milee
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Post by milee on Sept 17, 2014 7:39:33 GMT -5
Love is love. A child is a child. Biology doesn't enter into that connection. For you. Or for me. Or for MPL, Carl or many of the other posters.
But biology does enter into the connection for some people and it's important that we allow them to be honest with that feeling when they are making decisions for their family. If we create a space where our revulsion regarding their belief or self righteous declaration of how things should be forces people to ignore or conceal something they deeply believe, it can cause issues like Zib described where people enter into a situation yet can't bring themselves to parent the child like they would a biologically related child.
We may not agree with the idea that biology is necessary for love, but we need to let others make that decision for themselves without judging or shaming them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 17, 2014 7:44:22 GMT -5
Love is love. A child is a child. Biology doesn't enter into that connection. For you. Or for me. Or for MPL, Carl or many of the other posters.
But biology does enter into the connection for some people and it's important that we allow them to be honest with that feeling when they are making decisions for their family. If we create a space where our revulsion regarding their belief or self righteous declaration of how things should be forces people to ignore or conceal something they deeply believe, it can cause issues like Zib described where people enter into a situation yet can't bring themselves to parent the child like they would a biologically related child.
We may not agree with the idea that biology is necessary for love, but we need to let others make that decision for themselves without judging or shaming them.
No argument here and I don't revile anyone. If biological connection is that important to someone they need to know that and act accordingly in their life. It's not up to us to decide for them. What most of us post here is simply the way we see something, and isn't intended to tell others how to see that same thing. Individuals will be individuals and that's as it should be, IMO.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Sept 17, 2014 7:54:08 GMT -5
My concern would be that the child would find out at some point and feel ashamed about something they have no control over. Ashamed and then most likely betrayed about the lie. So honesty in age appropriate ways is always my first choice, but I'm not saying that would be simple. I can't imagine ever walking away from a child who I had parented for 2 years. Ashamed why? Ashamed they were a product of a cheating scandal or ashamed for not being "genetically" their fathers? As a man that is "strongly" considering raising a child that is not biologically mine; I will be damned the day someone tells me they are not "technically" my child. I will give said child my last name, feed them, raise them, mold them into the person they grow into. You bet your ass that child is mine. As my mom said: genetics are overrated, give me my grand baby already! My husband's family is.... complicated.... if you get down to the genetic technicalities of everything. His family is much simpler if you look at the bonds. He has 3 brothers and 4 sisters. Just because one is not genetically his brother does not make him not his brother. just because some of them have different father does not make them not siblings. His family is the people who care about each other and want to be in each other's lives. That being said, parentage and relation-status is not a taboo subject for the in-laws, just one that is unimportant when you look at everything. This being said, my parents have been absorbed into 'the family'
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 17, 2014 8:31:55 GMT -5
I don't blame my friend for being angry that the girl was not his daughter. I'm angry about the way he handled it. I can't believe his wife never figured out that he knew the girl wasnt his. But then he never wanted another child and was pretty much a poop from the time he found out she was pregnant again so finding out the girl really wasnt his just was icing on the marital cake. In his petty mind, he got even by ignoring them both and focusing everything on his bio child. I have to think she either figured it out and just wanted to stay married anyway or she just figured he was acting that way because he didnt want another child. He also gets even btw, by having affairs left and right and because he rarely lived at home due to his career path, he was able to pass himself off as single. I get that he wants to get even with his wife but he also hurts innocent women who think he's single because he always implies he is. He never flat out lies and that's his excuse. The women don't ASK him if he's married. Well, if I could call my boyfriend whenever and every time I saw him including weekends, he was living on his own, I'd think he was single too. Finding out later when you're emotionally invested sucks. I stopped respecting him and then I just stopped contact.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Sept 17, 2014 8:40:32 GMT -5
