quince
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Post by quince on Aug 18, 2014 13:44:57 GMT -5
Cheating in a game is breaking the rules of the game...cheating in a relationship is breaking the rules of the relationship.
If the rules are stupid, I probably won't think less of the person for cheating, but might think less of them for playing the game in the first place.
I am very, very against the idea that interactions between members of the opposite sex are the only ones to be suspect. If we're talking cheating in a way that has to do with sexual fidelity, only actions that actually have to do with engaging in sexual activity should be considered cheating- NOT fishing, for instance. If you could do it with a minor and not be arrested, you should be golden. Porn would count, masturbation would count (But that is an example of a stupid rule...) BJ's would count.
If we're talking about cheating as hiding shit from your partner, doing things you've agreed not to, and being generally a bad person to be in a relationship with, that's easier and more encompassing, and includes fishing, sex, hugging, spending joint funds, running up debt, drinking, playing video games, and eating dessert.
For weltschmerz, if that fishing trip is cheating, a fishing trip with a dude that the wife/gf hated should ALSO be cheating. Having reproductively compatible genitals shouldn't be the standard that makes something "cheating."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 13:51:09 GMT -5
I don't consider weltz's friend paranoid considering the guy is going fishing with weltz behind her back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 13:52:30 GMT -5
I really like that.
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Peace Of Mind
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[font color="#8f2520"]~ Drinks Well With Others ~[/font]
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Aug 18, 2014 13:56:52 GMT -5
Sex talk is cheating? Holy cow! I've cheated with almost all of you here! But DH approves of this message and I show him the good ones. And I think Bill and Monica were cheating. You're definition of sex talk must be stricter than mine. I've never seen you get graphic or say you wanted to perform certain acts on individuals here.Sends Later a PM.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 13:58:57 GMT -5
Peace Of Mind I don't think Mrs. Archie would like you doing that to him, just sayin
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 18, 2014 14:26:09 GMT -5
I have an ex that I go fishing with once or twice a year. There are no romantic feelings left, and we're just good friends. His new woman hates fishing and she hates me (she perceives me as a threat), so he tells her he's going fishing, but not who with. If she found out, she'd be livid. I don't consider this cheating. Do you? While I think the other woman sounds a bit... more than a bit really.... but a bit insecure and nut, yes I would say lying about who he is going fishing with is a type of cheating. I also think there are differnt levels of cheating and some may be more revocable than others. I also don't see cheating just as a man-woman/ woman-man thing. Never in a million years would I ever think my husband would be romantically involved with another man....so I only see cheating as a man/woman thing.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 18, 2014 14:28:55 GMT -5
His new woman hates fishing and she hates me (she perceives me as a threat), so he tells her he's going fishing, but not who with. If she found out, she'd be livid.
I don't consider this cheating.
Do you?
I don't know if I categorize it as "cheating" in my book but if he actually cares about this woman then I would consider it extremely disrespectful that he continues to hang out with you despite her request. Do I personally think it's a paranoid, yes but then he's not in a relationship with me. He's in a relationship with her and if it's one of her deal breakers he should respect that. Also why is he sticking around if fishing/you are that important to him that he feels it's worth lying to his girlfriend? Wouldn't it be easier to pick a woman who isn't unhappy with it? He's hoping against hope that the paranoia, insecurity and clinginess will stop. It won't. She doesn't even want him seeing his male friends because they're a "bad influence."
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 18, 2014 14:40:59 GMT -5
He's hoping against hope that the paranoia, insecurity and clinginess will stop
Good luck with that. Especially if she finds out he's been lying all this time about hanging out with you, it may move into Fatal Attraction land.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 18, 2014 14:55:55 GMT -5
I could go fishing with a minor.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 18, 2014 14:57:54 GMT -5
He's hoping against hope that the paranoia, insecurity and clinginess will stopGood luck with that. Especially if she finds out he's been lying all this time about hanging out with you, it may move into Fatal Attraction land. Catching a few trout twice last year and once this year isn't exactly "hanging out". As long as she doesn't boil Sushi the Siamese, I'm good.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 15:03:41 GMT -5
I could go fishing with a minor. LOL I didn't say he was cheating, but with the lying she isn't paranoid. He is up to no good.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 18, 2014 15:17:16 GMT -5
Hard to say where the line is.
I've heard some people talk about emotional infidelity. But it's kind of a gray area.
I guess I agree with the OP's friend that whatever it involves, when it gets to the point you feel you need to hide it, you're definitely in cheating territory.
