Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:03:18 GMT -5
Punishing her by taking away her kid makes people feel good and think that "justice" has been served. But IMO we'd be better off asking WHY and figuring out how to fix the mess that is childcare in this country, especially in poorer areas.
I hope the social worker assigned to her case is at least trying to help her find her some safe, affordable child care options that she can reasonably implement, rather than telling her "Okay, we've got your kid now, have a nice life." Because this really doesn't seem to warrant taking the kid away - especially if it was just a onetime solution, which it could have been if the regular babysitter was on vacation or something.
I don't agree that this was a reasonable solution to a childcare problem but I completely understand that she was in a tough spot and I do think less drastic solutions should be investigated before yanking the daughter from the home. She could be an excellent mother.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 16:04:42 GMT -5
"Free" or heavily subsidized daycare is not always easy to come by. In our state there is only so much funding per county and depending on what one you're in there could be a really long waiting list for daycare assistance. It's not a situation of if you qualify you get it.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:08:56 GMT -5
Personally, I don't see a huge issue with the kid sitting in McD's during Mom's shift as long as she's occupied with some quiet activity - reading, coloring, whatever. If I were the manager, I would have no problem with that as long as the kid wasn't bothering her mother during work time.
I'm sure the kid PREFERS the park, but kids aren't always going to be thrilled with the choices their parents make on their behalf.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 16:10:03 GMT -5
The girl used to sit in the restaurant on the laptop while her mom worked, so there would be no problem with her going there when she was tired of the park. Sorry, I just don't see this as an issue. It isn't the nicest solution for the kid, or the most fun, but people need to have the freedom to do what they need to do to get on.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:15:16 GMT -5
The girl used to sit in the restaurant on the laptop while her mom worked, so there would be no problem with her going there when she was tired of the park.
It's called a book. Laptops are more fun than books, I get that. But talking of "the good old days," none of us had laptops at nine years old and we all survived From the sound of it, we're talking about a 4-6 hour shift. That leaves PLENTY of hours in the day for the kid to play at a park or outside after Mom gets off work. The kid is not going to die from having to sit still and read a book for four hours.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jul 21, 2014 16:15:50 GMT -5
There's a long story in the NYT (I think) about a homeless family - with the focus on a girl named Dasani. I'll try and get the link up tomorrow but now I've got to head for home.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jul 21, 2014 16:18:31 GMT -5
I totally agree with this. I can remember first moving here and our neighbor next door (he's a nice guy but she is a wackadoodle!) asked me to keep an eye on his kids and to report their behavior to him if I didn't mind. I was home and they were at work when the kids were home from school. I was honest and told him I wasn't going to be his spy, however, I would make sure they tell him of anything serious and make sure they were safe, etc. and would only contact him in an emergency. He has two older boys from a previous marriage and wife #2 just wanted them gone and told anybody who would listen that so a few of us kind of had a soft spot for the older boys. His oldest cut his hand really bad with a knife while fishing at our pond. He came running to me about it and I cleaned the wound up, put a butterfly thingy on and bandaged his hand to control the bleeding and told him to contact his parents in case he needed stitches. Whackadoodle yelled at him for bothering me and told him never to do that again (she was at work and didn't do anything for his hand. Did I mention she worked for a Dr.?). And yet she had no problem sending them over weekly to borrow eggs, spices, flour, sugar, ask me to watch their cats for them, get their mail, etc. I got where I just avoided them all but the kids would still lock themselves out of the house and in the summer heat or bad storms I could not ignore them so would have them sit in the shade on our patio with sodas or water or I'd have them come in to watch TV and make them a snack. She finally just told me to give them the key she had me keep for them. I got so sick of dealing with her I gave her key back and in the nicest way possible said "Don't call me. I'll call you." I told the kids if they ever needed me to not hesitate and their dad said it was ok. And I guess I should have just called the cops. Oh wait - he is a cop. People now only get involved around here if kids are vandalizing or doing something they shouldn't be doing but other wise they just don't care. With people like her I can see why.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 16:21:02 GMT -5
The kid is not going to die from having to sit still and read a book for four hours
But she's not going to die spending a few hours at the park either. Since you like bringing up we survived just fine with books, we also survived just fine with parks. I think it is crazy that we think we have to have eyes on our kids at all times these days. It scares me to tell you the truth.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:32:45 GMT -5
But she's not going to die spending a few hours at the park either. Since you like bringing up we survived just fine with books, we also survived just fine with parks. I think it is crazy that we think we have to have eyes on our kids at all times these days. It scares me to tell you the truth. I never said we have to have eyes on our kids all the time. I've said that I would be comfortable leaving a nine year old at home for a few hours. I've said that if my kid was nine, I wouldn't be outside supervising her play the way I do right now with Babybird. I get that kids are capable of monitoring themselves for short periods. I get that awful things like kidnappings are unlikely. I get that parks tend to be safe. I don't think that you have to be watching your kid every single second but there's a huge difference between "Sure, Johnny, I'll drop you at the park for 45 minutes while I run to the store" and "Sure, Sabrina, you can play in the park unsupervised for six hours straight."