I don't blame my friend for being angry that the girl was not his daughter. I'm angry about the way he handled it. I can't believe his wife never figured out that he knew the girl wasnt his. But then he never wanted another child and was pretty much a poop from the time he found out she was pregnant again so finding out the girl really wasnt his just was icing on the marital cake. In his petty mind, he got even by ignoring them both and focusing everything on his bio child. I have to think she either figured it out and just wanted to stay married anyway or she just figured he was acting that way because he didnt want another child. He also gets even btw, by having affairs left and right and because he rarely lived at home due to his career path, he was able to pass himself off as single. I get that he wants to get even with his wife but he also hurts innocent women who think he's single because he always implies he is. He never flat out lies and that's his excuse. The women don't ASK him if he's married. Well, if I could call my boyfriend whenever and every time I saw him including weekends, he was living on his own, I'd think he was single too. Finding out later when you're emotionally invested sucks. I stopped respecting him and then I just stopped contact. That's horrible. He was a real prize too
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 17, 2014 8:42:15 GMT -5
Yup, a real prize. Trouble is, he used to be a great guy so it really bites to see him be such a USER and a turd.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Sept 17, 2014 9:56:14 GMT -5
I know two families raising children that the dads know are not theirs. It's been awkward, but they love the kids and have committed to raising them. 1) our neighbors growing up. It was long suspected that the wife from family A was cheating with the husband from family B. But no one could ever confirm it. When she got pregnant with her 3rd, the baby was born the spitting image of husband from family B (brown hair & blue eyes vs. her other two kids with red hair and green eyes like the wife & husband from family A). Now she's 18 and looks so much like her bio dad it's crazy, and could pass for the twin of his other daughter! Not sure she knows the truth at all. Family B moved away and supposedly there's been no contact whatsoever in 15 years or so. 2) my BIL is "raising" a boy that his ex swears is his, but refuses to get a child support order or allow for a paternity test. My BIL is mexican and so is his ex. Their girls are very dark like their parents, but this boy is blonde with green eyes like mom's sister's boyfriend Seriously, the kid has to be his son. They look EXACTLY alike. But BIL's position is that he loves this kid and there's no harm in parenting him and letting him have one decent influence in his life (ex is seriously messed up). If BIL pushed for a paternity test and confirmed the kid wasn't his, then the ex would never let BIL see the kid again, and then what would that do for the little boy?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 17, 2014 9:59:17 GMT -5
He can test without her know,edge or consent. The guys I know that found out did just this.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 17, 2014 10:00:31 GMT -5
Except for the one that did it while getting divorced. That had to be done via court system in case he wasnt the father so he didnt have to pay child support.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Sept 17, 2014 10:05:18 GMT -5
Well, the kid is 12 now so I am pretty sure he would tell his mom if he got tested. It's not like BIL is paying child support on him right now anyway. Actually, since the girls are older (one out of HS, one about to graduate) it's not very likely that mom will let the boy come out for the summers any more anyway. I see her using him as a pawn now to try & guilt my BIL into providing support outside of a court agreement. It's all a very long, sad situation. Those kids never had a chance with that lady as their mom. BIL wasn't a prize either in his earlier days and has some drug convictions, so while he's turned his life around and is a great guy now (we let DD go over there all the time even without us), he can't get custody of the kids. Oh the messes you can make when you are 19 that will haunt the rest of your life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 10:46:56 GMT -5
Divorce sucks, granted the circumstances dictate the level of "suck".
