trimommy
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Post by trimommy on Dec 13, 2014 19:32:07 GMT -5
As someone with a severely disabled family member, I reiterate that it is about their contribution not remuneration. I know the disabled can be productive, even if they do not generate an income. Interesting how a SAHM-WOHM discussion can turn on a dime! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/whistle.gif)
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trimommy
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Post by trimommy on Dec 13, 2014 19:33:54 GMT -5
Everything about this discussion always boils down to each family deciding what works best for them. And of course things will never be a penny-for-penny 50:50 split. I do not advocate keeping score at all (unless it works for you, in which case I don't really care). What I advocate, for my own children, is that they recognize they have intrinsic value to the world beyond what the support they can provide to a spouse or their children. They have more to give and do, whether that earns $10/hour or $100K/year. It is about their contribution, not their remuneration. So long as their contribution comes with a paycheck.... which is is actually the opposite of intrinsic... Sorry for the focus on the dollar amounts. I should have said starting at $0/hour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 19:42:46 GMT -5
You are contradicting yourself then? I'm very confused. They don't have value unless they have an income, so how can they have value at 0$...
Im not sure what you mean by the conversation turning on a dime?
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trimommy
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Post by trimommy on Dec 13, 2014 19:51:05 GMT -5
I meant the SAHM conversation somehow got spun into an implication that I inferred individuals with disabilities should consider suicide.
I want my kids to be ambitious and achieve their highest potential. That is not going to be taking care of a husband/wife/children. That is just part of what they can do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 19:54:06 GMT -5
You are misunderstanding. Bills was saying that teaching a child that they have no worth outside of a paycheck leaves them vulnerable should something happen that leaves them debilitated. In such a case, if the only thing they've been taught gives them value is gone, they could easily become suicidal.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 19:59:13 GMT -5
But, are women taught that they should be able to support a household by themselves?
I will be advocating living below one income if at all possible.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 13, 2014 20:10:44 GMT -5
I think it's becoming less common for men to be taught they have to be the breadwinner. I'm 34 and most men my age don't expect to be able to fully support a family. I think as more children grow up with working mothers that will help set expectations as well. Hopefully by the time people are in their thirties, reality has kicked in. As long as there is respect for the father who is not able to fully support the family, a working mother will help with an expectation that the male not be able to fully support the family.
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wanttofire
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Post by wanttofire on Dec 13, 2014 20:43:49 GMT -5
But, are women taught that they should be able to support a household by themselves? I will be advocating living below one income if at all possible. My daughter will be! She will be taught that she can do whatever she put her talents to as long as she works hard at it. She will also be taught to live below one income just like we do but we still both work.
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wanttofire
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Post by wanttofire on Dec 13, 2014 20:48:31 GMT -5
This is such a 1st world problem really. I'm a first time mom and I work, and to me is just normal to work. My mom was a sahm, so was my grandma and they love that I work and can support myself if I ever needed to. Another reason why my mom loves that I work...well because I help support her, because she didnt work and also got divorced and doesnt have much to her nane So do I want to be in her spot someday? No, thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 21:08:15 GMT -5
I think of it more as a first world opportunity myself. How nice to live in a place and time where we have so many options to live an ideal life of our definition and choosing...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 13, 2014 21:31:13 GMT -5
... can support myself if I ever needed to. ... What if this were a statement made by a male?
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wanttofire
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Post by wanttofire on Dec 13, 2014 22:26:29 GMT -5
... can support myself if I ever needed to. ... What if this were a statement made by a male? I meant support my family. And yes same expectation should be of men. Keep in mind that they are older so their idea of marriage was having men as the breadwinner and they did that but also saw that for some didnt work too well. I say the same for men that rely in the woman being the breadwinner.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 13, 2014 22:32:38 GMT -5
What if this were a statement made by a male? I meant support my family. ... Yes, I understood that.
