billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 13:51:39 GMT -5
... I just know that there are many things that greatly impact how women and men have to navigate the world differently, it's not just about who gets what degree or salary. A very good, though somewhat dated at this point, book on this is Warren Farrell Why Men Are The Way They Are. One thing it looks at is the emotional price males pay for the privilege they gain.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 5, 2014 14:03:15 GMT -5
We were equally educated at the time of the marriage. When we divorced, my wife was one up on me in the degree department. We have leap-frogged since with her once again one up. Since I have always had zero career motivation, I certainly couldn't be "more" career motivated. She was never a SAHM. Neither of us paid alimony to the other. I didn't consider staying at home because the military police tended to frown on it (I joined the military as we were in the process of getting married - I instead of her because they weren't taking pregnant women at the time). It was very shortly after I got out of the service that we separated.
This, I do not think is fair at all. It is massively difficult to be a spouse of a military member. I know......I watched my mom try to be so. She was an accountant when she married my dad. Despite being better educated than he was, best she could do was a bookkeeper position at a little over min wage.
If your spiuse is in the military, it is difficult to work your way up the hierarchy even if you do manage to get your foot in the door.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 14:16:17 GMT -5
I'm from that older generation that was right on the edge of the push for equality. Remember that as recently as 1976, it was entirely legal to fire a woman for no reason other than she was pregnant. My employer was honest about it, and I did receive unemployment. It was also entirely legal not to hire a woman for no reason other than she was pregnant.
I listened to my ex moan about the "unfairness" of being a white male when it came to being promoted for his entire career. He got plenty of promotions so it wasn't that he wasn't good at his job. He felt truly disadvantaged because of his race and gender. No, he didn't get the irony.
He didn't particularly want a SAHW. What he wanted was what a lot of men in that generation wanted: a wife who worked in addition to doing all the things a non-working wife did. We are talking about 100% of the cleaning, 90% of the child care (I'm giving credit for being a Little League coach), 100% of the cooking . . . you get the idea. Meanwhile, this working wife should bring home a paycheck. This was the generation, by the way, where men had to be bribed to go in the delivery room. The dr. would let them carry the baby to the nursery if they did. They got to play hero, but there was no shame attached to not going. Just like it was considered perfectly acceptable for a man to refuse to change diapers.
Times have changed a lot since then. My point is that the younger generation should not fault the women of my generation who chose not to go to work. At least the traditional gender roles split the burden better. Now the shift to shared roles in household chores and childcare also splits the burden better. But for women of my age (many of your mothers' ages), it sometimes seemed the better choice not to go to work if you were just going to have to do twice as much. .
However, Nutty/Naggie isn't that old. I'm that old, but, like many of you, I feel an able-bodied person should be able to support him- or herself. I did it by working two low-paying jobs until I finally got a good teaching job. Her husband owes her half of the assets that they accumulated together and a helping hand at getting her life restarted. He doesn't owe her $$$ for the rest of her life.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 14:23:33 GMT -5
We were equally educated at the time of the marriage. When we divorced, my wife was one up on me in the degree department. We have leap-frogged since with her once again one up. Since I have always had zero career motivation, I certainly couldn't be "more" career motivated. She was never a SAHM. Neither of us paid alimony to the other. I didn't consider staying at home because the military police tended to frown on it (I joined the military as we were in the process of getting married - I instead of her because they weren't taking pregnant women at the time). It was very shortly after I got out of the service that we separated.This, I do not think is fair at all. It is massively difficult to be a spouse of a military member. I know......I watched my mom try to be so. She was an accountant when she married my dad. Despite being better educated than he was, best she could do was a bookkeeper position at a little over min wage. If your spiuse is in the military, it is difficult to work your way up the hierarchy even if you do manage to get your foot in the door. What is unfair? We started as both holders of GED diplomas at seventeen and finished at twenty-three, her having a liberal arts associates degree and I having a few college credits. Far from holding her back, my holding a steady employment position helped her prepare for a future career.