swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 17, 2014 9:18:56 GMT -5
Made-up stupid defitions can be insulting. The only difference between you and me is my kids are in school 2.5 hours more per day on average. Actually there is one more difference...you are splitting duties with someone. Unless you are both present 100% of the non-school hours, that is, which I doubt. So hour to hour comparison...I've got about 120 hours per week. You've got at best 133, if you never leave your wife alone with the kids, which again I doubt. At best you have 10% more hours than me. Sorry, but that doesn't really distinguish you as full- time and me part-time, imo. To think I value work over family and therefore I am not a full-time parent is just silly and insulting. My kids come first just like yours do for you. I agree, and the prime example of a "made up stupid definition" that can be insulting is: SAHM. Whereas, the concept of full time, and/or number one, two, or three priorities are pretty easy to grasp. What's your number one priority? The way to tell is to take a measure of three things: where does your time, treasure, and talent go? Is it primarily to an employer or outside interest, or is it to your kids? Time is the only commodity there is. I used to do a presentation for my consulting business called "Buy Back Your Time". It's the entire concept of retirement- buying time. I said all that to say this- when you imply 2.5 hours per day is not a big deal simply shows you do not know the value of time. Let's say you get four weeks- or 20 work days off per year, and you take every weekend off without exception-- that's 293 days x 2.5 hours = 733 hours, or a full month every year. Try telling your employer you're cutting back on your hours, but "only" 2.5 hours per day. so that means when you worked several weeks as an adjuster in the Northeast after Hurricane Sandy, your priority was your kids? And did you wife stop working while you were gone?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2014 11:27:54 GMT -5
Made-up stupid defitions can be insulting. The only difference between you and me is my kids are in school 2.5 hours more per day on average. Actually there is one more difference...you are splitting duties with someone. Unless you are both present 100% of the non-school hours, that is, which I doubt. So hour to hour comparison...I've got about 120 hours per week. You've got at best 133, if you never leave your wife alone with the kids, which again I doubt. At best you have 10% more hours than me. Sorry, but that doesn't really distinguish you as full- time and me part-time, imo. To think I value work over family and therefore I am not a full-time parent is just silly and insulting. My kids come first just like yours do for you. I agree, and the prime example of a "made up stupid definition" that can be insulting is: SAHM. Whereas, the concept of full time, and/or number one, two, or three priorities are pretty easy to grasp. What's your number one priority? The way to tell is to take a measure of three things: where does your time, treasure, and talent go? Is it primarily to an employer or outside interest, or is it to your kids? Time is the only commodity there is. I used to do a presentation for my consulting business called "Buy Back Your Time". It's the entire concept of retirement- buying time. I said all that to say this- when you imply 2.5 hours per day is not a big deal simply shows you do not know the value of time. Let's say you get four weeks- or 20 work days off per year, and you take every weekend off without exception-- that's 293 days x 2.5 hours = 733 hours, or a full month every year. Try telling your employer you're cutting back on your hours, but "only" 2.5 hours per day. That is exactly what I plan to do when my youngest starts kindergarten ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
My kids can still be my priority even if I work. I work so I can take care of my kids. And them being my priority is one of the reasons I chose the employer I did, because they are fantastically family friendly. I never get questioned if I take a day off, if I work from home, if I leave to go to a school event, or if I bring a kid to work. And once my youngest starts kindergarten my plan is to work 30-32 hours per week during the school year which they will allow & still give me full benefits.
So you can believe kids aren't my priority, but that simply isn't the truth. I just can't afford to cut my hours & lose that income yet if I want to continue to feed them. Feeding them is a high priority for me also, so I work.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2014 11:35:20 GMT -5
That is exactly what I plan to do when my youngest starts kindergarten ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
My kids can still be my priority even if I work. I work so I can take care of my kids. And them being my priority is one of the reasons I chose the employer I did, because they are fantastically family friendly. I never get questioned if I take a day off, if I work from home, if I leave to go to a school event, or if I bring a kid to work. And once my youngest starts kindergarten my plan is to work 30-32 hours per week during the school year which they will allow & still give me full benefits.
So you can believe kids aren't my priority, but that simply isn't the truth. I just can't afford to cut my hours & lose that income yet if I want to continue to feed them. Feeding them is a high priority for me also, so I work.