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wanttofire
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Post by wanttofire on Dec 13, 2014 22:37:46 GMT -5
This whole topic can be argued so much and really it boils down to what works for each family and what risks people are willing to take. My DD is 2 yo and yes I would like for one of us to be home with her when she is older and is school or at least have the flexibility of only work her school hours so right now we are saving a lot! Reason why I think is important is because I don't want us to have a stressful life, running for pickups right after work, activities, etc. I want us to have quality of life. Right now, life is not bad, it is not stressful and I'm thankful that I waited until I was more advanced in my career to have a child as crazy to believe but with more responsibility in my career and more money I also have more flexibility. It also helps that my DD loves school and her friends so even if I was at home I think that she would benefit from being in that setting a few times a week. Now, would I love not to work? Of course! I can find many things to do. But I also like where we are and will be financially and the freedom that comes from having choices.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 13, 2014 23:08:02 GMT -5
This whole topic can be argued so much and really it boils down to what works for each family and what risks people are willing to take. My DD is 2 yo ... For me the topic boils down to what those who are 2 today, male and female, are going to be taught. Are girls going to be taught that they should be ready to support themselves and their family if they need to while boys are continued to be taught they should be ready to support themselves and their family.?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 23:14:25 GMT -5
I think its as important to teach to live below your means. I'm trying to teach that if both partners are capable of supporting a family (if you want one)... And live on less than one income, then you have a lot more options and security....
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wanttofire
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Post by wanttofire on Dec 13, 2014 23:26:08 GMT -5
This whole topic can be argued so much and really it boils down to what works for each family and what risks people are willing to take. My DD is 2 yo ... For me the topic boils down to what those who are 2 today, male and female, are going to be taught. Are girls going to be taught that they should be ready to support themselves and their family if they need to while boys are continued to be taught they should be ready to support themselves and their family.? I would teach them that they need to develop the skills and get the education needed to be independent and also to contribute to their families. If when married they choose to have a sahp then I would like them for them to be aware of what is needed to make that happen. I want DD to have choices, if it is to work great or be a sahm then great as well but I want her to be smart about it and understand consequences of both.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 13, 2014 23:37:34 GMT -5
... I want DD to have choices, ... Choice is good. All children should be taught that to work or be a sahp is a great choice.
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Dec 14, 2014 1:16:12 GMT -5
I think of it more as a first world opportunity myself. How nice to live in a place and time where we have so many options to live an ideal life of our definition and choosing... So this! ^^^ I've always felt so blessed being born in these times. My mom said she was always so proud of me that I started working so young, got my own apt. and never had to answer to a man like she did. She always told me that being independent of a man financially and making my own decisions would be the greatest gift she could give me. With her teachings I was always financially responsible and conscientious about everything I did. And when I found a great husband (ok - two great husbands) who supported whatever decision I made, whether it be that I worked, was a working step parent, stayed home step parent, didn't want my own children, and even suggested I stop working if I wanted to, in a healthy, loving and financially successful way she said she could die knowing I was going to be ok. She didn't always agree with my decisions (but admitted she was wrong when she fought me on some) but she was proud of me and my strength and even admitted to being a bit jealous at the way I lived my life and how I was true to myself without being selfish. She said she knew she did a good job raising her daughter and that gave her validation that she did something right in her life. Her sons and her own life... she always questioned how she failed so miserably especially since she was so easy on the boys in her parenting style. Mom, May your teachings continue to serve me well even though we didn't always see eye to eye. She always said being a mom was her greatest accomplishment in life. I hope that was really true. God bless you, mom! May you RIP (3 years on 12/23). ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/heart.png)
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Post by Apple on Dec 14, 2014 1:48:49 GMT -5
I hope my kids grow up happy. I don't have a categorical theory on how I want them to live. I want mine to be happy, and not financially dependent on me. I'd be good with that ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Dec 14, 2014 10:30:54 GMT -5