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 5, 2014 14:32:46 GMT -5
We were equally educated at the time of the marriage. When we divorced, my wife was one up on me in the degree department. We have leap-frogged since with her once again one up. Since I have always had zero career motivation, I certainly couldn't be "more" career motivated. She was never a SAHM. Neither of us paid alimony to the other. I didn't consider staying at home because the military police tended to frown on it (I joined the military as we were in the process of getting married - I instead of her because they weren't taking pregnant women at the time). It was very shortly after I got out of the service that we separated.This, I do not think is fair at all. It is massively difficult to be a spouse of a military member. I know......I watched my mom try to be so. She was an accountant when she married my dad. Despite being better educated than he was, best she could do was a bookkeeper position at a little over min wage. If your spiuse is in the military, it is difficult to work your way up the hierarchy even if you do manage to get your foot in the door. What is unfair? We started as both holders of GED diplomas at seventeen and finished at twenty-three, her having a liberal arts associates degree and I having a few college credits. Far from holding her back, my holding a steady employment position helped her prepare for a future career. While you were in the military? How frequently did you move? Where were you stationed? What sort of hours? While you were likely enlisted, who would provide childcare while she was preparing for a career? Certainly not your salary as a young enlisted person. She had a Liberal arts associate degree. What kind of job could she get that would cover daycare?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 14:33:47 GMT -5
... This was the generation, by the way, where men had to be bribed to go in the delivery room. The dr. would let them carry the baby to the nursery if they did. They got to play hero, but there was no shame attached to not going. Just like it was considered perfectly acceptable for a man to refuse to change diapers. ... While long term paying the emotional price that comes with not bonding with their child. Of course in a system in which males were expected to march of to war or engage in hazardous careers, it makes sense to discourage close father\child bonding. Fortunately that is changing.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 14:59:16 GMT -5
What is unfair? We started as both holders of GED diplomas at seventeen and finished at twenty-three, her having a liberal arts associates degree and I having a few college credits. Far from holding her back, my holding a steady employment position helped her prepare for a future career. While you were in the military? How frequently did you move? Where were you stationed? What sort of hours? While you were likely enlisted, who would provide childcare while she was preparing for a career? Certainly not your salary as a young enlisted person. She had a Liberal arts associate degree. What kind of job could she get that would cover daycare? We spent time on Guam during which she worked at a hobby store first as a clerk then as the manager at age eighteen\nineteen, gaining wonderful resume experience in an employment area she had no career interest in. Subsequently, we moved back to the states. During those years she got her associates degree. We used campus daycare which was very reasonably priced so that my lowly wage (plus student aid) did provide her the opportunity to go to school and earn a degree. We also used some of that time to have a second child. Her job opportunities were limited with her associates degree, but better than mine with no degree. If I had been career military and\or my ex had to deal with transfers well into her life span, I would be there with you. She was twenty-three when we split. How many rungs have most people that age already climbed in their life careers?
