Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 13:32:15 GMT -5
::DH and I have officially agreed to respect each other in spoken word and writing, in front of witnesses even. That's as formal a contract as it can get. I take my promises very seriously. :: He might think that if you don't allow him to have sex with who he wants that you are disrespecting him. Is that you breaking your vows? That's the problem with thinking vows like "respect each other" is meaningful. It relies completely on the person feeling disrespected.A specific thing isn't the issue, in my opinion. People have different hot buttons. It's the lying and sneaking around, doing what would hurt another most if they knew. I honestly see lying and secretly hurting another as pretty clear cut as far level of respect. If a desire is in the open, then things go from there, either acquiescing, compromise, or dissolving the partnership. People do change, shit happens. Things evolve. But I think the commonly agreed more respectful way, and much more keeping with the sworn vows is to talk about it or move on, rather than to lie and secretly wound another in the worst ways possible had they known.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Apr 11, 2014 13:32:18 GMT -5
::And I specifically stated in my first reply that I wasn't talking about people whose spouse refused to have sex with them anymore. I personally would put someone gaining a huge amount of weight as well. Those are different circumstances - you would like and prefer to just keep having sex with your spouse and only your, but they have stopped (or are only giving you a birthday blow job or something). To me that is them unilaterally changing the script and the change needs to be renegotiated (maybe resulting in spouse saying "yup, don't want sex anymore. You go have fun, just don't be an ass parading your sex things around").:: It doesn't have to be just an unwilling spouse. Gaining weight like I said, it could be that my tastes have changed over time...maybe now I just LIKE the idea of having sex with other people. I'm just saying it's not as if everyone who cheats goes into a relationship thinking "ya know, someday I'd like to cheat on them". I think in fact it's far more likely that it often happens how I've described it. You go in not really thinking about it, and at some point you decide you want it. ::It's the ones that NEED to have sex with other people. That "can't help" sleeping with someone else.:: What I'm saying is that not everyone who feels this way at 50 had the same feelings at 20. People change over time. Bully for you. You're still a lying asshole if you go and cheat on your spouse because your needs have changed and you haven't talked to them about your changed needs and how you can handle it in your relationship. You renegotiate the terms now that things have changed instead of unilaterally, secretly, changing the terms. If that's not how your marriage works, then I guess you don't have to do that. But I would think most marriages start from a singular point with the assumption (or out right stating) that changes as you go along need to be compromised and renegotiated. And for cripes sake, in the very thing you just quoted I said I would consider a spouse gaining a large amount of weight them unilaterally making changes.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Apr 11, 2014 13:32:53 GMT -5
::It's magical because I want fidelity. I want to be the person my spouse comes home to, shares sex with, talks to, and all that other stuff.:: You want him to talk to you...if he talks to someone else is that a dealbreaker? I understand that's important to YOU, that doesn't make it important to everyone else. Don't quote out of context. Read the next sentence.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 13:37:59 GMT -5
You guys do understand that I'm not saying you have to cheat right? And I hope that none of you are ever cheated on. But I'm not willing to say that everyone of the millions of people that cheat are assholes.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,085
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 11, 2014 13:39:10 GMT -5
He might think that if you don't allow him to have sex with who he wants that you are disrespecting him
Then you talk to your spouse. You may find they are open to swinging or having a threesome.
Or you'll find out they are not and don't want you having sex with other people. Then you have a choice, you either decide to live with it OR you go find someone who is interest in having an open relationship.
I don't buy into the idea of cheating. Like everything else in life sometimes you can't have everything you want. So you need to make a choice. You don't run around behind someone's back and do things you know would hurt them b/c you don't want to have to make any tough choices.
If they don't care then that's an entirely different situation.
I'm not willing to say that everyone of the millions of people that cheat are assholes.
My BIL has cheated multiple times. My BFF cheated. I don't think either one of them are assholes.
Do I think the decisions they made were stupid and disrespectful to their spouses at the time? Yes.