I would consider the intent behind whatever action rather than the action itself. Hugging could be something done by friends, or lovers, just depends on how the parties view it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 18, 2014 15:34:21 GMT -5
He's hoping against hope that the paranoia, insecurity and clinginess will stopGood luck with that. Especially if she finds out he's been lying all this time about hanging out with you, it may move into Fatal Attraction land. Catching a few trout twice last year and once this year isn't exactly "hanging out". As long as she doesn't boil Sushi the Siamese, I'm good.
Whether it is technically cheatingnot, it is definitely dishonest Eta to correct my typo!
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 18, 2014 15:41:56 GMT -5
Whether it is technically honest or not, it is definitely dishontedt I agree, it is definitely dishonest and disrespectful to his SO and she obviously has a reason why she can't trust him... because he's lying to her. Or because she is a psycho, which there are plenty of, but she is his psycho, so he has to deal.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 15:59:45 GMT -5
Because they are feelings, and you can't necessarily control how you feel but you can control how you act. It might bother me, but it isn't disrespectful in any way. Do you get mad if your SO thinks someone else is physically attractive? These are all feelings. Love is a feeling. How can you be angry at someone for having normal human feelings?
I personally consider love to be a choice more than a feeling. It can be both, of course (I "feel" love for my husband and child, etc.) but on a daily basis it's more about what you do. Even when Babybird is driving me up the wall and I really don't feel like it, I still take care of her and cuddle her and play with her. That's a love choice, and to me choices are much more concrete than feelings.
So "feeling" in love with someone - okay, whatever. But what do you do with those feelings? If DH felt like he was in love with someone and went out of his way to continue seeing her (rather than choosing to stay away and avoid the relationship) I'd consider that a betrayal. When you love someone you spend time with them, and at that point he's making a choice to love someone else. That's different from a feeling you can't control.
I told my cousin only this weekend that you can't control who you fall in love with, but you can absolutely control your actions. You don't have to pursue everyone you fall in love with - a really wild concept in our instant-gratification generation, I realize.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Aug 18, 2014 15:59:49 GMT -5
Cheating involves lying, manipulating situations/information and secret behavior. And for the guys who say it isn't cheating if a woman gives them a BJ, I ask you to reverse the situation and ask that if you walked in on your wife with another man's business in her mouth... I'm pretty sure you'd consider that cheating... I think if you full reverse the scene would be her business in his mouth, but yea pretty sure that would be considered cheating too. Women don't always have to be the one giving for it to be cheating, no guys receiving.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Aug 18, 2014 16:02:24 GMT -5
While I think the other woman sounds a bit... more than a bit really.... but a bit insecure and nut, yes I would say lying about who he is going fishing with is a type of cheating. I also think there are differnt levels of cheating and some may be more revocable than others. I also don't see cheating just as a man-woman/ woman-man thing. Never in a million years would I ever think my husband would be romantically involved with another man....so I only see cheating as a man/woman thing. Sorry this made me laugh, but my point was more that a strong bro-mance or sister-hood that is held in secret, could be emotionally cheating as well, not just if they are stacking legos.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 18, 2014 16:23:26 GMT -5
I am very, very against the idea that interactions between members of the opposite sex are the only ones to be suspect. If we're talking cheating in a way that has to do with sexual fidelity, only actions that actually have to do with engaging in sexual activity should be considered cheating- NOT fishing, for instance. If you could do it with a minor and not be arrested, you should be golden. Porn would count, masturbation would count (But that is an example of a stupid rule...) BJ's would count. For 85-90% of the population, yes. For those of us who have husbands addicted to it, no, it's not a stupid rule. And, call me surprised when I discovered that our recovery from his addiction was actually nearly the same as a couple the experienced real infidelity and was looking to heal their marriage. So, for most, stupid. Not for all.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 18, 2014 16:27:47 GMT -5
I am very, very against the idea that interactions between members of the opposite sex are the only ones to be suspect. If we're talking cheating in a way that has to do with sexual fidelity, only actions that actually have to do with engaging in sexual activity should be considered cheating- NOT fishing, for instance. If you could do it with a minor and not be arrested, you should be golden. Porn would count, masturbation would count (But that is an example of a stupid rule...) BJ's would count. For 85-90% of the population, yes. For those of us who have husbands addicted to it, no, it's not a stupid rule. And, call me surprised when I discovered that our recovery from his addiction was actually nearly the same as a couple the experienced real infidelity and was looking to heal their marriage. So, for most, stupid. Not for all. I amend, then. Without prior bad behavior, it is a stupid rule. I agree if there is an existing issue, additional restrictions should apply. As I said, if my husband was unfaithful, our rules would change. Actually, we did have a problem, but not with sex- with his behavior in putting other members of his family before me. Now the rules for dealing with them are different, and in a way that are absolutely stupid without prior history.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 18, 2014 16:58:30 GMT -5
I agree, it is definitely dishonest and disrespectful to his SO and she obviously has a reason why she can't trust him... because he's lying to her. Or because she is a psycho, which there are plenty of, but she is his psycho, so he has to deal. She even had a meltdown when he went salmon-fishing in Alaska WITH HIS BROTHER! Oh well...not my problem. They'll have to work it out themselves.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Aug 18, 2014 17:49:59 GMT -5
Because they are feelings, and you can't necessarily control how you feel but you can control how you act. It might bother me, but it isn't disrespectful in any way. Do you get mad if your SO thinks someone else is physically attractive? These are all feelings. Love is a feeling. How can you be angry at someone for having normal human feelings?
