souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 7, 2014 14:10:14 GMT -5
On the topic of divorce CA has some archaic laws from what I understand, mind you it's secondhand information. Someone who used to be one of my good friends (not close to anymore) cheated with a married woman while he too was married. Luckily her now ex-husband filed for divorce before they were married 10 years as from what I was told if they were married 10 years it could be lifetime alimony and instead he's paying for 5 years. Have to love a no fault state. I know someone who is kind of the lowest of the low - doesn't work anymore because she thinks she's above it, blows through money when she does get it like it's nothing and keeps going after her ex for more. She was in for a real rude awakening when he lost his job/retired because her alimony ended up going down quite a bit. I wouldn't put myself at the mercy of someone else and their earnings.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2014 14:21:25 GMT -5
I'm in FL and one of my very close friends has been going through a divorce here, so I've gotten a very close look at the process. Like Naggie, my friend has been married a long time (23 years this year), has not worked outside the home for about 16 years and has some physical disabilities. Her dyslexia is so severe she can barely read, which also means her writing skills are abysmal, even though she's very intelligent. She has an associate's degree in preschool teaching and was a preschool teacher for 4 or 5 years prior to being a SAHM. Preschool teachers in this area make minimum wage, even those with degrees. Because of the dyslexia, it's pretty tough for her to get more training or education, plus you can only imagine what her job applications or writing samples look like - Yikes. Her STBX earns anywhere from $150k - $180k a year.
So my friend is turning 50 this year, hasn't worked in 16 years, has only skills that pay minimum wage and very few prospects for getting any more formal education/degrees. She's not getting lifetime alimony. She is getting alimony for 10 years and it's not nearly the amount she thought it would be. The judge told her to figure it out and get a job.
Every situation is different, but wanted to illustrate that even with a long Florida marriage, disabilities and large disparity in earning potential, lifetime alimony is not a given.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 7, 2014 14:24:16 GMT -5
Naggie....Naggie....Naggie....I'm stymied right now. While I haven't posted much in your threads, I have been following them, hoping there was a point where I could post and offer you some advice from someone who has been there.
I have been following your threads for some time and this is what I'm seeing:
1. You moved out. Told everyone here that your husband paid for the move and, in fact, co-signed your lease. Now you are saying your mother foot the bill for the move.
2. You've said your husband has plenty of money. Now you say you two are in BK.
3. You said you had an attorney and, in fact, responded to a post asking why you aren't talking to an attorney about these things with "I don't intend to use 'her' as a sounding board." Now you say you don't have an attorney.
4. You specifically told me, when I asked if you had a job yet that you started one in 3 weeks. I have seen no mention of your job.
I hope you can understand why some people are confused and maybe even frustrated. They are trying very hard to give you sound advice on your situation, but when that situation changes all the time, it's a bit maddening. I'm certainly not accusing you of lying. Some people (like me) have a difficult time puting their thoughts down on paper and posts don't always say to others what they said in my head. I'm just pointing out that there are inconsistencies. If people are asking for clarification, it's because being clear is necessary if they are to give advice.
If you want a thread where everyone just says, "Poor Naggie...lets have a group hug...and you just sit where you are and wait till all those promised dollars come rolling in...and everything will be fine." just say so. Otherwise, people here are, for the most part, caring and concerned individuals who hope they can give others the benefit of their experience. And they know dang well that joining you in your pity party isn't going to help you one little bit.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 7, 2014 15:11:33 GMT -5
I don't know the circumstances of Naggie and husband's BK, however BK is not about the income it is about the disparity between what is owed and what can reasonably be repaid. Ch. 13 just means a certain amount of what is owed will be paid over a 5 year span. That's it.
If it had only to do with income, big corporations in theory couldn't go bankrupt until they made almost nothing. Trump has had many bankruptcies. Does anyone really believe he had low income each and every time?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 7, 2014 15:17:44 GMT -5
I fully admit to not knowing one think about BK, Optimist. So they don't ask for your income when you fill out the papers to file?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 7, 2014 15:26:46 GMT -5
They do, however, BK is more about your debts in relation to what you can pay than any specific income. Although, to do a Ch.7 you have to have fairly low income. Ch. 13 is usually what happens if your income is higher than that.