Angel, is just saddens me that you feel the urge to even respond to this dribble. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png) If if counts, you're a full-time mom to me! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rose.gif) Awww. Thanks! ![](http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff155/JiminiChristmas/smileys/hug.gif)
I don't why I bother. Maybe I like to poke the troll?
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techguy
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Post by techguy on Dec 17, 2014 11:36:30 GMT -5
So you can believe kids aren't my priority, but that simply isn't the truth. I just can't afford to cut my hours & lose that income yet if I want to continue to feed them. Feeding them is a high priority for me also, so I work.
No one is questioning whether your kids are your priority are not, cause of course it is! The issue (I think) between a Working Mom and a SAHM is that the SAHM has a spouse who can afford to have her stay at home. And this is why (I think) there is some jealousy from the working moms who have to defend and justify their position that they can have it all and don't need to depend on a man.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2014 11:46:07 GMT -5
So you can believe kids aren't my priority, but that simply isn't the truth. I just can't afford to cut my hours & lose that income yet if I want to continue to feed them. Feeding them is a high priority for me also, so I work.
No one is questioning whether your kids are your priority are not, cause of course it is! The issue (I think) between a Working Mom and a SAHM is that the SAHM has a spouse who can afford to have her stay at home. And this is why (I think) there is some jealousy from the working moms who have to defend and justify their position that they can have it all and don't need to depend on a man. My issue is Paul wants to call people like me a part-time mom & claim my kids aren't my #1 priority because I work 10 hours more a week than he does.
Personally, I like working & would continue to do so part time even I didn't really need the money. So, I have no jealously towards a SAHM, at least not the staying home part because I wouldn't want that for myself. There might be jealousy if they have a spouse that shared in the workload & raising the kids & wasn't a worthless piece of crap though, LOL ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 17, 2014 11:47:09 GMT -5
My issue is Paul wants to call people like me a part-time mom & claim my kids aren't my #1 priority because I work 10 hours more a week than he does
Angel Angel Angel. WHY can't you just accept that you are wrong and Paul is right? You NEVER doubt Paul, EVER. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2014 12:05:53 GMT -5
My issue is Paul wants to call people like me a part-time mom & claim my kids aren't my #1 priority because I work 10 hours more a week than he does
Angel Angel Angel. WHY can't you just accept that you are wrong and Paul is right? You NEVER doubt Paul, EVER. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
Ah yes. I should have learned that when Cain (or was it Romney) got elected president. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png)
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Dec 17, 2014 13:08:27 GMT -5
Angel Angel Angel. WHY can't you just accept that you are wrong and Paul is right? You NEVER doubt Paul, EVER.
Yeah. You can't question a guy who took it upon himself to write an 11th commandment into the Bible because God clearly forgot to put it in there.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Dec 17, 2014 13:48:26 GMT -5
I will totally agree that "stay at home mom" is a horrible title and we need a new word for it. It was a step above "house-wife" but I think now everyone agrees, not much of a step. Labeling "full time parent" versus "part-time parent" will solve nothing. When you write about parenting, you quickly learn that there is no way to describe mothers and their relationship with the paid workforce that doesn’t insult someone.
Stay-at-home mother? “Makes me sound like a shut-in!”
Working mother? “Don’t ALL mothers work!”
Non-working mother? “Really? You think I’m eating bonbons?”
Full-time mother? “What, you think because I have a job I am only a mother part of the time?!”
