milee
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Post by milee on Apr 9, 2014 6:51:57 GMT -5
As for the idea that he won't run because he hasn't before - that's a weak reason. I'm not going Chicken Little and asserting that he WILL run, but if you're basing your hope that he won't run on the fact that he hasn't before, that's probably not very strong evidence. He hadn't hit you before the first time he actually hit you, right? I have no idea if he would try to run or not, but I do know that for the vast majority of parental kidnappings or cases where a parent harms a child, it's the first time.
I don't think that MPL can do much more to protect against this possible scenario. I know very, very little about these situations, and maybe I missed something...but what I have picked up is that the courts, at least in my state, want kids with their parents. The court documents really only give you better and hopefully faster recourse if one party breaks an agreement anyway in my opinion. She has sole custody and the divorce decree states visits must be supervised. Without a specific incident is it likely that the courts will do anything else to help her against a possibility that he could kidnap his son? You're right that it wouldn't be reasonable to take this concern to the court. My post was directed at the visits and the importance of making sure that an appropriate person is supervising and that this is happening within earshot of the visit. A supervisor may not be able to physically stop the X since he's a big guy, but the supervisor definitely could serve as a deterrent, slow things down if they start to go sideways and be on the phone to 911 to get help quickly if anything does ever happen.
She's indicating that she's comfortable with the idea that the Mommy and Me classroom setting qualifies as supervised and she knows more about the situation - both him and the class set up - than I do. I was just pointing out some potential areas of concern with that scenario.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 7:40:58 GMT -5
The only people you need to do right by are your sons. And your son(s) will be better off with a set schedule for visitation. And that will make the decision process MUCH easier!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 7:53:24 GMT -5
Oddly, he does seem better now that he's free. He doesn't seem so desperate for interaction with DS and is easier to get along with. He has "plans" now, which are idiotic, but they give him something else to focus on. I never answered his Mom's text about the Daddy and Me class and she texted me later wondering where he was because he never called and hasn't replied to her texts. I didn't answer that one either until about 4 hours later and then I just said I had met him at the park, but had no clue what his plans were after. I figured I'd let her sweat. She let him leave with her car and she was sure it would be fine, so she shouldn't be worried right? I'm getting a lot better at disengaging when he tells me stuff now too. Latest is to cash in his IRA to get a car. Normally I'd have freaked and tried to give him advice and figure out a different way for him to get a car, (like sell the freaking MH and buy a car??), and definitely would have spoken up about the fact that he's looking at 15-17K cars, but I didn't say anything until he tried to make me feel sorry for him for not having a car. Then I had to say something about the fact that he'd trashed OUR car last fall and otherwise would have that. He said it was on it's way out anyhow, but I'm pretty sure driving it all summer with the oil light on may have contributed to the "engine ping" he speaks of.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Apr 9, 2014 8:13:51 GMT -5
I would have had to restrain myself from texting her back stating "I don't know where he is. He doesn't live here anymore."
And good. Keep on working on disengaging. I used to be friends with a guy who'd deliberately talk about stuff - sometimes it was stuff he adored and sometimes it was a trap. It was really hard to disengage at first but I had to do it for my own sanity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 8:25:46 GMT -5
I would have had to restrain myself from texting her back stating "I don't know where he is. He doesn't live here anymore." And good. Keep on working on disengaging. I used to be friends with a guy who'd deliberately talk about stuff - sometimes it was stuff he adored and sometimes it was a trap. It was really hard to disengage at first but I had to do it for my own sanity. I was reveling in the thought of her squirming in her shoes somewhere, especially after SIL sent me a Facebook message wondering if I'd heard from him because his Mom was texting her as well.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 9, 2014 10:05:39 GMT -5
Exactly. He could leave his phone anywhere, you'd think you know where it is and you'd be right. But you'd also be wrong. Because he may not be with it.
MPL, I'm not trying to pile on but I agree with this and I do not understand your objection to at least attempting to get a court-supervised visitation schedule, in writing, with approved activities on it.
My first, second, third and fourth concern in your situation would be making sure that any and all time my ex spent with my son was supervised and controlled by a strict set of rules he could get in serious trouble for violating.
No, it's not going to stop him from grabbing your son and running off, but it gives you a lot more control and leverage than you seem to have now - which is totally warranted in this situation! He's going to paint you as the bad guy no matter what you do, so you might as well do what's needed! Apart from bad-mouthing him to your sons (which you're obviously not doing and which I would continue to avoid), do whatever you need to do to protect yourself and your family.
This guy and his screwed up family will push your buttons all day long for as long as you are willing to let them.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 9, 2014 10:11:29 GMT -5
Without a specific incident is it likely that the courts will do anything else to help her against a possibility that he could kidnap his son?
Nope, and getting a supervised visitation schedule won't preclude it either - but it WILL help MPL be much less stressed and give them all a solid schedule to follow. It sounds like the disorganized, willy-nilly "let's meet up this Wednesday" pattern is stressing her out as much as anything, and I can see why. A predictable schedule is easier for a mentally ill person to follow, easier on MPL, and better for the kiddo too.