At the end of the day though it's none of my business. I don't care what their reasons or justifications were. They are never going to get me to agree with them. It's between them and their spouses how they chose to handle things.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 13:48:28 GMT -5
Marriage is a legal contract. I would consider the vows the terms of the contract (and states did as well before no fault divorces arose) and most people have fidelity as part of their vows. So infidelity would be breaking a legal contract. I'm not aware of any vows that talk about not having sex with people. Maybe you're talking about "forsaking all others"...which means giving up all others. It's an arbitrary definition to assume that means sex specifically and not forsaking all contact with others, forsaking meaningful conversation with others, forsaking any kind of relationship at al with others. There's nothing inherent in the marital contract which bars having sex with someone. DH and I discussed this before we got married and we agree that it means giving up sex with anyone else. if YOU interpret it as meaning something else I do hope you discussed it with your wife prior to marriage.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 11, 2014 13:51:38 GMT -5
::It's magical because I want fidelity. I want to be the person my spouse comes home to, shares sex with, talks to, and all that other stuff.:: You want him to talk to you...if he talks to someone else is that a dealbreaker? I understand that's important to YOU, that doesn't make it important to everyone else. Very good point. It all comes down to what each individual considers important...what each person considers a deal breaker. For example? You consider sex no different than a handshake. I see sex as something...the one thing...you don't have to share with the rest of the world...something just between my husband and myself (if a had one!). People place different levels of importance on different things. I feel that way for a number of reasons. First, of course, is the whole "Thou shalt not commit adultry" thing. Secondly, it's a way of protecting each other from shit out there that can kill you and I wouldn't want anyone bringing home somebody's cooties. But my way isn't the only way to feel. Everybody gets to decide that for themselves. I could not be with a man who wouldn't care if I had sex with his best friend. Just couldn't. That doesn't mean nobody could. If I ever get married again, it will be agreed that there will be other sexual partners and I dont' care if I grow warts and gain 50 pounds...or if he does. If I or he just has to have sex or we will die, and sex with him/me is unthinkable, we go our separate ways. Period. No cheating, lying, disrespect or making the other person feel like crap. I totally get what you are saying in that sometimes, people's needs (wants) change over the years. You talk it through to see if it can be worked out. Suppose my husband came to me after 15 years and said he has decided he is bisexual and wishes to have sex with a man. You talk it out. It goes like this: Him: Honey? I've realized I'm really turned on by men also. Me: Ok. What is it you want? Him: I need to be able to stay with you. I love you. But I need to have occasional sex with a man. Me: No. So what now? Him: Well? I have to have a man once in awhile. Me: So...who moves out?
Saying that you should sit down and talk it out doesn't mean someone gets to do what they want because they talked it out. It means you try to come to a compromise and if you can't, you have to decide what do do from there. But cheating isn't it.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 13:53:58 GMT -5
Or...he acts like an adult and lets his wife know what needs aren't being met so they can address them as a couple. Cheating is not the answer Maybe my need is to have sex with other women, I can address those needs myself and my wife certainly can't meet those needs. Ever heard the phrase, Who would you like me to be? ... Maybe some role play and some wigs are in order...
|
|
cktc
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 19, 2013 22:15:31 GMT -5
Posts: 3,202
|
Post by cktc on Apr 11, 2014 13:59:14 GMT -5
And yes... DH knows exactly how I feel about it. So if he can't getting all his emotional needs met with you his choices are; stay miserable, get a divorce, or cheat. Staying miserable is torture. He loves you, you're a great partner and mother and it isn't like there is another woman out there who can fill all his needs so a divorce doesn't make anything better. And you won't agree to an open marriage. So he gambles that you won't find out about the affair and he has a shot at contentment. Why does one have to look externally to get their needs met? Why is it your partners, or some third parties responsibility to see to your happiness when you aren't even considering theirs? And guess what, cheating =/= happiness. That's like saying cocaine makes you happy so you should have some whenever you want at any expense. My ex was a miserable sod during his affair, and it wasn't JUST sex. He was moody, unavailable, wasting joint money, and risking pregnancy, and STDs. I'm not looking for a long term commitment with a side of bunny boiler, illegitimate children to support, herpes, and essentially carrying all the weight of home life obligations because someone doesn't know what they want and thinks sex isn't a big deal, which is ironic considering they structure their life around it. I can meet my own needs. if I can't find a partner who can do the same I'd rather be single.