Let’s ignore for a moment the excellent point that we never seem to feel the need to modify “fathers” with “working” and focus instead on whether it is time to change what we call mothers who do or do not receive a paycheck. Because what we call them simultaneously reflects and alters the way we perceive them. www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/27/we-need-a-new-word-for-sahm_n_2966251.html
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Dec 17, 2014 13:58:36 GMT -5
I think a woman is much better off knowing how to take care of herself and any children. I didn't have children but when I married I was making around minimum wage but I knew I could support myself. I knew how to live without things like a TV, radio, telephone or car and live very very cheaply. So even as a housewife I knew if I wasn't happy I could leave. I went to college and took a job because it was boring being a housewife but when I divorced him I was making a decent amount to live on so was able to get a 2 bedroom apartment and telephone and already had a car and radio, I still didn't have a tv. Knowing you don't need a man is freeing so you only have one worth having. Men know when they aren't needed only wanted and treat you well or they are gone in short order. I know some women are stuck like my mother was with no job, no education and three babies. Dad told her if she left him he wouldn't pay child support. She believed a woman with children shouldn't work so even when she was mad at dad she didn't have the choice of saying shape up or ship out. They were married 47 years, she worked 20 of them after we left home, dad seemed to treat her much better the last 30 years.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 17, 2014 14:10:09 GMT -5
Okay, but the moment is past. Let's not ignore it any more. Why don't we feel that need to add "working"? Because it is either: 1) assumed he is working 2) is modified by "deadbeat"
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Dec 17, 2014 14:42:55 GMT -5
Alright, I am totally late to this party, BUT I did manage to read all 12 pages before responding. So the real challenge will be remembering everything I want to say.
About the OP: Given the information presented to us by moneymom, I see two options. 1) She does not understand her friend's actual financial situation as well as she thinks she does. This is NOT her fault. It would be a fault of having a different money language than her friend (or perhaps her friend outright lying/purposely mis-informing her). Her friend's family saves a ton but also spends a ton on fancy vacations. Moneymom thinks that these two things are independent of one another, they might not be, perhaps the ton they save is then instantly spent on vacations. Or perhaps her friend is embarrassed about her financial situation, given that Moneymom has her finances under control, and isn't admitting what things are really like. Perhaps, to quote that old debt consolidation commercial "she's up to her eyeballs in debt" and trying to hide it. 2) Her being upset had nothing to do with money and nothing to do with parenting. Perhaps it had everything to do with her relationship with her husband. He seems to have rules for her that she must follow- the choice of words here, about how he would never ALLOW her to not work is the key for me. Perhaps her marriage is on the rocks, perhaps she and her husband just had a huge fight about how each contributes to the family, etc. Given that this is a very close, long standing relationship, and the friend's response seemed to come out of the blue, I might stop my talking right then and ask "Is there something you need to talk about?" I say this, having been the person this summer, who "blew up" at my brother regarding the fact that I wasn't working. He was harassing me about taking UE while we had saving and me not working and all sorts of things, in a way that was consistent with our relationship. But, because I was suffering from situational depression regarding the issue, I knew I couldn't let the conversation to continue. We were driving in a car together (so I couldn't walk away), and had to tell him he needed to stop now, because of the emotional issues I had regarding the matter. In this case, there wasn't much he could have asked about (he knew how long I'd been out of work, and I told him I was suffering from depression regarding it), so he dropped the topic. But if I had just said- "stop it now", I would have expected him to ask me what was up.
Female friendships: This is something I actually talked to my female friends about. Within my community (role-playing gamers), it's very common for women to bond over the fact that we don't like other women. Stop and think about how stupid that is. I'm a woman. You're a woman. Neither of us like women, so obviously we should be friends. That's like me telling people I don't care about shoes, that I'm not into shoes, and then going home and trying to find a place to put all 30 pairs of my shoes. Here's the thing. I like some women. I don't like other women. Amazingly enough, I like some men. I don't like other men. Simply being female doesn't, in fact, decrease my chances of liking you. Simply being male doesn't increase my chances of liking you. Want to know what matters- do we have interests in common? Are there things we can talk about together? Things we can do together? Can we make each other laugh? And I say this as a female who had, let's be generous, 3 female friends in high school, and over a dozen male friends. But as an adult, most of my friends seem to come in couples. In some cases, I have more in common with the husband. In others, I have more in common with the wife. But in general, I have just as many female friends as I do male friends. (And, I'm learning to be friendly with Pop Tart's friends.)