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 5, 2014 15:46:27 GMT -5
He is a sap if he is offering 23 years of alimony...that is crazy! No, pretty smart I think. He'll put that into the agreement knowing that he can have it overturned later. Nutty will agree to less assets now in return for 23 years alimony. Later he'll go back and say that was unreasonable. The court doesn't re-do a property settlement, but they will re-do alimony or child support. She absolutely can get 75%+ of the current assets. His ability to out earn her by 10X-20X is a huge factor in how they will split assets. I have seen this done in numerous long term marriage dissolutions. I believe you are pretty much right on this, as this is essentially what happened to me even many years ago. I had just finished an education that would allow me to earn 4x my exH's salary. The judge told me specifically that the split in which the ex got all the assets except my car and clothes and $10,000 as well as transitional spousal support was because I could rebuild much more easily than the ex. Which certainly was true. (The10,000$ was to get me started somewhere: first and last month's rent/security deposit/utility deposits, etc). I do think, because of that, nutty should max what she can get now, in exchange for shorter length, more realistic duration of alimony. Bird in the hand, etc. Nutty should not be vindictive, just realistic. Nutty is absolutely young enough to re-build a decent life.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 15:55:43 GMT -5
I know I was riding my Father very hard when he was leaving the "stay at home person" my Mother was so she wouldn't simply be a burden passed on to my sister, brother, and myself. She did surprise us and actually became an adult but things were in place in case she didn't.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 5, 2014 15:59:51 GMT -5
While you were in the military? How frequently did you move? Where were you stationed? What sort of hours? While you were likely enlisted, who would provide childcare while she was preparing for a career? Certainly not your salary as a young enlisted person. She had a Liberal arts associate degree. What kind of job could she get that would cover daycare? We spent time on Guam during which she worked at a hobby store first as a clerk then as the manager at age eighteen\nineteen, gaining wonderful resume experience in an employment area she had no career interest in. Subsequently, we moved back to the states. During those years she got her associates degree. We used campus daycare which was very reasonably priced so that my lowly wage (plus student aid) did provide her the opportunity to go to school and earn a degree. We also used some of that time to have a second child. Her job opportunities were limited with her associates degree, but better than mine with no degree. If I had been career military and\or my ex had to deal with transfers well into her life span, I would be there with you. She was twenty-three when we split. How many rungs have most people that age already climbed in their life careers? At 23, I was on my third job after I got my degree, had taken graduate classes and was about 3 steps higher up than where I started. I had also gained a tremendous amount of training during that time. Not long after this, I got my first publication. However, I was not married. I did not have kids, and I moved twice for a job to increase my opportunities. I would disagree with you that her LA associates degree was more valuable than the military experience you acquired.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 16:12:49 GMT -5
We spent time on Guam during which she worked at a hobby store first as a clerk then as the manager at age eighteen\nineteen, gaining wonderful resume experience in an employment area she had no career interest in. Subsequently, we moved back to the states. During those years she got her associates degree. We used campus daycare which was very reasonably priced so that my lowly wage (plus student aid) did provide her the opportunity to go to school and earn a degree. We also used some of that time to have a second child. Her job opportunities were limited with her associates degree, but better than mine with no degree. If I had been career military and\or my ex had to deal with transfers well into her life span, I would be there with you. She was twenty-three when we split. How many rungs have most people that age already climbed in their life careers? At 23, I was on my third job after I got my degree, had taken graduate classes and was about 3 steps higher up than where I started. I had also gained a tremendous amount of training during that time. Not long after this, I got my first publication. However, I was not married. I did not have kids, and I moved twice for a job to increase my opportunities. I would disagree with you that her LA associates degree was more valuable than the military experience you acquired. That is one very significant "(h)owever". Would you say that your life would be an example of the common experience of young people in this country? (I wouldn't.) My military experience qualified me to be an office clerk.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 17:19:26 GMT -5
While you were in the military? How frequently did you move? Where were you stationed? What sort of hours? While you were likely enlisted, who would provide childcare while she was preparing for a career? Certainly not your salary as a young enlisted person. She had a Liberal arts associate degree. What kind of job could she get that would cover daycare? We spent time on Guam during which she worked at a hobby store first as a clerk then as the manager at age eighteen\nineteen, gaining wonderful resume experience in an employment area she had no career interest in. Subsequently, we moved back to the states. During those years she got her associates degree. We used campus daycare which was very reasonably priced so that my lowly wage (plus student aid) did provide her the opportunity to go to school and earn a degree. We also used some of that time to have a second child. Her job opportunities were limited with her associates degree, but better than mine with no degree. If I had been career military and\or my ex had to deal with transfers well into her life span, I would be there with you. She was twenty-three when we split. How many rungs have most people that age already climbed in their life careers? You got divorced at 23 when you didn't have a pot to piss in....there is no way that you lost that much in assets. I was college educated and hopped right into a good career but I certainly wasn't rolling in the money at 23.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 5, 2014 17:26:18 GMT -5