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,085
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 11, 2014 14:01:05 GMT -5
I'm not looking for a long term commitment with a side of bunny boiler,
Love it!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 14:01:10 GMT -5
...:::"Is is required that absolutely every single need every single person has is met? It's my opinion that most "needs" are actually "wants", but for the sake of this discussion, I'll use "needs".":::... OK this statement stuck to me, because I believe that it can very much be about needs or wants not being met. In my opinion, when a need or want goes unmet long enough, all one can focus on is that its not being met. Nobody really wants to hear "but you have all these other great things" when something that is important to them is going unmet. To me, all I hear is "starving African". I love DW, things have been pretty damn good lately. We've both been more giving, and there has been a lot less tension and much more harmony. We aren't fighting about money. We aren't fighting about chores. Things I want are happening automatically instead of me having to ask or scheme for them. Same seems to be true vice versa. She has really metered out her asks, toned them down, and given more in between them. I'm quite happy. Sometimes one just wants something so badly, nothing else matters. Its easy to dismiss that mindset until its your unmet need. Others just feel entitled to everything, and genuinely believe that its the other person's problem if they don't "understand". Others still just can't seem to help themselves. I had a friend who cheated constantly even when happy. Not sure what need was being met there, and she knew she was wrong. Great IM chat that was. "Hey, how's your boyfriend." "We broke up. I cheated again. I'm such a whore". The thing is everyone can want SOMEthing just that badly I think, this the dealbreakers... But I don't think you get to want EVERYthing so badly... Eventually you need to prioritize and make choices.
|
|
Green Eyed Lady
Senior Associate
Look inna eye! Always look inna eye!
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -5
Posts: 19,629
|
Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 11, 2014 14:01:44 GMT -5
Exactly.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Apr 11, 2014 14:03:21 GMT -5
I'd like to get a little insight as to why you think people cheat on their spouses or significant other. Maybe it's just because I've never been married or really been that emotionally attached to someone, and just hear about such things, but I have difficulty understanding why someone would want to cheat on their spouse. Or maybe it's just I can't understand how someone can get more than one SO while I can't get one. Anyway, why do people cheat? Is there always malicious intent, or is it just being thoughtless about those they're hurting, or is cowardace of not wanting to end the original relationship, or are some people just that manipulative, or do people think they'll never get caught? On the flipside, what about the other person. Who would have such little self respect as to be in a relationship with someone you know is married? I realize it's different when you're the one involved and your emotions are tied up in another person, but it doesn't make much sense. I do not have time nor desire to read all these posts. Please, tell me that someone who is actually cheated or presently cheating on their spouses came out and told you all WHY!!! Because point of asking 'people' why anyone is cheating is just...pointless. If I had never cheated on my spouse what kind of answer can I give you? So to get your question answered you need to have several people who had cheated to tell you why and than you will make your conclusion about cheating...
|
|
NomoreDramaQ1015
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 14:26:32 GMT -5
Posts: 48,085
|
Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 11, 2014 14:04:42 GMT -5
I actually understood and even agreed with Tloony.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 14:04:42 GMT -5
::I call BS on that anymore. All the dating sites have options saying you seek an open relationship. Hell, some have options saying you're seeking a third! You've got TV shows about people having more than one relationship at a time. Advice columnists talking about it, making up words like monogamous-ish to describe it. It's not some new fangled, rarely talked about secret any more that those relationships exist. :: You seem to be under the impression, or at least are making the argument, that people enter relationships where sleeping with others is all planned out from the beginning. I didn't get married to my wife thinking I'm going to sleep around, but I also didn't get married to my wife thinking she'd gain 200 lbs and stop shaving her legs. If she did, I might start thinking about that. We certainly weren't looking for an "open relationship", that doesn't mean people's needs don't change after 5, 10, 20 years together. Point being, you discuss it with her, you both understand your options, you both make your choices... Not cheating. You go behind her back and bang your secretary... Cheating.
|
|
cktc
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 19, 2013 22:15:31 GMT -5
Posts: 3,202
|
Post by cktc on Apr 11, 2014 14:09:16 GMT -5
You guys do understand that I'm not saying you have to cheat right? And I hope that none of you are ever cheated on. But I'm not willing to say that everyone of the millions of people that cheat are assholes. I don't think everyone who cheats is an asshole. A lot of people near and dear to me have cheated, but I would never say it's not a big deal, or it is the best course of action. It can be devastating to everyone involved, and I wish more people would realize there are better options.
|
|
tloonya
Junior Associate
What status?
