damnotagain
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Post by damnotagain on Aug 18, 2014 20:03:16 GMT -5
Holding myself!
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Aug 18, 2014 20:04:59 GMT -5
Ok lets ask all the people on here that have been betrayed and at what level the betrayal was, is is screwing? Is it an emotional thing? Is it secrets? Is it hiding things?
Frankly my cheatonometer is talking with another women about ME and HIM and our marriage.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Aug 18, 2014 21:13:11 GMT -5
I don't believe in love at first sight either. Love is far too complex and mature an emotion for that. What I DO believe, however, is that if you truly know yourself and have even decent emotional maturity and powers of observation, that you can know very quickly whether a certain person is someone who you can love. Not whether you WILL love them, but whether you CAN. By observing them and the interactions with you, comparing to what you know about yourself, and extrapolating from that? Yes, I absolutely believe that is possible.
Far too many people confuse love and lust. Many do so because they have no real idea what love is, but have heard the term so much that they believe whatever intense emotion they happen to be feeling MUST be that. Sad.
LOL! You know what I will add to this but I'll just shut up now. I'm one that believes in love at first sight and have experienced it along with the lust I had for him. Now it's just plain old stupid love.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Aug 18, 2014 22:01:09 GMT -5
I fell in love with dh without realizing it was happening. I was young, immature, and incredibly dumb, but it happens.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2014 9:58:59 GMT -5
I don't believe in love at first sight, but I think there's a VERY thin line between "I like this person a lot as a friend" and "I'm in love with them". I think it would be very easy to realize one day "damn, i think i'm in love with that person, I need to do something to keep anything from happening". I think there's a progression, but I think the progression steps at the "love" end basically move from "i really like this person as a friend" to "i'm in love with them". I think the only way to avoid it is to just decide to never be friends with anyone attractive, which seems unrealistic.
I also think people place this "magical" label on "love". Love is not a special thing. I love lots of people. I love some of my friends. I think it's not inconceivable that without intending to I love some of my friends, and one day i realize i love one of them a little more than I should for a friend. At the point of realization, it's too late, you love them. You can't simply decide to un-love them. It's a feeling. I can certainly decide I don't intend to act on it, or put myself into any kind of compromising situation, and eventually I will likely not love them in the same way anymore.
The alternative is to become a hermit and never love anyone or anything. Maybe my opinion is based primarily on the idea that I don't think love is necessarily this magic rainbow between 2 people that shall never be tainted.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Aug 20, 2014 10:19:06 GMT -5
Ok lets ask all the people on here that have been betrayed and at what level the betrayal was, is is screwing? Is it an emotional thing? Is it secrets? Is it hiding things? Frankly my cheatonometer is talking with another women about ME and HIM and our marriage. To tell you the truth- When DH had his affair (from start to restraining order was nearly 18 months- but not continuously). The thing that hurt the most was their conversations. Yes the physical stuff was a kick in the gut but what hurt the most was all the times he chose to tell her about his day and not me. All the times he'd email her during the day and tell me "I'm too busy to talk now".
I have first hand knowledge of every text and email they exchanged because as part of her stalking me she sent me copies of them on multiple occasions. She would forward me dozens upon dozens of their emails a day (after the affair ended). He would stop on the way home from work to exchange texts with her. In was the constant communication while I was being ignored that hurt.
We do have a facebook "rule". He reconnected with her on myspace back in 2006. They had gone to college together. I didn't know he had a myspace account. When we first joined facebook, he had a few girls from high school private messaging him and whining about their husbands and telling him how sweet he was. He told me and I told him that I wasn't comfortable with that so he unfriended some of them and told others that he wasn't comfortable exchanging private messages with them and that he wouldn't respond if they sent him one. For the most part they have respected that and not pushed the issue.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Aug 20, 2014 10:27:03 GMT -5
Ok lets ask all the people on here that have been betrayed and at what level the betrayal was, is is screwing? Is it an emotional thing? Is it secrets? Is it hiding things? Frankly my cheatonometer is talking with another women about ME and HIM and our marriage. That is usually a first step that only leads to bad things, IMHO. So, I agree with you. At that point, the marriage / relationship is probably not fixable (not in all cases, of course).