Although I did not live my dream career, I am grateful that even though my parents sent me to college to marry a college educated man, they also insisted I get a job skill. I didn't appreciate it really ever until I was on my own with two kids. The fact that I had a job made our lives possible without them being shamed by me being on the public dole or them not having the things that others had. In fact I worked two other jobs to provide for them better but I could have managed on my teachers salary. Glad I didn't have to. I've also been guilty of being too easy on DS maybe too hard on DD but she still sees the ramifications of being dependent on a man for an income and has learned from it. She will always be the independent one and Im glad. I think DS was dumped by at least two women that I know of for not being a high wage earner and having a "get out there and kill" personality.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 14, 2014 14:05:55 GMT -5
Seems she is teaching that being or having one parent not working for pay is inherently inferior. It seems like she's saying if they would choose, or for some reason need, to have a one income household, that she would not value or respect them as highly. Everyone can raise their kids as they see fit, obviously. It's not a position I'd take. It is that "need" that would concern me. Can you imagine being raised that you only have value if you are working outside of the home and you become disabled. Set-up for suicide? And being raised that you only have value if you are home and parenting children often sets people up for very uncomfortable "empty-nest" scenarios. And being raised that having one SAHP is superior, often sets people up for guilt when someone needs to or chooses to work.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 14, 2014 14:20:45 GMT -5
It is that "need" that would concern me. Can you imagine being raised that you only have value if you are working outside of the home and you become disabled. Set-up for suicide? And being raised that you only have value if you are home and parenting children often sets people up for very uncomfortable "empty-nest" scenarios. And being raised that having one SAHP is superior, often sets people up for guilt when someone needs to or chooses to work. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png) And being raised that multiple options exist and that any are "right" if it is the one you desire sets a person up for the best chance for a positive outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 14:26:07 GMT -5
It is that "need" that would concern me. Can you imagine being raised that you only have value if you are working outside of the home and you become disabled. Set-up for suicide? And being raised that you only have value if you are home and parenting children often sets people up for very uncomfortable "empty-nest" scenarios. And being raised that having one SAHP is superior, often sets people up for guilt when someone needs to or chooses to work. No one advocated this that I saw...
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 14, 2014 15:35:59 GMT -5
Seems she is teaching that being or having one parent not working for pay is inherently inferior. It seems like she's saying if they would choose, or for some reason need, to have a one income household, that she would not value or respect them as highly. Everyone can raise their kids as they see fit, obviously. It's not a position I'd take. It is that "need" that would concern me. Can you imagine being raised that you only have value if you are working outside of the home and you become disabled. Set-up for suicide? As someone who was raised this way, it is incredibly hard when your profession is tied up in your ego and your self worth.....and you can't do it anymore. I wouldn't say it was a set up for suicide though, but it IS a rough road....not so much the ego/self worth, but you tend to isolate yourself more than you should when you can't do what others do. This habit becomes incredibly difficult to break out of, and I could see if you had a history of depression how all of this feeds back on itself.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 14, 2014 23:19:08 GMT -5
And being raised that you only have value if you are home and parenting children often sets people up for very uncomfortable "empty-nest" scenarios. And being raised that having one SAHP is superior, often sets people up for guilt when someone needs to or chooses to work. No one advocated this that I saw... My Mom and both of my sisters did. Anytime you give your child one option, you are sending a message that could easily damage them or your relationship, or whatever. I suspect most people grow up thinking that their home is "normal" and they work toward something that has something in common with that. Certainly being a working mom isn't making me a trail-blazer, but I sure felt that way in my family.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:03:29 GMT -5