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 21, 2014 16:35:32 GMT -5
The girl used to sit in the restaurant on the laptop while her mom worked, so there would be no problem with her going there when she was tired of the park.
It's called a book. Laptops are more fun than books, I get that. But talking of "the good old days," none of us had laptops at nine years old and we all survived From the sound of it, we're talking about a 4-6 hour shift. That leaves PLENTY of hours in the day for the kid to play at a park or outside after Mom gets off work. The kid is not going to die from having to sit still and read a book for four hours. None of us had our moms with us at the parks back then either in the good ole days. From the time Saturday morning cartoons were over (around 9ish) until it was time for dinner, we were outside somewhere. Hell, most summer days we were dropped off at the local pool to swim for hours and there wasn't a parent around. We survived too.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:38:59 GMT -5
I think these discussions get so out of hand because people make it so binary. If someone objects to leaving a kid unsupervised at a park for six hours, some people think that means you would never leave your kid alone for five minutes under any circumstances, even at 16.
And if you think it's reasonable to leave a kid alone for a few hours, then some people call you a bad parent who deserves to be arrested and have your kid taken away.
I think both extremes are ridiculous and unhelpful. Just because I don't agree with what this mother did doesn't mean I can't appreciate the difficulty of her situation, and it also doesn't mean that I don't believe kids should ever be left alone.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:40:26 GMT -5
I don't have to be glued to my kids 24/7 and I let them go out around the neighborhood on bikes, etc. but that's different from dropping them off in a public setting without adult supervision and just leaving.
Exactly. There's a huge difference between carefully chosen, limited periods of self-supervision and letting kids be their own babysitters with no backup for entire days.
My niece is ten and her mom has no problem letting her roam the neighborhood or play outside alone. Neither would I - their neighborhood is very safe and they know all their neighbors within a half mile radius. But if I were her mom, I wouldn't take her to a park to play alone while I went to work. My niece is a good kid but I can easily imagine her getting into some bad trouble with no supervision whatsoever over a long period of time.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 16:56:25 GMT -5
How far away was this park, anyway? If she lives in downtown Detroit and it was ten blocks from the McD's, that's a little different than if she lives in suburbia and the park was two blocks from the McD's.
Also, what time was her shift? If she was getting off at noon, that's a different story than if she was getting off at 10pm.
There are certainly factors that would make it more or less safe for her to leave her kid in the park. But unless she could see the park from the window of her work, I don't think that it was an appropriate solution to not having child care during the summer. That's what I think.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 17:08:02 GMT -5
How far away was this park, anyway? If she lives in downtown Detroit and it was ten blocks from the McD's, that's a little different than if she lives in suburbia and the park was two blocks from the McD's. Also, what time was her shift? If she was getting off at noon, that's a different story than if she was getting off at 10pm. There are certainly factors that would make it more or less safe for her to leave her kid in the park. But unless she could see the park from the window of her work, I don't think that it was an appropriate solution to not having child care during the summer. That's what I think. Well when I searched I found another article that said the kid came back to McD's for lunch, so that puts the park close by and means mom was working during the lunch shift.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 17:16:07 GMT -5
If you click on the Slate article, there's a link below to another article offering "10 telltale signs that you might be a helicopter parent": www.education.com/slideshow/helicopter-parenting/Speaking as someone who apparently falls on the crazy overprotective side of this debate, I personally have no problem letting Babybird go to daycare or work out her own age-appropriate problems. I don't freak if she puts a piece of chalk in her mouth. I encourage her independence, but I also tell her no on a regular basis. In other words, I exhibit exactly zero "telltale signs" of helicopter parenting. I think what bugs me the most about these conversations is that they devolve into tirades against those "damn helicopter parents." Reading the original Slate article just reinforced my feelings on this. Not feeling comfortable with leaving your kid in a park during a work shift is hardly evidence of being a helicopter parent. Making sure your kid has responsible supervision while you're at work is not "hovering."