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 16:22:13 GMT -5
Posts: 8,452
|
Post by tloonya on Apr 11, 2014 14:27:47 GMT -5
I actually understood and even agreed with Tloony. Let's try again. How about different force of individual libido?
|
|
Cookies Galore
Senior Associate
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 18:08:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,891
|
Post by Cookies Galore on Apr 11, 2014 14:37:07 GMT -5
Marriage is a legal contract. I would consider the vows the terms of the contract (and states did as well before no fault divorces arose) and most people have fidelity as part of their vows. So infidelity would be breaking a legal contract. I've got my out! Fidelity was not even a part of our ceremony. Sweet!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 14:48:48 GMT -5
Obey was out of our vows.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 14:49:34 GMT -5
You guys do understand that I'm not saying you have to cheat right? And I hope that none of you are ever cheated on. But I'm not willing to say that everyone of the millions of people that cheat are assholes. I don't think everyone who cheats is an asshole. A lot of people near and dear to me have cheated, but I would never say it's not a big deal, or it is the best course of action. It can be devastating to everyone involved, and I wish more people would realize there are better options. i will cheaters are assholes.....every one of them my way of thinking is this any relationship is built on trust cheating for whatever reason destroys that trust if the couple has discussed an open marriage, then it is not cheating (havent seen many of these work) cheating goes against every moral fiber in my body.....i couldnt do it and i would bet my life, my wife feels the same way that is how sure i am about our relationship marriages fail....for many reasons my first was a disaster....but never for an abuse of trust
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 11, 2014 14:58:32 GMT -5
Obey was out of our vows. Our vows were "love, honor and cherish". No way will I obey anyone!
|
|
midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,720
|
Post by midjd on Apr 11, 2014 14:59:03 GMT -5
Marriage is a legal contract. I would consider the vows the terms of the contract (and states did as well before no fault divorces arose) and most people have fidelity as part of their vows. So infidelity would be breaking a legal contract. I've got my out! Fidelity was not even a part of our ceremony. Sweet! I was so nervous that I don't remember a word of our vows. A judge married us, so it lacked the religious component, but I seriously have no clue what else was said. Does that mean I don't have a real marriage?
|
|
8 Bit WWBG
Administrator
Your Money admin
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 8:57:29 GMT -5
Posts: 9,322
Today's Mood: Mega
|
Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Apr 11, 2014 15:08:50 GMT -5
...:::"The thing is everyone can want SOMEthing just that badly I think, this the dealbreakers... But I don't think you get to want EVERYthing so badly... Eventually you need to prioritize and make choices.":::...
I don't think it always starts out that way. Things that were "tolerable" become far less so if say they slide really far, or if all the other good stuff goes away.
And again, its easy to tell someone to "prioritize". Starving African. Maybe the priorities shift then? Well minimal sex was OK while the withholder was cooking and cleaning and buying stuff. But go long enough without something, and every other mitigating factor will drop down the scale until the missing item is number 1. So there you go, I prioritized.
Just seems like people who can pledge to spend their lives together should really be better to each other.
|
|
justme
Senior Associate
Joined: Feb 10, 2012 13:12:47 GMT -5
Posts: 14,618
|
Post by justme on Apr 11, 2014 15:11:21 GMT -5
I've got my out! Fidelity was not even a part of our ceremony. Sweet! I was so nervous that I don't remember a word of our vows. A judge married us, so it lacked the religious component, but I seriously have no clue what else was said. Does that mean I don't have a real marriage? Of course not. YM sayeth so. On the upside you can go on a sex spree now without cheating since you're not really married.
|
|
imawino
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 22:58:16 GMT -5
Posts: 5,370
|
Post by imawino on Apr 11, 2014 15:16:43 GMT -5
I've got my out! Fidelity was not even a part of our ceremony. Sweet! I was so nervous that I don't remember a word of our vows. A judge married us, so it lacked the religious component, but I seriously have no clue what else was said. Does that mean I don't have a real marriage? I was just thinking the same thing!!! LOL. Then again, I AM divorced.....
|
|
hoops902
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 22, 2010 13:21:29 GMT -5
Posts: 11,978
|
Post by hoops902 on Apr 11, 2014 15:20:40 GMT -5
::if YOU interpret it as meaning something else I do hope you discussed it with your wife prior to marriage.::
When my interpretation of something is different than a stranger on the internet, I don't feel like that's something I must discuss with my wife.