Feeling a "need" to work. I come by this honestly. My mother was a stay at home mother for a good part of my childhood. My mother cannot NOT be busy. She sold Princess House Crystal, Avon, Tupperware, Watkins Spices, etc. She volunteered at the VA. So I had an example of a stay at home parent who found ways to keep herself busy, especially once I, the baby, was in school. And yet, my 9 months not working this year were MISERABLE for me. I suck at being a stay at home anything. I am just not happy. Are there things I like to do? Yes. I took my dogs to the park every day, but that filled up 90 minutes. I read. I played video games. I met friends for lunch. I did NOT clean. (I hate cleaning.) Even when I varied my days and did different things, I was bored. (Miss Tequila and I don't agree on everything, but this is one place where I am fully with her.) It was better when Pop Tart got out of school for the summer, but she was 10/11. She didn't want to spend all her time with me. She wanted to go to her friend's house. She wanted to meet her friend at the lake for swimming. She wanted to do some things with me (or, more rightly needed me to take her places), but in general, with the exception of driving her more places, my life wasn't really that much busier. And then it got less busy when she went to my mom's for 3 weeks. I like the mental stimulation of work. I like the variety of problems that occur each day. I like having a schedule and a routine. I am a better wife, mother, PERSON when I am working, because I am a happier person. It's that plain and simple. Does that make me worry about what I'll do when I retire? Not really. My father retired and then became a PI. My mom retired, started volunteering as an ASPCA thrift store and then parlayed that into a paying job with them. They are both happy. They both have freedom to do what they want, and they both have a way of maintaining the mental stimulation that they want. I expect I will be very similar. (We've always said our retirement plan was to buy some land and open our own no-kill animal shelter.)
Full-time parents vs part-time parenting. In order to say I work full time, I need to work 40 hours a week. I happen to not actually take my lunch, so I work 45 hours per week. No one is going to say I don't work full time. I spend 10 hours a week commuting. That leave 113 hours per week, that I am fully devoted to being a parent. Sometimes Pop Tart is at a friend's house or in an activity, but even so, I'm still spending more than 2x the number of hours parenting as I do working my full time job. I'm pretty certain that means I am also a full-time parent. (And yes, I know that we're sleeping during some of those hours, but those are on-call hours, since kids don't actually care what time of day it is when they need/want something.)
Raising kids to think being a stay at home parent is good/bad. Let me get my personal biases on this out in the open right away. On the off chance you don't know, I am the SOLE breadwinner for my family. My husband, C, is a stay at home parent, even after we paid for him to complete his combined BA/BS. This is something we have done by CHOICE. There was a time in our lives when we both needed to work to financially support our family/lifestyle. That is no longer the case. And OMG is he so good at being a stay at home parent and spouse. I honestly say, over and over again, that he makes me possible. I absolutely could not do the work I do, with the freedom I have to do it, without his contributions to the family. He is just as necessary to our lives as I am. But this is absolutely a choice on our part. And that's what we let our daughter know. That we all make choices. And sometimes we make choices that expand our options and sometimes we make choices that limit our options, and some choices do both. We would have more money to spend, and more options that go with that, if C worked. At the same time, options for after school programs, for scheduling anything, would all be much more limited if C worked. So our goal is to raise her so that she feels she has choices, and to understand the consequences of her choices, and also the ability and freedom to change those choices any time she wants. I say she, because we currently only have a daughter. If in this second round of adoption, we get a son, we'll be raising him with the same idea.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 14:50:23 GMT -5
Full-time parents vs part-time parenting. In order to say I work full time, I need to work 40 hours a week. I happen to not actually take my lunch, so I work 45 hours per week. No one is going to say I don't work full time. I spend 10 hours a week commuting. That leave 113 hours per week, that I am fully devoted to being a parent. Sometimes Pop Tart is at a friend's house or in an activity, but even so, I'm still spending more than 2x the number of hours parenting as I do working my full time job. I'm pretty certain that means I am also a full-time parent. (And yes, I know that we're sleeping during some of those hours, but those are on-call hours, since kids don't actually care what time of day it is when they need/want something.)