Mine was similar to yours in duration and we were able to do it without lawyers (I bought a kit online for the paperwork). It does take two people who can agree on the division of everything and someone who is good with paperwork but I'd suggest checking out what it would take in your state and it may save you a ton of money.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 17, 2014 10:49:26 GMT -5
Miss T, I don't know the answer. I'm guessing it would be SUCH a mess, finding out that the child you thought was yours really isn't. In my scenario, there is love too. Less daily presence, maybe, but still love and still presence. Yeah, I couldn't do that (distance myself but still be in the child's life). I'd either want to be in or out. I think *probably* I'd still want to be in, but I can easily imagine how someone might want to be out. Yes, you have a bond with that child but biology *does* matter to a lot of people. Why else do people have biological children when there are so many kids out there who need to be adopted? (Okay, there are lots of reasons but this one was definitely a factor for me and I don't mind admitting it.) I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, either. I wanted a biological child and I personally considered that to be a more selfish choice than adopting. But it's still one I felt strongly about because the biological tie mattered to me. So finding out that Babybird wasn't biologically mine (especially due to a spousal trick) would be incredibly painful. I can't say for sure it wouldn't change how I felt about her. I hope it wouldn't - I hope I'm a better person than that. I'd still be her mommy and I can't imagine pulling away from her (especially if there wasn't another GOOD mommy waiting in the wings). But I could imagine it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 17, 2014 10:52:24 GMT -5
We may not agree with the idea that biology is necessary for love, but we need to let others make that decision for themselves without judging or shaming them.
Exactly. This is basically what I was trying to say, but milee said it better.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 17, 2014 10:54:53 GMT -5
I know two families raising children that the dads know are not theirs. It's been awkward, but they love the kids and have committed to raising them.
Again - I think it's different if you know from the start that the baby isn't yours (or might not be yours) and have chosen to accept that and raise them as your own regardless. That's on par with adoption in my mind.
It's different (or I could imagine it being different) if you find out down the line that they're not yours after all when you always thought they were.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 17, 2014 11:39:52 GMT -5
I know two families raising children that the dads know are not theirs. It's been awkward, but they love the kids and have committed to raising them.
Again - I think it's different if you know from the start that the baby isn't yours (or might not be yours) and have chosen to accept that and raise them as your own regardless. That's on par with adoption in my mind. It's different (or I could imagine it being different) if you find out down the line that they're not yours after all when you always thought they were. I agree that there is a difference, but I still can't imagine making a child suffer for choices they had no control over. Abandoning a child--even if you're justified in your reasons why--are still incredibly likely to have long term negative impacts on that child. If you choose to have/keep a child, than I strongly believe that you should be choosing to put the childs needs above your own (I'm not talking about never doing anything for yourself and letting a child live in your basement playing video games for decades). That child still needs to be loved and cared for regardless of genetics, and while I can respect people's choices who need to have a biological connection to their children, I could never respect a person who walked away from their child. Regardless of the reason.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 17, 2014 12:17:10 GMT -5
Abandoning a child--even if you're justified in your reasons why--are still incredibly likely to have long term negative impacts on that child.
Very true and that's why (if there wasn't another mom waiting in the wings, like there might be with a hospital swap) I think/believe/hope I would try my hardest and get therapy if I had to in order to continue being the child's parent.
It's definitely not the kid's fault and I certainly do believe people could get past it. On the other hand, if they really can't then they're probably better off cutting ties with the kid (especially if it's still a baby/toddler and capable of adjusting to a single-parent lifestyle without really remembering their other parent), rather than being an ambivalent parent.