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 11:35:27 GMT -5
I also think people place this "magical" label on "love". Love is not a special thing. I love lots of people. I love some of my friends. hoops902 is capable of love. Faith in humanity restored.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 20, 2014 11:39:10 GMT -5
It definitely starts with sharing your private relationship and its issues with another person. It progresses from there. Painfully.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 11:39:41 GMT -5
Frankly my cheatonometer is talking with another women about ME and HIM and our marriage.
I like the "walls and mirrors" metaphor. Your marriage is a house and there are some parts of it that are visible to everyone (windows) and then some parts that are just between the two of you (walls). Problems may arise when you start switching those around - you start telling a "friend" about stuff you used to keep behind the walls, and meanwhile you stop sharing those things with your spouse. sheilaincali, I can totally understand why the emotional sharing and connection would hurt more than the physical affair. I've long felt that I could probably get over a physical affair (e.g. one night stand) because hey, shit happens. But a conscientious choice to shut me out every day while letting someone else in - I am not at all sure I could get over that.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Aug 20, 2014 11:49:46 GMT -5
Firebird- that's it exactly. It was the emotional connection and the sharing of his day to day life that really hurt. She lived several states away so they only met up 4 times over the course of the affair but every day they communicated. Every day he would exchanged emails and texts with her. It ended 7 1/2 years ago, 7 years ago this month we were awarded the restraining order and 4 months after that she died. So I know for a FACT that it is over with that woman. Had she not died she would still be harassing us. She was insane. She violated the RO 3 hours after it was issued.
I'd ask DH "so anything interesting happen today?" and he'd say "no, my day was boring" and then excuse himself from the room a few minutes later to spend 20 minutes texting back and forth with her and telling her about his day.
I like to say I've moved past it but there are still days in which it all comes back and smacks me upside the back of the head. A thread like this could cause vivid dreams about the affair, a movie, the plot of a tv show, an article in a magazine, etc. Little things will trigger all of the memories and emotions associated with it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 11:55:44 GMT -5
I like to say I've moved past it but there are still days in which it all comes back and smacks me upside the back of the head. A thread like this could cause vivid dreams about the affair, a movie, the plot of a tv show, an article in a magazine, etc. Little things will trigger all of the memories and emotions associated with it. I'm truly sorry to hear that, understandable as it is. I have my own memories around infidelity. They're hard to shake and random things do bring them to the surface.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 20, 2014 11:56:29 GMT -5
It never goes away, ever. I know DF isn't cheating, yet, I have to stop myself from looking at his phone or iPad. The impulse is there. Now I know why addicts are addicts.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Aug 20, 2014 12:10:13 GMT -5
DH is pretty open about his addiction and I tell him when I am having a paranoid day. He's taken steps to elevate some of my paranoia and fears.
We have a shared cloud so any contact he adds is automatically added to my phone too. We have a lot of mutual friends on facebook. When he is going out of town with his friends he is good about sending me a pic of them all together at the convention or whatever they are doing.