I agree there are some worrying trends and apparent flip flops on positions, but the high income coupled with Ch.13 is not one of them. I know of at least a couple high earning individuals that were granted a BK. One started a business with partners and it never quite made the money it needed to, to be self-sustaining.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 7, 2014 15:27:57 GMT -5
I fully admit to not knowing one think about BK, Optimist. So they don't ask for your income when you fill out the papers to file? They document and verify your income. For a chapter 13 they basically decide that you can't pay your debts in full, but they determine the amount you can afford to pay each month and you do that for 3 or 5 years as determined by the judge. When properties were underwater many people filed a chapter 13 because depending on the value of the home vs what was owed on the first and 2nd mortgages you could potentially have the 2nd mortgage removed and keep the house. I think this is what naggie did, but I could be wrong. Typically the courts aren't going to re -verify income during the years your making your payments so if her dh's income had tanked when they filed but he's still at the same job now just making more money nothing is done. I don't know for certain but I suspect that the breadwinner signing up for a significant alimony payment is a change of circumstance that the bk court would have to approve. They aren't going to say they can't get a divorce though and would (I think at least) factor in the increased expenses they now face so his increased income may not make a lick of difference.in how much he pays on the bk each month. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 7, 2014 15:31:33 GMT -5
Thanks, you guys. I know nothing about BK. But to me, having plenty of money means you can pay what you owe. Otherwise, to me, there wouldn't be "plenty of money". I was obviously wrong. Appreciate the info.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 15:40:42 GMT -5
Sorry. I am frustrated. I aplogize. In good news he took the limit thing out.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 15:43:22 GMT -5
I have copied all the good info. We just talked about it. It's getting better. I feel more in control.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 7, 2014 15:43:36 GMT -5
What limit thing?
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 15:44:41 GMT -5
You do realize chap 13 in our case goes on for 60 months and we filed 29 months ago. Its not static. Income is not static.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 15:45:19 GMT -5
The 50k thing. I cant remember what he called it.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 15:45:45 GMT -5
And he brought coffee. Lol.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Jul 7, 2014 15:50:10 GMT -5
Sorry, I canna no play at your house no more.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 18:02:10 GMT -5
Huh?? Anyway rae has it correct.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:09:23 GMT -5
Nutty, I generally don't post on your threads. But, let me tell you that my ex went from "take everything I have" to "I will cut off the gas, electricity and water because I can, and FORCE you (and our 3 kids aged 6, 4 and 1 mo) out because I can afford the bills and you can't" in just 1-2 months.
Nutty, I'm TOTALLY with singlemominMD on this. You can't afford NOT to have a lawyer. I don't know if you have the beg, borrow or steal to pay for one, but you NEED a lawyer.
If you choose to live in LaLaLand where your ex will continue to be oh-so-kind-to-you, and give you alimony / part of his pension for 23 years, LOLOLOLOL! He obviously hasn't met your replacement yet. Personally I think he probably HAS, but he's is not ready to admit it yet.
Like it or not, you are now in adverserial relationship with your ex, ie, your own best interets do NOT coincide with his. So you need to look after your own arse.
If you choose not to, obviously, nobody can force you to. But more fool you.
Good luck. Seems to me that the way you are proceeding (or not), you'll be needing it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:51:11 GMT -5
When you say he has gotten rid of the $50,000 limit, it sounds like you two are still trying to DIY.
If that's what you want to do and feel qualified, go for it. That is what my ex and I did. Our kids were grown, I had a marketable skill (teaching and a MA) but low-paying job, etc. I needed help moving out because all of our money was family money. But once I moved out, we separated our finances. I found a second low-paying job (retail at Macy's) a month before moving out. I was probably one catastrophe away from having to go back, but I made it.
However, I don't think you are willing to do that. So you need to quit making off-the-table deals with your soon-to-be-ex and find a lawyer who will work with you. If you can't afford the lawyer who wants a $1700 retainer, I am not sure how you plan to retain a lawyer that wants a $4500 retainer. Do you have a plan for that?
Anyway, get out of the house and get a job even if you have to walk to it. If you only get paid minimum wage, you strengthen your need for spousal support.
I'm not being mean, Nutty, but every adult should be able to support him- or herself unless there is a real disability. If you are living in the same complex as your daughter, who is a college student, you have taken step 1. It has to be cheap housing.
Take step 2 and get a job. My job at Macy's actually gave me some validation that I truly needed. I made Sales Star of the Month 17 times out of the 24 months that I worked there. Stupid, but I needed that. It is easy for your self-esteem to hit zero.