I personally consider love to be a choice more than a feeling. It can be both, of course (I "feel" love for my husband and child, etc.) but on a daily basis it's more about what you do. Even when Babybird is driving me up the wall and I really don't feel like it, I still take care of her and cuddle her and play with her. That's a love choice, and to me choices are much more concrete than feelings. So "feeling" in love with someone - okay, whatever. But what do you do with those feelings? If DH felt like he was in love with someone and went out of his way to continue seeing her (rather than choosing to stay away and avoid the relationship) I'd consider that a betrayal. When you love someone you spend time with them, and at that point he's making a choice to love someone else. That's different from a feeling you can't control. I told my cousin only this weekend that you can't control who you fall in love with, but you can absolutely control your actions. You don't have to pursue everyone you fall in love with - a really wild concept in our instant-gratification generation, I realize. Morita Therapy directs one's attention receptively to what reality brings in each moment - a focus on the present, avoiding intellectualising.[4] Simple acceptance of what is, allows for active responding to what needs doing. Most therapies strive to reduce symptoms. Morita therapy, however, aims at building character to enable one to take action responsively in life regardless of symptoms, natural fears, and wishes.[5] Character is determined by behavior, by what one does. Dogmatic patterns of collapse are replaced with the flexibility to call upon courage and empowerment. Decisions become grounded in purpose rather than influenced by the fluid flow of feelings.
In Morita Therapy, character is developed by cultivating mindfulness, knowing what is controllable and what is not controllable, and seeing what is so without attachment to expectations. Knowing what one is doing, knowing what the situation is requiring, and knowing the relationship between the two are quintessential to self-validation, effective living, and personal fulfillment. Character is developed as one moves from being feeling-centered to being purpose-centered. A feeling-centered person attends to feelings to such an extent that the concern for self-protection reigns over decisions and perceptions. Given the human condition, change, pain, and pleasure are natural experiences. Indeed, emotions are a rich type of experience and a valuable source of information. Feelings are acknowledged even when what is to be done requires not acting on them. Constructive action is no longer put on hold in order to process or cope with symptoms or feelings.[6] The individual can focus on the full scope of the present moment as the guide for determining what needs to be done.
Trying to control the emotional self willfully by manipulative attempts is like trying to choose a number on a thrown die or to push back the water of the Kamo River upstream. Certainly, they end up aggravating their agony and feeling unbearable pain because of their failure in manipulating the emotions. —Shoma Morita, M.D.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morita_therapy Firebird, sounds like you are coming from the same place as Doctor Morita.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Aug 18, 2014 18:10:02 GMT -5
Oh yes the SO is always the psycho/crazy/jealous/paranoid/lazy/bitchy/ etc etc person.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Aug 18, 2014 18:12:34 GMT -5
Oh yes the SO is always the psycho/crazy/jealous/paranoid/lazy/bitchy/ etc etc person.
Not always.
I like the rule several have mentioned - it's not crazy if there's precedence (my paraphrase). I have an acquaintance on FB and she and her husband have agreed to a Facebook rule: no non-family friends of the opposite sex.
Sounds a little nuts, right? Until you realize that when they got together, she was the "other woman" and they met and began their affair in an online community.
So for them, it seems like a reasonable cautionary measure. For most people, it would be major overkill.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Aug 18, 2014 18:41:12 GMT -5
So much depends on the person/people involved, as Firebird states. There is one female in mine and C's past who I have a rule about. She and he are FB friends. She and I are not. (I wouldn't turn her down if she requested, but she hasn't and neither have I.) He does not have to tell me about her posts, but if she contacts him directly via notes or tagging him, he has to tell me about those. He does NOT have to tell me what was said or discussed, he just has to tell me it happened. Why? She is the on other person he has truly loved, and at one point in our dating, he did break up with me to be with her. We worked things out, and he made an active choice to be with me. If you asked who he loved "more", I would bet the answer, based on intensity of feelings, was her. BUT, he did make the active choice to be with me. He knows this is the one person I am slightly jealous of and has no issues with the rule. It can be years in between their direct contact, but he always tells me when it happened. (And for the record, he "chose" me 13 years ago at this point, but the rule is still in effect.) At the same time, there was a girl in his classes a couple years ago who was totally his type. I commented on it right after meeting her. He told me that she had once asked if he were in an open relationship and when he said no, told him to tell her if that ever changed. I have no rules regarding contact with her.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Aug 18, 2014 18:49:09 GMT -5
I met with my ex several times without telling my ISO, I told him I was shopping if he asked. I didn't consider it cheating because I had no interest in him physically but we had been married 17 years and divorced 2-3 at the time so still had mutual friends. He was just out of alcohol treatment and starting to rebuild his life so I would do little things to help him like taking him shopping or giving him something minor like a $7 bookcase to keep his food on. Once we went to visit mutual friends together. I never gave my ex any contract information because I didn't want him to know where I lived or worked. We didn't touch or talk about getting back together or anything I couldn't have said in front of anyone.