I don't regret forgiving him and working on our marriage but just because I forgave him didn't mean that I forgot what happened. He knows he screwed up and he knows that there are days in which I will wake up completely paranoid and demand to see his phone or something. It's rare but it does happen once every few months.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 20, 2014 12:46:29 GMT -5
I don't believe in love at first sight, but I think there's a VERY thin line between "I like this person a lot as a friend" and "I'm in love with them". I think it would be very easy to realize one day "damn, i think i'm in love with that person, I need to do something to keep anything from happening". I think there's a progression, but I think the progression steps at the "love" end basically move from "i really like this person as a friend" to "i'm in love with them". I think the only way to avoid it is to just decide to never be friends with anyone attractive, which seems unrealistic. I also think people place this "magical" label on "love". Love is not a special thing. I love lots of people. I love some of my friends. I think it's not inconceivable that without intending to I love some of my friends, and one day i realize i love one of them a little more than I should for a friend. At the point of realization, it's too late, you love them. You can't simply decide to un-love them. It's a feeling. I can certainly decide I don't intend to act on it, or put myself into any kind of compromising situation, and eventually I will likely not love them in the same way anymore. The alternative is to become a hermit and never love anyone or anything. Maybe my opinion is based primarily on the idea that I don't think love is necessarily this magic rainbow between 2 people that shall never be tainted. I agree that there is a thin line, but I also think that too many people avoid the confronting how much they "like" someone so that they continue to rationalize how much time they are spending with that other person. For example, I have a co-worker who spends a significant amount of time with another co-worker of mine. this co-worker (who is a guy and married) is always in my other co-workers (she is female and divorced) office and they often spend hours talking about his wife and his marriage. When they aren't talking about the issues in his marriage then they are flirting (they also discuss their kids, but I don't think there is anything wrong with that). The situation has been commented upon by other co-workers about how much they "like" each other. And yet, the male co-worker continues this emotionally intimate relationship because they are just friends. And I don't think that type of situation is unusual. I'd bet that a lot of affairs start that way.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2014 13:12:21 GMT -5
::And I don't think that type of situation is unusual. I'd bet that a lot of affairs start that way. ::
Probably yes, what's the solution though? Never be emotionally intimate in a friendship? Would you think anything was wrong if these were 2 women?
My original proposition was not about affairs though, it was that being "in love" with someone but never acting on those feelings is fine and doesn't make your spouse a terrible person whom you shouldn't trust. Be friends, just don't be really good friends and have a relationship that matters, because then maybe you'll fall in love? That's one way to avoid having it happen, but what's the purpose of having friends if they can't be meaningful friendships that are fun and htat you're invested in? It wasn't even about whether you act on it or not, it was about it not being ok to even FEEL that way ever, even if you took no actions that were inappropriate in the least.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 13:22:16 GMT -5
My original proposition was not about affairs though, it was that being "in love" with someone but never acting on those feelings is fine and doesn't make your spouse a terrible person whom you shouldn't trust.
I agree with that, with a caveat: If my husband thinks he's in love with someone, part of "never acting on those feelings" is staying away from her when practical, not seeking opportunities to be alone, etc. Because that to me is inviting trouble PLUS being very disrespectful to your spouse.
I don't think you're being honorable if you're in love with a "friend" and you seek out every possible opportunity to be together, eat lunch every day, IM or text all day long, etc. and then rationalize that you're "not acting on the feelings."
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Aug 20, 2014 13:24:06 GMT -5
::And I don't think that type of situation is unusual. I'd bet that a lot of affairs start that way. :: Probably yes, what's the solution though? Never be emotionally intimate in a friendship? Would you think anything was wrong if these were 2 women? My original proposition was not about affairs though, it was that being "in love" with someone but never acting on those feelings is fine and doesn't make your spouse a terrible person whom you shouldn't trust. Be friends, just don't be really good friends and have a relationship that matters, because then maybe you'll fall in love? That's one way to avoid having it happen, but what's the purpose of having friends if they can't be meaningful friendships that are fun and htat you're invested in? It wasn't even about whether you act on it or not, it was about it not being ok to even FEEL that way ever, even if you took no actions that were inappropriate in the least. But, in my mind you should be sharing intimate thoughts with your friends that you don't with your spouse. And I think most of us know when we are doing that. Also I think when other people start questioning your relationship with another person, that it's time that you take a step back. I do think your feelings are within your control. I do think that you can nip things in the bud. I don't think that means you can't have friends and other good relationships, I just think it means you can't have other friends with the same level of emotional intimacy as your spouse.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 13:26:17 GMT -5
A disclaimer: DH and I really don't have that many friends. The few we do have are all female but they're more my friends than his and I see them maybe once a month. We just don't have time or emotional energy for a lot of people besides each other and our family.
