas season will be a headache. He will still have to answer to someone. He needs to learn to separate work stress from the rest of his life.
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wonderland
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Post by wonderland on Dec 28, 2014 13:19:55 GMT -5
But do you have a choice? Your husband plan to quit and it seems you have given him your blessing. Gotta do what you gotta do. What is your gross? What is his? My gross is $74. His is $42. I guess by not demanding that he stay at his job, I've given him my blessing. But, with his history of depression...long story...I don't feel that I can make that kind of demand, especially when there might be another solution...cut the spending. You are not responsible for keeping your husband's depression at bay. That is something he needs to work on with his doctors/therapist and himself. Blackmailing you with the threat of depression isn't fair to you.
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wonderland
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Post by wonderland on Dec 28, 2014 13:21:58 GMT -5
If I were busting my butt at a job so my DH could sit at home and sell things ebay, he better make sure his household contribution stayed the same. I would be very resentful of dropping my lifestyle so my spouse could play all day.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Dec 28, 2014 13:29:16 GMT -5
Shooby beat me to it. What is the contingency plan if his side business doesn't work out? Or is he so determined that he hasn't considered it may not work out? Determination is a great thing, but this would worry me. He will just go back to a regular job, just not the one he's got. He won't have a choice in that matter, and he knows that, but he's not letting himself think like that just now. He seems very confident that this will work. shrug. I hope he's right. How many hours per week does he work now, at his job? If less than 100, why is it that he doesn't have (100 - hours spent at job) hours per week to spend on his business right now?
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Dec 28, 2014 13:32:29 GMT -5
This is really a marital issue and a lifestyle issue. It may be that you guys are not compatible anymore. If he's the type to be happily living minimally making 30K/yr, and you're the type to want a nice house/vacations/culture on 100K/yr, it may be difficult to resolve this. Your talking about vision/goals/life identity, not some random job. It's like city life vs rural life. My BIL/SIL divorced last year over this after 20yrs of marriage. They just grew into different people who have different goals, and their mutual disdain (her "materialism"/his "laziness") couldn't be be resolved. It didn't help that she reunited with a X-BF on FB. Anyway, I strongly suggest counseling for you guys. From what little you've posted here, it doesn't appear you guys are operating as a partnership and that's no way to be when making such big decisions. Good luck.
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NoNamePerson
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Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 28, 2014 13:44:45 GMT -5
Soo, the founders of Walmart are greedy but the owners of Ebay are not? Hmm.....lol.
Yeah, it won't be fun, but it sounds like it is going to be a lot less fun for you than for him. I say Walmart, but what he means is all crony capitalists - Eminent domain, subsidies, bailouts, lobbyists - he sees the small businessman as different than all that - more moral and justified. This is all going to be MUCH less fun for me than him. He does realize that a lot of the businesses/men that he is belittling all started out as small business owners not wanting to "work for the man" Everyone can't stay little or there would be no growth and probably no EBAY!!
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Dec 28, 2014 13:49:23 GMT -5
I've been hearing this all of my life - about how great it must be to 'be your own boss', no more 'work-for-the-man' - and how easy the life would be. Yet, mathematically, the opposite is true.
1. Most USA working couples - teachers, engineers, nurses, etc - can set aside $10,000/yr for wealth-building. And do it steadily for a 30-yr career - eg, teachers are seldom w/o work, nurses are seldom w/o work - a steady uninterrupted $10k/yr placed at 11%/yr (the generic US Market average almost forever) for 30 yrs = $2.2M. The probability of a successful outcome are high. (In our case - engineer & nurse - all of our income came from "the man" - and the outcome was very successful)
2. Conversely, small business start-ups have a 15% chance of surviving. The other 85% fail in 5 to 7 yrs - and the end is ugly - they borrow against any & all assets, plus load up some $50k credit cards in a last ditch effort to save it. And then they go back to 'work for the man' and start digging out of the hole. (I may have exaggerated a bit for effect - but I've hired more than one machinist who came back from exactly those conditions). OTOH, I know of a couple small businesses that were in that 15% 'good' category - one sold the business at age 45 for about $5M - so when it is a winner it can be a great winner.
As for worrying about having 'only' $13k in the EF - you actually have 6-figures in investments, ie a Fallback EF. As as for how to invest your capital - do NOT try to time the Market (expecting crash next year?), just worry about what it will be worth in 30 years, don't worry about the roller-coaster ride that it takes along the way.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 28, 2014 13:58:04 GMT -5
The whole "The Man" thing is a strange. If you are working you are working for somebody. You are making a product, providing a service or whatever for somebody. So, you always have to work in cooperation with Somebody. There seems to be some notion that being Your Own Boss means you somehow set your own hours. Well, sure if you don't want to actually make any money, then set your own hours and work when you please. But, if you plan to make a living, you are going to work the hours that make it convenient to whomever your potential buyer or customer is. Yeah, I am self employed. I don't set my own hours or schedule. I work when, how and where they need me to work.