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 21, 2014 17:23:22 GMT -5
How you raise your own child is your own business even if you are a helicopter parent. It's when those parents feel they have the right to judge others that I get annoyed.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 17:30:11 GMT -5
How you raise your own child is your own business even if you are a helicopter parent. It's when those parents feel they have the right to judge others that I get annoyed.
Well, in that sense it's like the "leaving your kids in the car" debate. If you see a child and feel they're in danger, then as a bystander you should feel compelled to step in.
I could see the conversation between the girl and the bystander going like this:
Bystander: I notice you've been playing here the last few days alone. Where's your mom? Girl: She's at work. Bystander: Where? Girl: McDonalds over on South Street, [10 blocks from here]. Bystander: Do you stay here by yourself every day while she works? Girl: Yeah. Bystander: *looking around nervously at the bad neighborhood and the gang kids smoking on the corner*
If I were [Bystander], I don't think I'd feel comfortable just shrugging and walking away at that point. Again, like in the car thread, I don't think I'd immediately call the cops but I would feel compelled to act in some way if the neighborhood wasn't the best and the girl had clearly told me she was on her own for hours every day.
And AGAIN as some were saying in the car thread, it's not about "judging" the parents. That has nothing to do with it. It's about not walking away from a minor who could be in serious trouble.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 21, 2014 18:00:27 GMT -5
x 100000 I've said it before, but I don't know how anyone affords decent childcare. I'm paying $975/mo for one kid in a LCOLA. And every day I count my lucky stars that I'm able to afford a great place. I can't imagine going to work every day and not feeling 100% comfortable that DD is in a place where she is safe and well-taken-care-of. Over the past year, there have been a handful of home daycare deaths in the city where I work. In one case, the daycare provider had been responsible for a previous child death, had dissolved her daycare "agency," and then started a new one. But if you make $320/week and a good daycare costs $200/week (which it does around here), what are you supposed to do?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 18:03:43 GMT -5
9 years old is too young to be left unsupervised for hours in a public park.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Jul 21, 2014 18:32:33 GMT -5
But if you make $320/week and a good daycare costs $200/week (which it does around here), what are you supposed to do?
Stay home and eat Bonbons and crab legs with all the money you make on food stamps
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jul 21, 2014 18:43:21 GMT -5
9 years old is too young to be left unsupervised for hours in a public park. Exactly! Which is what I said a few days ago - it only takes seconds for a child to get injured.
It also takes only seconds for a child to get snatched/abducted - and then all kinds of horror can happen to them - including being killed (after the dirty deed is done). A kid can disappear in a heartbeat - and there's evil people/pedophiles out there just watching & waiting for an opportunity such as this to grab a child.
So the kid had a cell phone - it would be of no use in a situation like that. The kid would be already gone for who knows how long before the McD Mom even realized it.
Since the park was near a McD's then you have to assume this park wasn't on a quiet, peaceful street somewhere in suburbia - A MCD's would be located in a high-traffic area.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 21, 2014 20:24:54 GMT -5
I grew up really poor and no amount of explaining it will help somebody who's never been there understand. People always think it's easy to find affordable, reliable childcare for whatever random hours you need it.
I don't see this scenario as a big deal. I imagine they both arrived at McDonalds together, after an hour or two, daughter asks Mom if she can play at the park a few blocks away. Mom says okay, but be back here before my shift is over and call me if you have any problems. She's 9, not 2.