I can kind of see how a more social couple with different groups of friends might be able to justify spending time with casual friends on a regular basis, especially if they don't have kids. In my specific relationship it would be VERY weird if one of us started (for example) having regular Sunday coffee dates with one specific person.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 20, 2014 13:30:20 GMT -5
::But, in my mind you should be sharing intimate thoughts with your friends that you don't with your spouse. ::
1. Who says these aren't things also being shared with your spouse. 2. Sometimes you just need to vent. 3. Sometimes you need to talk about your spouse because you need advice. It does me no good to ask my spouse if I'm really in the wrong in an argument we're having.
::Also I think when other people start questioning your relationship with another person, that it's time that you take a step back. ::
I understand the logic. I think other people are idiots and I typically don't let them affect my decision making. People love to gossip and sensationalize things (particularly when it's a man and a woman, even when they would say nothing of 2 women doing it, and probably think it's a great friendship).
::I do think your feelings are within your control.::
You do? I disagree with this 100%. I think your actions are within your control, your feelings possibly a bit but much less so.
::I just think it means you can't have other friends with the same level of emotional intimacy as your spouse.::
Agree. But I also tell my wife things I'd never tell anyone else. I could be VERY emotionally intimate with someone without getting to the same level my wife and I were on. Heck I could be carrying on a full blown physical and emotional affair without even approaching the level of intimacy my wife and I have. I could do taht without approaching the emotional intimacy I have with many friends even.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 20, 2014 13:45:17 GMT -5
I have friends that fly across the country to visit me, and I to them (Before Kids!). People have asked if I was a lesbian due to seeing me hanging out with a female friend- I doubt that will make me take a step back. If my husband ever left me I could move in with them. Not a problem.
The ONLY person who gets to question my relationships with other people is my husband, and ALL he gets to do is question- he doesn't get to decide, and if I think he's being an ass I will feel free to ignore his question, but I would not hide my behavior from him- if I am not ashamed of my actions I will not hide them to avoid conflict.
My spouse is my best friend, and I do share things with him I would not share with anyone else, and there is nothing I would share with other people that I do not share with him. I barely discuss any issues I might have with him with anyone else, and if I do, I let him know. I also know not everyone has the same kind of spousal relationship I do- some people do spend more one on one time with friends. Some people gossip and complain up and down about their spouses to their buddies.
I just think it should be an equal sin to do it with someone of the same gender or different gender. If it's OK to do it with a woman, I should be fine doing it with a man. This includes whatever level of emotional or physical intimacy with a non-spouse is OK in a relationship. It shouldn't be forbidden for one gender and OK for another. (Unless my husband has some fantasy I'm fulfilling for him that involves me with another person that extends only to one gender, I guess.)
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Aug 20, 2014 15:41:03 GMT -5
If your SO is using porn instead of being intimate with you, that is a problem. My DH and I use to have no problem with porn. But after DS was born and our intimacy went way down, it became very hurtful to find out that he was rejecting having sex with me (which he did turn me down several times) but then jacking off watching internet porn. That was a problem and I think most people would have a problem with that. Fair enough. I think if someone is rejecting real life sex in favor of using the imagined world of porn, that is a symptom of a porn addiction problem. JMO.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 15:44:23 GMT -5
This is an interesting discussion to me because when I first started dating DH I was still pretty good friends with my ex prior to him (short but intense romance, split on good terms, year-plus foundation of platonic friendship prior to dating). Since we live 3,000 miles apart I actually haven't seen him since he took me to the airport (he was supposed to attend our wedding but had to back out at the last minute due to a family emergency).
I used to talk to him by phone fairly regularly, maybe once a month. It tapered off on its own but I did ask DH (then DBF) if he had a problem with me talking to him. He said no. I am not sure how it would have been if we'd lived in the same town because I would have wanted (at least initially) to keep hanging out with him on a regular basis.
I feel like part of the reason we stopped talking was because I married and had a kid with DH. It was awkward for both of us when I talked about DH and my ex could sense our relationship becoming more serious. I don't think it necessarily always has to be like that between exes, but for us it was.