At 23, I was on my third job after I got my degree, had taken graduate classes and was about 3 steps higher up than where I started. I had also gained a tremendous amount of training during that time. Not long after this, I got my first publication. However, I was not married. I did not have kids, and I moved twice for a job to increase my opportunities. I would disagree with you that her LA associates degree was more valuable than the military experience you acquired. That is one very significant "(h)owever". Would you say that your life would be an example of the common experience of young people in this country? (I wouldn't.) My military experience qualified me to be an office clerk. This was a choice I made. I grew up in the military and had absolutely NO intention of getting trapped. I saw the lifestyle of young enlisted and I did not want to be an uneducated spouse, living on base housing and a couple kids. So I made choices to make sure that I would not wind up like this. My epiphany was when I was 15 and babysitting for a young airman. His wife went to a shower, supposed to be home no later than 9 pm and he was working until midnight. I had school the next day and was supposed to be home by 10. At 10:30, I called the number left for me and found out that the shower had broken up at 8. I was stuck there as I could no leave the child alone. I tried to nap on the sofa, but it stunk of urine....The whole house stunk of urine. Husband showed up at midnight and told me I had to find my own way home. I called my dad to pick me up, and when I asked to be paid, I was told "my wife hired you, she pays you". So I got gypped too. That lesson was waaaay more valuable than the $6 I would have earned that evening. I am not so different than many on this board, who educated themselves, dealt with the sacrifices and worked their ass off to get where they are today. I knew that mistakes I could make in HS and college could derail my plans, and made sure that that did not happen. Tell me what sort of job your ex's liberal arts qualified her for? Not any more than your military experience.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 19:09:03 GMT -5
... I am not so different than many on this board, who educated themselves, dealt with the sacrifices and worked their ass off to get where they are today. I knew that mistakes I could make in HS and college could derail my plans, and made sure that that did not happen. Tell me what sort of job your ex's liberal arts qualified her for? Not any more than your military experience. I would love to hear from others here who were three rungs up their career ladder at 23. I will gladly grant your "not so different" if we hear from at least a couple more who were where you were. Unlike you, l didn't avoid mistakes in HS. I did not allow that to derail my plans but it did send me on an interesting sidetrack. I also, like many here, worked hard while making sacrifices to educate myself. I concede the point that my ex's degree did not qualify her for a job better than I might have gotten. It did put her two years closer than I to a degree that would result in a quality career.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 19:23:37 GMT -5
... I am not so different than many on this board, who educated themselves, dealt with the sacrifices and worked their ass off to get where they are today. I knew that mistakes I could make in HS and college could derail my plans, and made sure that that did not happen. Tell me what sort of job your ex's liberal arts qualified her for? Not any more than your military experience. I would love to hear from others here who were three rungs up their career ladder at 23. I will gladly grant your "not so different" if we hear from at least a couple more who were where you were. Unlike you, l didn't avoid mistakes in HS. I did not allow that to derail my plans but it did send me on an interesting sidetrack. I also, like many here, worked hard while making sacrifices to educate myself. I concede the point that my ex's degree did not qualify her for a job better than I might have gotten. It did put her two years closer than I to a degree that would result in a quality career. I started my first professional job a week after I turned 23 so I was nowhere near when Mich was.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 19:53:44 GMT -5
... ....there is no way that you lost that much in assets. ... May you never experience that which I lost.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 20:07:59 GMT -5
... ....there is no way that you lost that much in assets. ... May you never experience that which I lost. Ok, I was thinking material assets. I am clearly mistaken. I'm guessing it involves children :-(
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 20:13:08 GMT -5
May you never experience that which I lost. Ok, I was thinking material assets. I am clearly mistaken. I'm guessing it involves children :-( Thank you.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 5, 2014 20:15:47 GMT -5
Ok, I was thinking material assets. I am clearly mistaken. I'm guessing it involves children :-( Thank you. And now I understand your bitterness...taking my money is one thing but don't mess with my kids. I completely misunderstood every post you made in this thread
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 5, 2014 20:26:58 GMT -5
And now I understand your bitterness...taking my money is one thing but don't mess with my kids. I completely misunderstood every post you made in this thread we are off topic your money here, aren't we?