Like another poster, I also helped my 12 year old sister with her paper route at 9. She would give me a cut if she was too tired to get up at 4:30- which was at least 4 out of 7 days. My divorced mom was mentally ill and depressed. I was on my own all day if there was no school. I wasn't allowed to watch t.v. Bored, I would walk 2 miles to the bus stop, catch the city bus downtown and hang out at the mall. Again, I was 9. She never knew and nobody reported us to the police.
I find these situations today depressing. As a parent, I'm mostly motivated to follow the helicopter parenting approach because I'm scared to death of being reported for something that might have a very small risk.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:41:51 GMT -5
The other piece of this is that "society" is willing to pay for her to be put into foster care when providing day care while mom is at work would both solve the problem and be cheaper.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Jul 21, 2014 20:52:43 GMT -5
Just looked at the YMCA camp daycare near me (MCOL). They offer 10 one week sessions from 7:00AM-6:00PM for $220/week per kid. That still leaves 2 weeks before school starts and let's not forget that McDonalds is open more than just 7am-6pm M-F. No chance is a McDonald's wage going to stretch enough to pay $953/month.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 21, 2014 20:57:00 GMT -5
From the national highway commission "In the United States, an average of 6 children 0-14 years old were killed and 694 were injured every day in motor vehicle crashes during 2003."
If you do a quick google search on number of children kidnapped per year (what we think of as typical..NOT parental kidnapping, false alarm, kids missing for one hour, runaways, etc), the best I can find is 115. For the whole year.
Another quick search on gun safety quoting a study how many kids are injured/killed from gun shot wounds in the US-published in pediatrics (I would think a respected journal) : The new study noted that of the 9,000 deaths of children each year, 453 of those occurred among children in the hospital who were admitted for gunshot wounds.
So, statistically, more kids die in car accidents and from gun shot wounds. Where's the pitch forks for cars and guns? If cars and guns are FAR more risky than a child getting kidnapped, why aren't we as a society more proactive about preventing these injuries? Why aren't folks here upset when they hear that other parents are driving their kids around, or live near or with someone that has access to guns?
I don't get the cherry picking of the risks that we face in our daily life. I really, really don't.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Jul 22, 2014 1:14:19 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with this too. I remember when I was 8-13 or so, my cousins and I would hang out at my grandpa's house during summer vacation. We were allowed to walk to the strip mall where his barber shop was (about half a mile away, all sidewalks) but not to cross the highway. The ONE time we crossed the highway, my cousins' grandma's neighbor saw us in the median, called their grandma, who called my aunt, who called my mom, and we all got grounded. (Then we discovered that we could cross the highway by going through one of those giant concrete drainage culverts, but that's another thread). Now, I'm assuming grandma's neighbor would have called the police instead. I can think of a few reasons why people don't call parents anymore. A lot of the parents won't take responsibility and will go off on the person letting them know there is a problem, instead of their child who is misbehaving. This leads people who would previously call the parents (the bystanders) to call the police instead (Why deal with the potential crazy parent yelling at me and telling me to mind my own business when the police can just deal with it?). Look at what teachers deal with in school. When I was a kid, if a teacher or neighbor told my parents something I did wrong, I was going to have a big problem when I got home. Nowadays, a lot of the parents go off on the teacher about how the teacher is evil/stupid/racist/sexist/etc and not how little Mary or Little Johnny's behavior is a problem. Anything wrong is always "someone else's fault" or "could have been worse". Hell, look at the student loan thread. That turned into "well, tax breaks for having children or a mortgage are worse". And this is with intelligent, mature people. Imagine how it goes when you mix the general public and talking about someone's kids into the mix. You get all kinds of attitude and it isn't worth dealing with it, if you are the bystander...
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 22, 2014 6:03:47 GMT -5
Where's dad?
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 22, 2014 7:28:39 GMT -5
I try to strike a balance between protective my kids and letting them explore. But honestly, I can not imagine sending a kid to a park for that many hours. I just can't imagine what a 9 yr old would do there for that long. That being said, I completely agree with whoever said ( minnesotapaintlady) that taking the kid and arresting the mother doesn't fix the problem. I am curious, however - I thought that women who make low wages get day care subsidize - don't they?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 22, 2014 7:29:18 GMT -5
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Jul 22, 2014 7:34:57 GMT -5
Well, it seems Dad disappears and then mom is put in a bad position and does something that others don't agree with and Mom is the one burned at the stake.
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