::Point being, you discuss it with her, you both understand your options, you both make your choices... Not cheating. You go behind her back and bang your secretary... Cheating. ::
Does my wife need to come to me to discuss every single action she is going to take so that we can all understand all our options? She does lots of stuff without clearing it with me first. It doesn't require her to lie just like me cheating wouldn't necessarily cause me to lie.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 15:22:28 GMT -5
...:::"The thing is everyone can want SOMEthing just that badly I think, this the dealbreakers... But I don't think you get to want EVERYthing so badly... Eventually you need to prioritize and make choices.":::... I don't think it always starts out that way. Things that were "tolerable" become far less so if say they slide really far, or if all the other good stuff goes away. And again, its easy to tell someone to "prioritize". Starving African. Maybe the priorities shift then? Well minimal sex was OK while the withholder was cooking and cleaning and buying stuff. But go long enough without something, and every other mitigating factor will drop down the scale until the missing item is number 1. So there you go, I prioritized. Just seems like people who can pledge to spend their lives together should really be better to each other. Marrying someone with similar sexual appetites would alleviate most of the stress.
|
|
|
Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Apr 11, 2014 15:22:37 GMT -5
::It's magical because I want fidelity. I want to be the person my spouse comes home to, shares sex with, talks to, and all that other stuff.:: You want him to talk to you...if he talks to someone else is that a dealbreaker? I understand that's important to YOU, that doesn't make it important to everyone else. Very good point. It all comes down to what each individual considers important...what each person considers a deal breaker. For example? You consider sex no different than a handshake. I see sex as something...the one thing...you don't have to share with the rest of the world...something just between my husband and myself (if a had one!). People place different levels of importance on different things. I feel that way for a number of reasons. First, of course, is the whole "Thou shalt not commit adultry" thing. Secondly, it's a way of protecting each other from shit out there that can kill you and I wouldn't want anyone bringing home somebody's cooties. But my way isn't the only way to feel. Everybody gets to decide that for themselves. I could not be with a man who wouldn't care if I had sex with his best friend. Just couldn't. That doesn't mean nobody could. If I ever get married again, it will be agreed that there will be other sexual partners and I dont' care if I grow warts and gain 50 pounds...or if he does. If I or he just has to have sex or we will die, and sex with him/me is unthinkable, we go our separate ways. Period. No cheating, lying, disrespect or making the other person feel like crap. I totally get what you are saying in that sometimes, people's needs (wants) change over the years. You talk it through to see if it can be worked out. Suppose my husband came to me after 15 years and said he has decided he is bisexual and wishes to have sex with a man. You talk it out. It goes like this: Him: Honey? I've realized I'm really turned on by men also. Me: Ok. What is it you want? Him: I need to be able to stay with you. I love you. But I need to have occasional sex with a man. Me: No. So what now? Him: Well? I have to have a man once in awhile. Me: So...who moves out?
Saying that you should sit down and talk it out doesn't mean someone gets to do what they want because they talked it out. It means you try to come to a compromise and if you can't, you have to decide what do do from there. But cheating isn't it. ...seems like you're missing a 'not' in there, green eyes...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 9, 2024 6:16:40 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 15:23:08 GMT -5
It's been said already but for those who are saying that people change during a marriage and needs and wants can change, that's fine. If you suddenly decide that you want to change the terms of your marriage, you first must let your partner know and let them decide whether they want to accept the new terms or not. If you want to renegotiate, fine, but be prepared for the other to walk if they disagree. Soooooooo
|
|
Miss Tequila
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
Posts: 20,602
|
Post by Miss Tequila on Apr 11, 2014 15:24:11 GMT -5
::if YOU interpret it as meaning something else I do hope you discussed it with your wife prior to marriage.:: When my interpretation of something is different than a stranger on the internet, I don't feel like that's something I must discuss with my wife. ::Point being, you discuss it with her, you both understand your options, you both make your choices... Not cheating. You go behind her back and bang your secretary... Cheating. :: Does my wife need to come to me to discuss every single action she is going to take so that we can all understand all our options? She does lots of stuff without clearing it with me first. It doesn't require her to lie just like me cheating wouldn't necessarily cause me to lie. Would your wife be ok if she found out you were cheating on her?
|
|