Good luck! I honestly wish you only the best.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 7, 2014 21:28:48 GMT -5
Nutty, I generally don't post on your threads. But, let me tell you that my ex went from "take everything I have" to "I will cut off the gas, electricity and water because I can, and FORCE you (and our 3 kids aged 6, 4 and 1 mo) out because I can afford the bills and you can't" in just 1-2 months. Oh, when I was telling the story of my close friend and her divorce in FL, I forgot that part. When she first discovered he was cheating, he was embarrassed and promised her a very generous divorce deal. He told her she could keep the house, he'd pay her a large alimony until retirement, she could pick whichever of their assets she wanted, yadda, yadda, yadda. That was for the first 6-12 months. After that, as he became less ashamed, that generosity faded very quickly. By the time it came to negotiate for the divorce and then agree, it was a whole new ballgame and he fought everything.
You are in the "honeymoon" phase of the divorce. If he's still feeling guilty and generous, you need to do whatever it takes to get a lawyer quickly. If you do this fast enough, you can get DH to agree and sign off while he's still in that guilty and generous phase. It will not last, so you have a very short window here to make your best deal without extensive fighting and the gamble that even with extensive legal battles you might not do well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 21:39:23 GMT -5
Nutty, I generally don't post on your threads. But, let me tell you that my ex went from "take everything I have" to "I will cut off the gas, electricity and water because I can, and FORCE you (and our 3 kids aged 6, 4 and 1 mo) out because I can afford the bills and you can't" in just 1-2 months. Oh, when I was telling the story of my close friend and her divorce in FL, I forgot that part. When she first discovered he was cheating, he was embarrassed and promised her a very generous divorce deal. He told her she could keep the house, he'd pay her a large alimony until retirement, she could pick whichever of their assets she wanted, yadda, yadda, yadda. That was for the first 6-12 months. After that, as he became less ashamed, that generosity faded very quickly. By the time it came to negotiate for the divorce and then agree, it was a whole new ballgame and he fought everything.
You are in the "honeymoon" phase of the divorce. If he's still feeling guilty and generous, you need to do whatever it takes to get a lawyer quickly. If you do this fast enough, you can get DH to agree and sign off while he's still in that guilty and generous phase. It will not last, so you have a very short window here to make your best deal without extensive fighting and the gamble that even with extensive legal battles you might not do well.
My attorney for my first divorce told me this almost word for word to convince me to write something up immediately. He's been handling divorces for 30 years and told me I can always tear it up and never file, but I'll never get him to be more agreeable than very early on when everything is fresh and he's feeling guilty. I swear, he didn't even read the dissolution agreement presented him, he just signed it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 21:42:45 GMT -5
Seriously. Listen to these people. I've watched the progression time and again, move fast.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 0:59:08 GMT -5
Ok just talked to another lawyer who sounds awesome but she wants 4500 but she sounds very good and told me a few things that i was not aware of which made me go hmmm. Who wants to loan me some money...lol It is very common for attorneys to do an immediate filing to have costs paid by the working spouse. Extremely common in circumstances like yours where one person has been a long term homemaker. They don't wait until the end to be paid. Working spouse has to pay the retainer up front and keep the trust account funded ahead of the billed hours. How many attorneys did you talk to? You said you had counsel a couple of months ago before you even moved out.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 8, 2014 8:50:15 GMT -5
Speaking of getting a lawyer......... How many of you out there see people getting a lawyer for the divorce, pay upfront, say $2,500 promise an easy process, and then 9 months later the lawyer says we need more money. We have spent the $2,500, and low and behold until you redeposit, nothing happens. Even if you do pay more, things progress ever so slower, shoot through the next $2,500 and eventually you wind up finding another lawyer to take your case, with a new deposit to take over your case.
I have had three people I know personally go through this process in the last four years. It seems to be an increasing phenomenum in the divorce proceedings. I am talking people who are not considered more than middle class, without lots of assets. It amazes me how many lawyers it takes to get a divorce these days, unless you are really rich.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 8:55:44 GMT -5
Speaking of getting a lawyer......... How many of you out there see people getting a lawyer for the divorce, pay upfront, say $2,500 promise an easy process, and then 9 months later the lawyer says we need more money. We have spent the $2,500, and low and behold until you redeposit, nothing happens. Even if you do pay more, things progress ever so slower, shoot through the next $2,500 and eventually you wind up finding another lawyer to take your case, with a new deposit to take over your case.
I have had three people I know personally go through this process in the last four years. It seems to be an increasing phenomenum in the divorce proceedings. I am talking people who are not considered more than middle class, without lots of assets. It amazes me how many lawyers it takes to get a divorce these days, unless you are really rich.