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 7:42:55 GMT -5
I haven't read the last few pages but I will. I want to say that things are getting confusing a little. Very confusing. I am seeing things and hearing things that are not adding up to his actions. I feel his motivations are not quite what they seem on the surface.
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Jul 7, 2014 7:47:49 GMT -5
I haven't read the last few pages but I will. I want to say that things are getting confusing a little. Very confusing. I am seeing things and hearing things that are not adding up to his actions. I feel his motivations are not quite what they seem on the surface. Just be careful. Don't rely on promises. IMHO, you are still better off getting the max now, not trying to depend on 23years of support and trying to accelerate your becoming self-sufficient instead. Being self-reliant is great. Best wishes, nutty. Stay strong.
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 7:54:26 GMT -5
Thank you achelous. I have plenty of time to start again. Right now i have no car. Its getting pretty dicey. I am confused.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 8:02:36 GMT -5
I haven't read the last few pages but I will. I want to say that things are getting confusing a little. Very confusing. I am seeing things and hearing things that are not adding up to his actions. I feel his motivations are not quite what they seem on the surface. My dear you had promises and promises can be broken. Do you have your own lawyer? Even if to keep the peace and cost down you go through mediation I would suggest you keep your own lawyer. What is happening with your husband is normal and expected: - he made all the promises because at the time he felt guilty (and like shit) and to relieve those feelings he promised you the moon and back - now that he is feeling less guilty and less like shit... He is realizing that his promises were "outrageous" and he was crazy to make them. - now if he consult with a lawyer or worse get a new girlfriend... Those promises are as good as gone gone gone. Get a lawyer and try to settle this as amicably and reasonably as possible. - Understand you will not get 23 years but try for 5-10, long enough to get a degree and get back on your feet. - don't keep the house - get your fair share of the retirement account and don't cash it out Good luck!
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Jul 7, 2014 8:03:12 GMT -5
Well, the first thing you want to do is sit down and read the last several pages of the offer. Have you found an attorney yet ? Have you shown the offer to your attorney ?
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nutty
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Post by nutty on Jul 7, 2014 9:27:24 GMT -5
I DON't HAVE MONEY for a lawyer at the moment. Not going to lie I have spent the morning crying and feeling helpless and out of control.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 7, 2014 9:34:11 GMT -5
I DON't HAVE MONEY for a lawyer at the moment. Not going to lie I have spent the morning crying and feeling helpless and out of control. Won't the court be willing to "ask" hubby to pay? Won't an attorney be willing to wait for payday? Truly questions, I don't have answers.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2014 9:36:43 GMT -5
I've never seen a lawyer that didn't want a retainer UPFRONT. This is what should have been doing all along. Stashing money so shed have a retainer. She doesn't even have a car for Pete's sake.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 7, 2014 9:38:07 GMT -5
I DON't HAVE MONEY for a lawyer at the moment. Not going to lie I have spent the morning crying and feeling helpless and out of control. I suspect you may be able to find an attorney's would be willing to work under the agreement that they get paid once everything has been settled, especially as there are plenty of joint assets. I suspect there are quite a few people out there that leave a bad marriage with little or no funds who manage to find good representation for their divorce. If that doesn't work perhaps you could borrow the money from a family member? Do you have a job yet? If so start saving.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:38:46 GMT -5
I DON't HAVE MONEY for a lawyer at the moment. Not going to lie I have spent the morning crying and feeling helpless and out of control. you can't afford to not have a lawyer.....that's the best way to get screwed. you need to understand the legal implications of anything you agree to.
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