I think lacking a parent is better in some ways than having a parent who isn't sure they really love/want you (especially if you have a single parent who definitely loves/wants you). Kids sense how their parents feel about them and parents who feel negatively (or ambivalently) can do even more damage than absentee parents sometimes.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 17, 2014 13:39:37 GMT -5
2) my BIL is "raising" a boy that his ex swears is his, but refuses to get a child support order or allow for a paternity test. My BIL is mexican and so is his ex. Their girls are very dark like their parents, but this boy is blonde with green eyes like mom's sister's boyfriend Seriously, the kid has to be his son. They look EXACTLY alike. But BIL's position is that he loves this kid and there's no harm in parenting him and letting him have one decent influence in his life (ex is seriously messed up). If BIL pushed for a paternity test and confirmed the kid wasn't his, then the ex would never let BIL see the kid again, and then what would that do for the little boy? I know you probably have a good understanding of the situation first hand. I do think sometimes folks can't just assume paternity on looks. All three of my kids have different hair color, eye color, and skin tones. One of my kids is blonde, and there is no blonde in our family for at least 2 generations. We all look similar to some degree. The kids are not a spitting image of either one of us. In fact, I think one of my kids, you have to go back three generations (to great grandparent) to find someone that looks "close." I also know another family like ours: three kids with vastly different hair color/texture, etc. The kids also do not really look specifically like one parent or the other.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Sept 17, 2014 14:01:43 GMT -5
Would you tell the child if they weren't the bio child of both parents or suspected they might not be. My brother has a daughter who was born to his wife while she was having an affair. She is 42 now and nobody knows if he is the bio dad or not but nobody seems to care. As far as I know she doesn't know she might not be his bio child we even her mother wouldn't know. Her son was the bio son of a man she didn't care about, he agreed to stay out of his life if she didn't ask for child support. Her boyfriend married her knowing it wasn't his child, conceived while they were broken up. He put his name on birth certificate as father, gave his first name as boy's middle name, never told his family it wasn't his baby. They divorced when boy was 10 but he still acted like a father, boy is 22 now and thinks dad's new baby is his half sister. Should someone tell him who is father was? What good would it do except for medical issues? He hasn't ever seen his bio dad and it would mess up his relationship with the entire dad's side of family, his grandmother would be devastated if she found out. They didn't tell her because she wouldn't have accepted him as an infant.
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Sept 17, 2014 14:10:44 GMT -5
2) my BIL is "raising" a boy that his ex swears is his, but refuses to get a child support order or allow for a paternity test. My BIL is mexican and so is his ex. Their girls are very dark like their parents, but this boy is blonde with green eyes like mom's sister's boyfriend Seriously, the kid has to be his son. They look EXACTLY alike. But BIL's position is that he loves this kid and there's no harm in parenting him and letting him have one decent influence in his life (ex is seriously messed up). If BIL pushed for a paternity test and confirmed the kid wasn't his, then the ex would never let BIL see the kid again, and then what would that do for the little boy? I know you probably have a good understanding of the situation first hand. I do think sometimes folks can't just assume paternity on looks. All three of my kids have different hair color, eye color, and skin tones. One of my kids is blonde, and there is no blonde in our family for at least 2 generations. We all look similar to some degree. The kids are not a spitting image of either one of us. In fact, I think one of my kids, you have to go back three generations (to great grandparent) to find someone that looks "close." I also know another family like ours: three kids with vastly different hair color/texture, etc. The kids also do not really look specifically like one parent or the other. It's easy for that to happen when there are mostly dominant traits manifested. However, if my mother had stepped out on my father, for instance, it would've been relatively easy to tell if I was genetically his kid.Both my parents manifest many recessive traits: blue eyes, lack of a hitchkiker's thumb, long second toe, light hair color, etc.... if I had popped out with brown eyes, Dad would've known!!!! Also I only had two possible blood genotypes AO or AB (Dad is AA+ and Mom is BO+), I'm A+ so I have A) genotype... if I had popped out with B or O type blood, Mom would've been in trouble!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 14:32:53 GMT -5
Crone, outside the medical issue, the biggest thing to me would be, which would hurt most, letting them know, or chancing they find out on their own and feel betrayed/question their whole being/situation... Plus, I'm a person who just likes to know stuff
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Sept 18, 2014 11:44:16 GMT -5
Hey guys, I've only read to page 7. I've been MIA since I took a few days off to take care of myself. Received some really hurtful news on Monday night. I will try to answer all the questions I have read so far.
Paternity test. No need for it. It is definitely his child, looks just like him, and was created before they were even married, when she was so in love with him she wouldn't even look at another guy.
The son who caught them is going to get some counseling. He is not only guilty that he held the secret in so long, but he's pretty upset at his stepmother right now too. She's been in his life for as long as he can remember, and he is not handling it well that she would be so horrible.