The costs only go up if you fight. Work things out between you and your spouse and have the attorneys just do the writing. My first divorce was $800, second $1000. First was 6 weeks from filing to complete. Second was like 10 days...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 9:01:23 GMT -5
Speaking of getting a lawyer......... How many of you out there see people getting a lawyer for the divorce, pay upfront, say $2,500 promise an easy process, and then 9 months later the lawyer says we need more money. We have spent the $2,500, and low and behold until you redeposit, nothing happens. Even if you do pay more, things progress ever so slower, shoot through the next $2,500 and eventually you wind up finding another lawyer to take your case, with a new deposit to take over your case.
I have had three people I know personally go through this process in the last four years. It seems to be an increasing phenomenum in the divorce proceedings. I am talking people who are not considered more than middle class, without lots of assets. It amazes me how many lawyers it takes to get a divorce these days, unless you are really rich.
If people argue and want things, then it costs more money. $2500 is 10 hours of an attorney's time or less. No decent attorney would promise set fee on a divorce because it isn't up to them how much negotiation is needed.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 8, 2014 9:27:39 GMT -5
Speaking of getting a lawyer......... How many of you out there see people getting a lawyer for the divorce, pay upfront, say $2,500 promise an easy process, and then 9 months later the lawyer says we need more money. We have spent the $2,500, and low and behold until you redeposit, nothing happens. Even if you do pay more, things progress ever so slower, shoot through the next $2,500 and eventually you wind up finding another lawyer to take your case, with a new deposit to take over your case.
I have had three people I know personally go through this process in the last four years. It seems to be an increasing phenomenum in the divorce proceedings. I am talking people who are not considered more than middle class, without lots of assets. It amazes me how many lawyers it takes to get a divorce these days, unless you are really rich.
If people argue and want things, then it costs more money. $2500 is 10 hours of an attorney's time or less. No decent attorney would promise set fee on a divorce because it isn't up to them how much negotiation is needed. $2,500 was never the set fee. It was just too get things rolling.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 8, 2014 9:44:06 GMT -5
Oh, when I was telling the story of my close friend and her divorce in FL, I forgot that part. When she first discovered he was cheating, he was embarrassed and promised her a very generous divorce deal. He told her she could keep the house, he'd pay her a large alimony until retirement, she could pick whichever of their assets she wanted, yadda, yadda, yadda. That was for the first 6-12 months. After that, as he became less ashamed, that generosity faded very quickly. By the time it came to negotiate for the divorce and then agree, it was a whole new ballgame and he fought everything.
You are in the "honeymoon" phase of the divorce. If he's still feeling guilty and generous, you need to do whatever it takes to get a lawyer quickly. If you do this fast enough, you can get DH to agree and sign off while he's still in that guilty and generous phase. It will not last, so you have a very short window here to make your best deal without extensive fighting and the gamble that even with extensive legal battles you might not do well.
My attorney for my first divorce told me this almost word for word to convince me to write something up immediately. He's been handling divorces for 30 years and told me I can always tear it up and never file, but I'll never get him to be more agreeable than very early on when everything is fresh and he's feeling guilty. I swear, he didn't even read the dissolution agreement presented him, he just signed it. Get the paperwork put together and signed now!! The longer you wait the less agreeable he will be. And I am going to somewhat differ in my advice. I don't think you absolutely need a lawyer. It is probably a good idea. But, if you speak to a few & know what a fair settlement is & then you two agree upon a fair settlement & file together, then it is fairly easy. At that point you could get a lawyer & have it written up for $1-2K & be done with it or do all the paperwork yourself. For the most part, if you are in agreement on everything, a judge will just sign off on it. A lawyer is more useful if you aren't getting offered a fair deal & you need to fight, but that is what costs the most. A FWIW, I am going to say once again that you need to split assets NOW. No spliting house profits when you finally sell it or splitting retirement money at retirement. Split it all now! I know I am repeating myself, but you haven't commented & IMO this is very, very important. Something I would hire a lawyer over personally if he doesn't agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 12:19:48 GMT -5
Speaking of getting a lawyer......... How many of you out there see people getting a lawyer for the divorce, pay upfront, say $2,500 promise an easy process, and then 9 months later the lawyer says we need more money. We have spent the $2,500, and low and behold until you redeposit, nothing happens. Even if you do pay more, things progress ever so slower, shoot through the next $2,500 and eventually you wind up finding another lawyer to take your case, with a new deposit to take over your case.
I have had three people I know personally go through this process in the last four years. It seems to be an increasing phenomenum in the divorce proceedings. I am talking people who are not considered more than middle class, without lots of assets. It amazes me how many lawyers it takes to get a divorce these days, unless you are really rich.