Definitions do not praise or insult anyone. Definitions just are. I just made the mistake of assuming that making the distinction between someone who's primary role is work, and someone who's primary role is parenting is not terribly controversial. I forgot that there are those who think it's possible that they be both primarily a parent, and primarily an employee even though it sounds as silly to a rational reader as it does to me as I just typed it. The alternative would be to admit that one is not primarily a parent, or homemaker and I guess we're reading into it that I find that morally reprehensible and there's some judgment attached to the statement. As I said before- far from it. I'm simply pointing out that the words "Stay At Home" are inaccurate at best, and at worst deliberately condescending. A person- mother or father, may simply have placed a higher priority on raising the children and keeping the home than being employed, running a business, or otherwise generating income. The over-senstivity on the subject is a sign of low self-esteem, or guilt- justified or not, I won't be the one to say- and not anything I've said. We're human. We're not omnipresent. We simply cannot be a full time employee and full time parent. We can't be primarily an employee, and primarily a parent. And even though time isn't the ONLY way to measure our priorities, it's heavily weighted in determining someone's priorities. After all, time is the essence of life. What defines our priorities better than how we spend our time? And look, I understand a person going to work and saying, "I'm doing this for my family", but whatever our reasons- there are only so many hours in a day and how we spend them is how we spend them. Made-up stupid defitions can be insulting. The only difference between you and me is my kids are in school 2.5 hours more per day on average. Actually there is one more difference...you are splitting duties with someone. Unless you are both present 100% of the non-school hours, that is, which I doubt. So hour to hour comparison...I've got about 120 hours per week. You've got at best 133, if you never leave your wife alone with the kids, which again I doubt. At best you have 10% more hours than me. Sorry, but that doesn't really distinguish you as full- time and me part-time, imo. To think I value work over family and therefore I am not a full-time parent is just silly and insulting. My kids come first just like yours do for you. I agree, and the prime example of a "made up stupid definition" that can be insulting is: SAHM. Whereas, the concept of full time, and/or number one, two, or three priorities are pretty easy to grasp. What's your number one priority? The way to tell is to take a measure of three things: where does your time, treasure, and talent go? Is it primarily to an employer or outside interest, or is it to your kids? Time is the only commodity there is. I used to do a presentation for my consulting business called "Buy Back Your Time". It's the entire concept of retirement- buying time. I said all that to say this- when you imply 2.5 hours per day is not a big deal simply shows you do not know the value of time. Let's say you get four weeks- or 20 work days off per year, and you take every weekend off without exception-- that's 293 days x 2.5 hours = 733 hours, or a full month every year. Try telling your employer you're cutting back on your hours, but "only" 2.5 hours per day.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:06:13 GMT -5
What's weird about the debate is that most parents will at one time or the other have taken on all these roles: working, not working, working more than full time, working part time. Unless you are a member of a fundamentalist religion it's very unlikely that you will be simply one thing the entire time your child is a minor. I agree. I've switched roles. But I've never confused what the roles are, or tried to fool myself into believing part time is full time.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:14:42 GMT -5
This whole topic can be argued so much and really it boils down to what works for each family and what risks people are willing to take. My DD is 2 yo and yes I would like for one of us to be home with her when she is older and is school or at least have the flexibility of only work her school hours so right now we are saving a lot! Reason why I think is important is because I don't want us to have a stressful life, running for pickups right after work, activities, etc. I want us to have quality of life. Right now, life is not bad, it is not stressful and I'm thankful that I waited until I was more advanced in my career to have a child as crazy to believe but with more responsibility in my career and more money I also have more flexibility. It also helps that my DD loves school and her friends so even if I was at home I think that she would benefit from being in that setting a few times a week. Now, would I love not to work? Of course! I can find many things to do. But I also like where we are and will be financially and the freedom that comes from having choices. Your daughter is 2. She doesn't go to school.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Dec 17, 2014 9:17:59 GMT -5
And being raised that you only have value if you are home and parenting children often sets people up for very uncomfortable "empty-nest" scenarios. And being raised that having one SAHP is superior, often sets people up for guilt when someone needs to or chooses to work. No one advocated this that I saw... Nope. I never picked up on that, either. Do what's right for your family. Just obey the 11th Commandment: thou shalt not bullshit thyself. Just recognize what your priorities are, what your primary responsibilities are, and where you spend your time-- and if you don't like it, change the situations, not the definitions.
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