Never thought about it like that. Anything over 32 hours is considered full-time here and for a while I was a full time student (carried over 12 credits) while also working full-time. I got straight A's in college too, so I wasn't a slacker. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Dec 17, 2014 14:52:31 GMT -5
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Dec 17, 2014 14:57:16 GMT -5
Okay, but the moment is past. Let's not ignore it any more. Why don't we feel that need to add "working"? Because it is either: 1) assumed he is working 2) is modified by "deadbeat" Sometimes it's modified with "bum" ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) That's actually how C responds when people ask him what he does- he says "mostly I'm a bum"
While we are both happy with our situation, and he knows he could make the choice for it to be otherwise whenever he wanted, I hate that most people seem to think we should define ourselves to those we first meet via our jobs. C is an amazing father (really, he's a better parent than I am overall), a fabulous spouse, and an excellent cook. He's not so great at cleaning, but then, neither am I, and we just muddle through that together. But when asked what he does, he doesn't actually feel comfortable saying "I'm a Dad" , or "I'm a stay at home parent". He feels the need for self-deprecation and to say "I'm a bum". I actually think this bothers me more than it bothers him, because I so truly value what he brings to our relationship and our family, and I hate to think of others de-valuing those contributions.
But this all goes back to societal expectations, expectations that are slowly changing, and language changes even slower. Mom's are modified by "working mom". Believe it or not, I see it as an important step that we now also have the modifier "stay at home", as that means there is no longer a default assumption as to what you do as a female or as a female with children. The "stay at home" modifier is now used for Dad's, too. But there are fewer of them, and the default societal assumption is still that Dads, really, males in general, are working. I will absolutely see it as a victory when we feel the need to start modifying everyone with "stay at home" or "working". And once we're there, we can then start working on moving past defining people by their "jobs".
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Dec 17, 2014 14:59:14 GMT -5
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muttleynfelix
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Post by muttleynfelix on Dec 17, 2014 15:36:26 GMT -5
That is how I feel about my DH. It makes my life so much easier. He's also being completely supportive about a move to another state. He's the one leaving his support network (his mom and brother) and he's as excited or more excited than I am.
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Waffle
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Post by Waffle on Dec 17, 2014 15:39:39 GMT -5
Okay, but the moment is past. Let's not ignore it any more. Why don't we feel that need to add "working"? Because it is either: 1) assumed he is working 2) is modified by "deadbeat" Sometimes it's modified with "bum" ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) That's actually how C responds when people ask him what he does- he says "mostly I'm a bum"
Maybe C could start telling people that he's a "trophy husband " ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 15:42:04 GMT -5
I want a stay at home spouse. I don't care if it's a husband or wife.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Dec 17, 2014 15:49:44 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady - I highly recommend it.
There are two professional young ladies that I work with, where we were talking not that long ago, I think about what dinner plans were. One is single and was pondering going out to eat so she didn't have to cook. One lives with her boyfriend and was commenting that it was her night to cook, so she had to think of something. I mentioned that I had no idea what was for dinner, but that it would be on the table about half an hour after I got home, with no work on my part. Both expressed jealousy. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Dec 17, 2014 15:55:39 GMT -5
What about robots? When do we all get issued robot-nannies at birth? They stay with us forever, first changing our diapers, then making our lunch and helping with homework, and then cleaning, cooking, and washing the car? they will cost 200k, and no one is allowed to have a baby till they can buy one ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) This little guy can't help with diapers, but he would be kind of cool to have around:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 16:02:37 GMT -5
minnesotapaintlady - I highly recommend it.
There are two professional young ladies that I work with, where we were talking not that long ago, I think about what dinner plans were. One is single and was pondering going out to eat so she didn't have to cook. One lives with her boyfriend and was commenting that it was her night to cook, so she had to think of something. I mentioned that I had no idea what was for dinner, but that it would be on the table about half an hour after I got home, with no work on my part. Both expressed jealousy. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) I don't even think one would cost much! I could provide free room and board, health insurance, a cell phone, internet and bigscreen TV to watch. They can go out all night after I get home if they want. Run around, have a girl (or boy)friend on the side, I'm cool with that. Just have dinner on and the house clean! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) <runs off to revise the foot rub Craigslist ad>
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Dec 17, 2014 16:23:15 GMT -5
What about robots? When do we all get issued robot-nannies at birth? They stay with us forever, first changing our diapers, then making our lunch and helping with homework, and then cleaning, cooking, and washing the car? they will cost 200k, and no one is allowed to have a baby till they can buy one ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) This little guy can't help with diapers, but he would be kind of cool to have around: His voice is so cute ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/heart.png)
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Dec 17, 2014 18:23:48 GMT -5
I want a stay at home spouse. I don't care if it's a husband or wife. My husband does A LOT. But there are some days, that I really wish I had a wife, too.
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