I don't remember exactly how much I paid to get divorced. I know it wasn't over 2k, I'm sure it was less. It was a long time ago though. There was no back and forth and constant negotiating, so no extra costs. Child support had already been set in another court before I filed for divorce. We had more liabilities than assets. My ex agreed to things and then just didn't do any of it.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jul 8, 2014 13:20:43 GMT -5
My attorney for my first divorce told me this almost word for word to convince me to write something up immediately. He's been handling divorces for 30 years and told me I can always tear it up and never file, but I'll never get him to be more agreeable than very early on when everything is fresh and he's feeling guilty. I swear, he didn't even read the dissolution agreement presented him, he just signed it. Get the paperwork put together and signed now!! The longer you wait the less agreeable he will be. And I am going to somewhat differ in my advice. I don't think you absolutely need a lawyer. It is probably a good idea. But, if you speak to a few & know what a fair settlement is & then you two agree upon a fair settlement & file together, then it is fairly easy. At that point you could get a lawyer & have it written up for $1-2K & be done with it or do all the paperwork yourself. For the most part, if you are in agreement on everything, a judge will just sign off on it. A lawyer is more useful if you aren't getting offered a fair deal & you need to fight, but that is what costs the most. A FWIW, I am going to say once again that you need to split assets NOW. No spliting house profits when you finally sell it or splitting retirement money at retirement. Split it all now! I know I am repeating myself, but you haven't commented & IMO this is very, very important. Something I would hire a lawyer over personally if he doesn't agree. I think she isn't responding because there are no assets now. They are just barely half way through their chapter 13, so the 2nd mortgage on that property is still there (being paid in the 13, and at completion will be removed as if it was an unsecured debt but until then it is still a recorded lien on the property) and title couldn't be released without it being paid in full. Not sure if they have enough equity to do this yet and even break even on the sale. I think she mentioned in another thread that there are almost no retirement savings at this time. It sounded like he had just started back to making contributions, but I'm wondering if they had savings previously if they were liquidated trying to get control of their debt but ended up in bk anyway... Lots of assumptions on my part but I think this is why they are writing everything to be finalized in the future, and at least part of the reason responses have been vague. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 8, 2014 13:32:19 GMT -5
Get the paperwork put together and signed now!! The longer you wait the less agreeable he will be. And I am going to somewhat differ in my advice. I don't think you absolutely need a lawyer. It is probably a good idea. But, if you speak to a few & know what a fair settlement is & then you two agree upon a fair settlement & file together, then it is fairly easy. At that point you could get a lawyer & have it written up for $1-2K & be done with it or do all the paperwork yourself. For the most part, if you are in agreement on everything, a judge will just sign off on it. A lawyer is more useful if you aren't getting offered a fair deal & you need to fight, but that is what costs the most. A FWIW, I am going to say once again that you need to split assets NOW. No spliting house profits when you finally sell it or splitting retirement money at retirement. Split it all now! I know I am repeating myself, but you haven't commented & IMO this is very, very important. Something I would hire a lawyer over personally if he doesn't agree. I think she isn't responding because there are no assets now. They are just barely half way through their chapter 13, so the 2nd mortgage on that property is still there (being paid in the 13, and at completion will be removed as if it was an unsecured debt but until then it is still a recorded lien on the property) and title couldn't be released without it being paid in full. Not sure if they have enough equity to do this yet and even break even on the sale. I think she mentioned in another thread that there are almost no retirement savings at this time. It sounded like he had just started back to making contributions, but I'm wondering if they had savings previously if they were liquidated trying to get control of their debt but ended up in bk anyway... Lots of assumptions on my part but I think this is why they are writing everything to be finalized in the future, and at least part of the reason responses have been vague. Sent from my ADR6410LVW using proboards Well, if that is the case, then I suppose there is nothing to be lost to agree to split assets in the future. Actually, no, there is nothing to be lost if they agree to split his assets in the future - meaning the 401K that he will eventually have someday. Splitting her assets in the future - the house if she keeps it will cost her a fortune. I also wonder if he may be a little less serious about saving in a 401k if he knows 25% will eventually go to her. I wouldn't count on ever getting a dime from that & if you do, then bonus. If there are no assets, then splits the debts (mostly to him), leave him with the house, get your alimony set, and move on with life. It sucks you are walking away with nothing, but if there is nothing to be had, then so is he. I would ask for higher alimony & forego the supposed retirement money, save for your own retirement with the difference.
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