His wife is a mess, begging him to take her back, saying how sorry she is, she shows up crying on the doorstep. Just a miserable mess. I don't know if he will take her back, but at the point, it would make me happier. My STBX has been trying to contact her non-stop, he even sent her flowers at work yesterday. At this point, I just don't want them to end up together. I know my STBX started the whole thing, and probably seduced her. Its what he does. But she basically things he's a horrible person and wants nothing to do with him.
STBX has been telling everyone in his family, and many mutual friends, that I'm the one who had the affair. I had two friends tell me they heard it from his mom. I emailed her and told her she is spreading lies, this is a private matter that doesn't involve her and she needs to stop or my lawyer will send a cease and desist. She of course denied it, and said how sorry she is, and that she loves me and is just sick at what her son did to me. Whatever.
My STBX was also text me a lot, at first asking if I was okay, blah blah blah, then the conversations would turn into he's not sure he really ever loved me and he didn't want to get married but felt pressured. This was obviously very hurtful to me, so I changed my number and my mother sent a text saying she will be the one communication with him from now on, and he needs to let her know his address when he gets a place so she can serve him the divorce papers.
He got all of his stuff out of the house Monday when I was at work and left all of his keys, so I never have to see him again, which is good. I'm just taking things one day at a time. I'm pretty lonely, but I realized I've been alone for a long time, since even when he was living with me, he was always drunk, and always on his phone texting.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Sept 18, 2014 11:46:35 GMT -5
Hurley, I'm in favor of the paternity test for your BFF. I think he deserves to know the truth, and then do with it what he will. And one other thing: both your STBXs need to be tested for STDs. Even if they swear they were only cheating with each other, you have no idea if it was true. If nothing else, get yourself tested. You don't want to have anything left behind by a cheating XH, because some things left behind are forever. that's a really good point. If he was going after the MOH and this good friend - who knows what he was up to with people you don't even know? get tested. I have this on my list of things to do, right up there with filing for divorce, and getting counseling.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 18, 2014 11:48:43 GMT -5
Hey guys, I've only read to page 7. I've been MIA since I took a few days off to take care of myself. Received some really hurtful news on Monday night. I will try to answer all the questions I have read so far.
Hurley, I'm so sorry you got some hurtful news when you've got enough on your plate already dealing with this I hope you're not upset that we hijacked the thread with the paternity test debate. I feel kind of insensitive for focusing on your friend and how much "worse" his situation is because there are children involved. Doesn't mean you're not in pain and dealing with emotional trauma right now also.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 18, 2014 11:51:08 GMT -5
I'm so sorry Hurley. He's a complete ass and the silver lining I see in this is that you found out early and can completely kick him to the curb.
Stay strong--take care of yourself!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 18, 2014 11:53:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry Hurley. Hang in there.
You deserve better.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Sept 18, 2014 11:54:07 GMT -5
No worries, but I can assure you all the child is his.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 18, 2014 11:55:42 GMT -5
All that bit about never wanting to get married and being "pressured" is hokey, pure and simple. It's sour grapes and a way to try to hurt you and put the blame on everyone except himself. That's what people like him do. It's natural to feel lonely at first, but you'll get past that as things start to even out and he goes away. When you can, seek out friends and outings to give yourself some diversions. You're a strong woman and you're going to do just fine!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2014 11:56:18 GMT -5
I think for a few pages there it got a bit more theoretical Sorry this is happening, hang in there. Vent all you want!
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 18, 2014 12:00:03 GMT -5
I think for a few pages there it got a bit more theoretical Speak for yourself, I'm doing a maternity test on Babybird
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Sept 18, 2014 12:06:03 GMT -5
I'm so sorry Hurley. He's a complete ass and the silver lining I see in this is that you found out early and can completely kick him to the curb. Stay strong--take care of yourself! Rae said it better than I could.
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