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Post by Amateur Genealogist on Dec 28, 2014 14:21:30 GMT -5
My gross is $74. His is $42. I guess by not demanding that he stay at his job, I've given him my blessing. But, with his history of depression...long story...I don't feel that I can make that kind of demand, especially when there might be another solution...cut the spending. You are not responsible for keeping your husband's depression at bay. That is something he needs to work on with his doctors/therapist and himself. Blackmailing you with the threat of depression isn't fair to you.Well said. He will never get outside help for depression though. That, I do know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 14:23:34 GMT -5
Sweetie, you need to get some counseling yourself. There are larger issues here.
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Post by Amateur Genealogist on Dec 28, 2014 14:25:51 GMT -5
He will LOVE this. He'll say, see I told you so. You don't need all that stuff to make you happy. We can live on a lot less. I love the idea of aggressively paying down debt, too, but I don't want this cut lifestyle to be our new normal. I want to travel again, but am fine holding off for now. I want to help my kids cash flow college. I want to finish the basement. etc. You need to be able to get what you want too, especially since you will be the one carrying the majority of household. I agree with counseling suggestions. I agree with the idea that you both need to agree on bare minimum needs... And you get to set those too! If you sold the house, could you get what you owe for it and move someplace smaller/less expensive? Selling the house would be a last resort. After commissions and whatever else, we'd probably come out just about even, and we love where we live. I'd rather beans and rice it in other ways first.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 14:26:52 GMT -5
Does he love where you live?
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Post by Amateur Genealogist on Dec 28, 2014 14:26:56 GMT -5
If I were busting my butt at a job so my DH could sit at home and sell things ebay, he better make sure his household contribution stayed the same. I would be very resentful of dropping my lifestyle so my spouse could play all day. This is exactly how I feel. I'm willing to try this experiment for a while for his sake, but will not be so quiet if it doesn't work out. He knows that.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 28, 2014 14:44:05 GMT -5
Yes, but it will be too late for you. This is serious stuff and I think you're beginning to see it. It's not just him quitting his job. I would sell the house and I would make plans as if I were single and the sole support of my child/children. I would insist on counseling and meds for him if the counselor deems it necessary. If he isn't willing to do this, are you willing to be the only one committed to this marriage ? I take Adderal because without it I'm a disaster waiting to happen. I do it for myself and for DF and my friends/family. Do I wish I could go without it? Um, yeah. But I can't without seriously messing with everyone around me. It's called not being selfish.
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 28, 2014 14:53:16 GMT -5
A couple thoughts.
Is this his first year selling? Does he realize you need to take the full SS out (13%) and taxes so that $ 20 hr is more like 12.
Marriage counseling. You two aren't on the same page it seems in life goals and how you want to raise your children. I.e. cutting back means little or non of extracurricular or vacations.
The cynic in me would ask him to sign a post nup. If he doesn't come close to replacing his income and everything goes south it could be very against you to extricate yourself as the only income source.
I'd set aside some time for you two to go through the budget and see what you can cut. He may be theoretically ok with spending way less but what about when it comes to setting now much you'd actually have to cut?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 15:01:42 GMT -5
Oh yeah... Is he actually operating the business as a business? Good question.
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simser
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Post by simser on Dec 28, 2014 15:25:53 GMT -5
I see huge warning flags in the "he won't get treated for depression" statement. I used to be married to an abusive man who had "anxiety" but he was "fine" and wouldn't get treated. I actually talked to a counselor after we split up and told her some things and her response was "I have never heard anything like that in 25 years of this job". So it is my absolute belief that the craziest people think they're ok. And that when we diagnose an illness ourselves, more than likely we are wrong and it's far worse than we diagnose (I actually think my ex had borderline personality disorder, I just said the bad parts were the "anxiety") You and yours need counseling. Majorly. I would recommend the his/hers/ours situation. This is bigger than the eBay (although mine did something similar btw by quitting work to go to grad school). This is going to breed resentment and anger and divorce if you BOTH don't start working together in counseling now. It's not all your fault, it's not all his fault. But if he thinks everything would be great money wise if he did it alone, then eventually he will do it alone. You have about 2 years to get on track, or you will be divorcing. Assuming you don't want to divorce, there's good news we are providing the kick in the pants with enough time to go fix it! But please, take my warning seriously if you want to still be married to this guy. (Also his reaction will tell you a lot, too). I wish you the best. I really do, I don't see a fun road ahead of you for a while. Good luck!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Dec 28, 2014 15:42:35 GMT -5
If your DH won't seek professional help for depression, I have to assume he has never sought professional help. If that's correct, how do you know he has a history of depression? Because that's what he says? How does he know that's the problem if he's never been diagnosed?
I see warning signs the size of New Jersey here. I can't tell you what to do. Nobody here can tell you what to do. All I'll do at this point in time is to warn you - there's trouble ahead. Real trouble, if you don't do something more than worry about the money side of things. What's at the bottom of this is bigger and more destructive than money, or the lack of it. I'd bet the farm on it.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 28, 2014 15:43:48 GMT -5
How much has he made selling on Ebay?