The reason I didn't tell ISO is we were just talking about living together and I told him I was going to see my ex at the treatment center. He said then he wasn't going to move in since I would end up back with my ex. So I saw my ex maybe a dozen times or less over a year or so then he owed me money and said not to ask because he was never going to pay me, so I said then I would never talk to him again and I never did. Telling ISO I was seeing my ex would have just upset him for no reason but I wanted to see my ex get back on his feet after I had destroyed his world leaving him. He was a violent alcoholic and not working so when I left he got DTs lost the house and everything he had spent the next couple of years in treatment and out failing to thrive without me. When I found he had been in a 90 day program and getting out I gave him his baby shoes and army discharge I took by mistake then wanted to see him get a place to live and a job and back on his feet. The treatment center put him in a room with nothing but a bed, required AA meetings to stay and gave him a minimum wage job. They also gave him a voucher to get boots and jeans so I took him to get them and bought him a cheap book case and a bag of food. He needed just a tiny bit of help and someone who knew he could do it. I didn't feel explaining it to the boyfriend would have helped my relationship and I had a right to make my own choices on seeing him, I just felt I needed to put the relationship to rest tying up lose ends. I didn't contract him for a few years then heard he had died. He had told me he had HIV after I left him but I don't know it if that killed him, it didn't make me want him at all.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 18:54:49 GMT -5
Firebird I'm pretty sure nutty was being sarcastic about the weltz thing.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 18, 2014 19:12:06 GMT -5
::So it wouldn't bother you that your SO has fallen in love with someone else, as long as they don't act on it "out of consideration"? How could that NOT bother you? It wouldn't change your feelings or respect/trust toward them? I sure wouldn't call that consideration at all on their part, just because they didn't take it further - I'd call it them showing complete disrespect for me and our relationship, and them being a douche. :: Because they are feelings, and you can't necessarily control how you feel but you can control how you act. It might bother me, but it isn't disrespectful in any way. Do you get mad if your SO thinks someone else is physically attractive? These are all feelings. Love is a feeling. How can you be angry at someone for having normal human feelings? Do you believe in love at first sight? Because that's the only way I can understand being unable to control things. I mean, you can't control how you feel but you can control how and if you get to that point. I don't believe in love at first sight and I believe there is a progressing to falling in love. And you know when you are going in that direction. If my SO started feeling something more than just platonic for another person and didn't do anything to change his situation, avoid that person, put the kabash on it... Of he recognizes that he likes someone and continues his relationship until it hits LOVE... Then I think that is pretty dammed disrespectful and completely in his control. If you believe in love at first sight... Then i've got nothing. I don't understand that concept. Sent from my Nexus 4 using proboards
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 18, 2014 19:29:09 GMT -5
Never in a million years would I ever think my husband would be romantically involved with another man....so I only see cheating as a man/woman thing. Sorry this made me laugh, but my point was more that a strong bro-mance or sister-hood that is held in secret, could be emotionally cheating as well, not just if they are stacking legos. Umm...you mean like in the down low?? I think that is more than a bromance! And no, I can't imagine my husband ever having a male friend that he didn't tell me about . Why wouldn't he tell me?
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Aug 18, 2014 20:02:17 GMT -5
LOL at Later, you get me, you really get me.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 18, 2014 20:02:37 GMT -5
I don't believe in love at first sight either. Love is far too complex and mature an emotion for that. What I DO believe, however, is that if you truly know yourself and have even decent emotional maturity and powers of observation, that you can know very quickly whether a certain person is someone who you can love. Not whether you WILL love them, but whether you CAN. By observing them and the interactions with you, comparing to what you know about yourself, and extrapolating from that? Yes, I absolutely believe that is possible.
Far too many people confuse love and lust. Many do so because they have no real idea what love is, but have heard the term so much that they believe whatever intense emotion they happen to be feeling MUST be that. Sad.
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