Had we stayed friends, I think it *could* have worked if we'd had a lot of boundaries, i.e. hanging out with him could never interfere with family time, I wouldn't talk about my and DH's problems with him, that kind of thing.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 20, 2014 17:06:49 GMT -5
::And I don't think that type of situation is unusual. I'd bet that a lot of affairs start that way. :: Probably yes, what's the solution though? Never be emotionally intimate in a friendship? Would you think anything was wrong if these were 2 women? My original proposition was not about affairs though, it was that being "in love" with someone but never acting on those feelings is fine and doesn't make your spouse a terrible person whom you shouldn't trust. Be friends, just don't be really good friends and have a relationship that matters, because then maybe you'll fall in love? That's one way to avoid having it happen, but what's the purpose of having friends if they can't be meaningful friendships that are fun and htat you're invested in? It wasn't even about whether you act on it or not, it was about it not being ok to even FEEL that way ever, even if you took no actions that were inappropriate in the least. My original post about falling in love with someone else... I meant reciprocated. Essentially carrying on a "romantic" or "loving" relationship with someone minus the sex. Emotionally cheating. Someone having a one sided love affair isn't really that much of a threat in my mind. Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 20, 2014 17:37:07 GMT -5
Someone having a one sided love affair isn't really that much of a threat in my mind.
Your partner constantly and romantically fantasizing about someone who isn't an unavailable movie star but an actual part of his/her life wouldn't bother you?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Aug 20, 2014 18:03:48 GMT -5
I'm not that great looking, I figure she's probably imagining somebody else while we're doing it. If not it just makes me feel a little sad for her.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 20, 2014 18:23:47 GMT -5
Someone having a one sided love affair isn't really that much of a threat in my mind.
Your partner constantly and romantically fantasizing about someone who isn't an unavailable movie star but an actual part of his/her life wouldn't bother you? He can fantasize all he wants. It wouldn't bother me nearly as much as some reciprocated emotional love his has going on with someone else. I don't see how it is much different than fantasizing about a movie stars, both are one sided. Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 20, 2014 19:12:25 GMT -5
Maybe? I have no idea. I would hope that my husband would realize the inappropriateness of his feelings and put the kabash on it. But I said, I don't see it as as much of a threat as a reciprocated love.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 20, 2014 19:30:39 GMT -5
He can fantasize all he wants. It wouldn't bother me nearly as much as some reciprocated emotional love his has going on with someone else. I don't see how it is much different than fantasizing about a movie stars, both are one sided. What happens if your H can't get it up because he's used to fantasy only? Or, what about if he doesn't achieve orgasm with YOU because he's trained himself to only achieve orgasm when he's fantasizing. I have to say, I've been pretty humiliated when my DH couldn't orgasm during some specific acts because of all his fantasy. We're talking like spending an hour trying to get him to orgasm. Or even better, having a DH that wasn't interested in sex with me, preferring fantasy, and then when we would do it once every two months, he couldn't achieve orgasm. I thought there was something wrong with me. Turns out, it was the addiction rearing it's ugly head, so to speak.. My point is, fantasy is fine up to a point. Cross that point, and well, it's no longer cool if you are interested in somewhat of a sex life.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 20, 2014 19:45:09 GMT -5
He can fantasize all he wants. It wouldn't bother me nearly as much as some reciprocated emotional love his has going on with someone else. I don't see how it is much different than fantasizing about a movie stars, both are one sided. What happens if your H can't get it up because he's used to fantasy only? Or, what about if he doesn't achieve orgasm with YOU because he's trained himself to only achieve orgasm when he's fantasizing. I have to say, I've been pretty humiliated when my DH couldn't orgasm during some specific acts because of all his fantasy. We're talking like spending an hour trying to get him to orgasm. Or even better, having a DH that wasn't interested in sex with me, preferring fantasy, and then when we would do it once every two months, he couldn't achieve orgasm. I thought there was something wrong with me. Turns out, it was the addiction rearing it's ugly head, so to speak.. My point is, fantasy is fine up to a point. Cross that point, and well, it's no longer cool if you are interested in somewhat of a sex life. That is a whole different issue than what i'm talking about. Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards
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