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Dec 28, 2014 15:51:01 GMT -5
He is not alone - there was a time when Business was the heroes of America - they gave us all of the great innovations - electricity, cars, washing machines, clothes dryers, trains, railroads, oil wells, refineries, airplanes, airports, airlines, spacecraft, TV, yada. Provided great high-paying jobs for 10's of millions of workers. But Academia has been pushing the 'hate' ideology hard for over 30 years now - and it has become institutionalized in our Society. We now have 40-yr-olds in middle-management that were taught to be haters of Business. And more recently Business has been split into Big Business and Small Business - politicians are responding to public opinion (the Haters) while trying to appeal to the 'Little Guy' voters. So there are now two sets of rules - one set designed to punish Big Business, and one set to favor Small Business. Ironically, Big Business simply hires people to work on govt regs and maintain compliance - and adds the cost to their products (we, the consumer, pays for it). Meanwhile, the Small Business is inundated with govt paperwork that really does punish them and cuts into their competitiveness. An odd dichotomy - you are loved when you have 3 to 5 employees, but if you become successful & incorporate and hire 75 employees you are now greedy and hated? In real life, all Businesses are the same, the goals are the same, and a single set of laws should be evenly applied. (guess I won't hold my breath waiting for it. )
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Post by Amateur Genealogist on Dec 28, 2014 15:53:53 GMT -5
He does love where we live. My eBay income worries aside, DH really is a good guy. He's very kind and sensitive to me and a great dad to the kids. He has an easy-going temperament, chips in when asked (although I'd love for him to WANT the house clean ), and is goofy/playful with the kids. He's a good family man. His spirit was broken after a failed career in teaching 15 years ago. He thought he'd love the job, and it ended up not being a good match for him. That caused depression, so, he moved on. But, it left a scar about the working world that he's not been able to shake. Believe me. I've tried to get him to go to counseling, but no. He's definitely not lazy. In the 23 years I've known him, I can count on one hand the number of times he missed a day of work for something other than the birth of our kids. No joke. He's never been sick enough to not drag himself out of bed and get there. He's a different kind of a soul than most people. He's much more sensitive than most men (this, I think is actually a detriment, not than benefit because he internalizes every little thing that his boss says), gets very passionate about things/causes, and is extremely bothered by injustice in the world - that sort of thing. He cannot handle a desk job - he's got to be up and moving. He also wants to do something meaningful (I know eBay isn't meaningful, but at least he's enjoying it). We both know he's a square peg in a round world. His job is 60 hours week and physical - starting to take it's toll on his body. As it is now, he doesn't see our 5-year-old Sunday night-Thursday evening because he's gone all day. He's exhausted by weeks' end, and sees no end in sight. Try as I might, I cannot get him to consider a job with less hours. He hates change and doesn't want to start over because he'll lose vacation time. I know, it doesn't make sense reading it summed up in one paragraph. With eBay, he seems to have found a niche for himself. He absolutely loves the hunt for goods. That's what got him started to begin with. He'd fine great deals on stuff and resell stuff to friends/acquaintances for a profit, and that got him thinking. He is very good at the social/psychological game of chewing someone down to get a great deal. People now know he's doing this and they're giving him stuff for free that they were otherwise going to throw out. He's got a great memory for facts/details (he's the best trivial pursuit player I've ever known), so he already has a huge knowledge base, and in 2014 he started selling a wider variety of categories of products. Each time he adds a new type of product, he reads obsessively online to learn more. He reads it once, he remembers it forever. He's been good about listing things continuously (although he's backlogged on inventory now because there isn't enough time in the day). His product auctions are timed to come due each night when he gets home from work, and he packages them that moment, and they're by the back door the next morning ready to go out. He's had a couple rotten buyers, but we expect those. He's making it work because he's loving what he's doing and very motivated to quit his "job." All in all, I'd say he's not done bad for himself only working about 12 hours/week in 2014 on this side business. In fact, a friend of his is feeling pretty confident too - making him an unsolicitated offer of $40,000 start up capital as an investment. We turned him down, of course, but it tells us that others are seeing possible potential. DH knows he has to work in some capacity and is fine with that. He's not afraid of work. He's not the kind of guy who will sit on the couch all day. Ebay may not be meaningful, but he's enjoying it, and it's been a long time since I've seen him enjoy work. Long term, I don't know what his plan is. Ebay won't be around forever. Of course, I'm very nervous about it all - what happens when eBay is gone or he isn't as successful going forward - but, I want to support him. I wish I had a crystal ball for a year from now.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 28, 2014 15:55:00 GMT -5
You are not responsible for keeping your husband's depression at bay. That is something he needs to work on with his doctors/therapist and himself. Blackmailing you with the threat of depression isn't fair to you.Well said. He will never get outside help for depression though. That, I do know. I am amazed that people will go to the ends of the earth for their physical health but for some reason don't believe their mental, spiritual or emotional health is equally important. Depression permeates and infects every aspect of a person's life from your family, your job, being a parent or husband, and on and on. To not get help seems very shortsighted and sad that someone won't spend a few bucks for counseling to help themselves live a better life.
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justme
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Post by justme on Dec 28, 2014 16:05:42 GMT -5
Wouldn't selling full time on eBay be a lot of desk work? And he'd start over with zero vacation time and never have any. If he doesn't work he won't have any pay.
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