That's why I can't understand why she doesn't want to do it. If he's being nice right now, it's the BEST time to work this out. It's more likely that he'll be reasonable and less likely that he'll be vindictive if he's in one of his "nice" phases.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 9, 2014 10:17:34 GMT -5
I would have had to restrain myself from texting her back stating "I don't know where he is. He doesn't live here anymore."I would have texted back "You took him in/lent him your car. It's your problem you don't know where he's at. I'm not his keeper". Good for you though for not engaging with her at all, that's the better approach. And good for you for not leaping to his aid with the IRA/car purchase. That's the formation of a healthy boundary between you and him. Keep it up.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 9, 2014 10:34:09 GMT -5
Without a specific incident is it likely that the courts will do anything else to help her against a possibility that he could kidnap his son?
Nope, and getting a supervised visitation schedule won't preclude it either - but it WILL help MPL be much less stressed and give them all a solid schedule to follow. It sounds like the disorganized, willy-nilly "let's meet up this Wednesday" pattern is stressing her out as much as anything, and I can see why. A predictable schedule is easier for a mentally ill person to follow, easier on MPL, and better for the kiddo too. That's why I can't understand why she doesn't want to do it. If he's being nice right now, it's the BEST time to work this out. It's more likely that he'll be reasonable and less likely that he'll be vindictive if he's in one of his "nice" phases. She has contacted her lawyer to do exactly this. It wasn't on "our" time frame, but she read the replies and is working on getting this set up. My issue is when the thread denigrated into every possible worst case scenario and focusing on how many different ways her ex could run off with the kid. We went from telling her to do a,b,c, (and repeating a,b,c until it comes naturally and there are no issues with it to then move on to d,e,f) to telling her to do x,c,a,y and under no uncertain terms can you forget to do L.M.N.O.P! The language in much of this thread implies that if MPL doesn't follow our specific instructions that she is responsible for her ex's action--even though we're also telling her to not take responsibility for his actions. At least that is how I was reading it. We want her (and others in similar situations) to look at the situation logically--and that's a great goal, but just like we started off talking about most abusers don't start out swinging. Years of having your self worth widdled at takes a toll and expecting her just turn that off overnight is unrealistic. Adding in additional crisis (in what I believe was a hope to spur her into action) is going to make just about anyone shut down and not help the situation. The other thing that I was thinking about this thread last night was how crappy services for family of mental health patients is. Wouldn't it have been great if MPL had had an advocate or anyone who could have encouraged her to follow up on the restraining order last October, or what to have in place in a divorce decree when a parent is in jail and suffering from severe mental health issues. Different situation, but when my sister was in and out of hospitals and mental health facilities we weren't given any guidance or resources. Half the time the staff acted like we caused her issues, but when her stay was up they would pack her up with us as if we were fully capable of taking over for them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 10:36:23 GMT -5
Without a specific incident is it likely that the courts will do anything else to help her against a possibility that he could kidnap his son?
Nope, and getting a supervised visitation schedule won't preclude it either - but it WILL help MPL be much less stressed and give them all a solid schedule to follow. It sounds like the disorganized, willy-nilly "let's meet up this Wednesday" pattern is stressing her out as much as anything, and I can see why. A predictable schedule is easier for a mentally ill person to follow, easier on MPL, and better for the kiddo too. That's why I can't understand why she doesn't want to do it. If he's being nice right now, it's the BEST time to work this out. It's more likely that he'll be reasonable and less likely that he'll be vindictive if he's in one of his "nice" phases. Where did I say that I didn't want to do that? I very much want a set schedule and I have an appointment with my attorney next Thursday to work something out. Unfortunately, he is kind of "well, what do you want and I'll submit it" (that's probably normal). Where as I'm wanting someone else to be laying down the ground rules...I don't like being in that position. So, that's something I need to hash out with myself over the next week.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 9, 2014 10:40:05 GMT -5
I have an appointment with my attorney next Thursday to work something
Awesome! I'd try making a basic outline of what you want. He could probably help you flesh out an outline since he'd know better what you want/expect. He'll be able to better inform you what is reasonable vs what you might want to rethink b/c it might not hold up.
A lot simpler than trying to create one off the top of his head for you. I bet that could create a lot of drama with other clients. Better to follow your lead.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 10:52:31 GMT -5
Please remember that this is not a situation where I got knocked up in a drunken one night stand and now have to deal with the ass hole sperm donor. There is a lot of history and emotion involved. We were a family. It was him and I against the world for years. He is very sad now. He misses his family and he's so lost. No, I'm not cracking and welcoming him home. Mental illness or not, he made some bad choices and like Alice in Wonderland, I took the blue pill and there's no going back. But I still cry when I write this. He has a beautiful heart. It's his brain that's a bit defective.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 9, 2014 10:57:18 GMT -5
It is really hard to deal with something ugly when it comes to a person you love/loved and share a history with, go ahead and cry it's understandable. It's hard to learn to operate in the new reality. I do hope he gets his act together eventually and you two can work something out for your son.
But unfortunately no matter how hard it is you have to deal with the facts as they currently stand. Ideally none of what you're having to set up will have to be forever but better to plan for the worst while secretly hoping for the best.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 9, 2014 11:31:55 GMT -5
I'm sorry for misinterpreting and being overly harsh, MPL. I really am sorry for what you're going through and I think it's great that you're working this out with your lawyer.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 9, 2014 11:52:44 GMT -5
Please remember that this is not a situation where I got knocked up in a drunken one night stand and now have to deal with the ass hole sperm donor. There is a lot of history and emotion involved. We were a family. It was him and I against the world for years. He is very sad now. He misses his family and he's so lost. No, I'm not cracking and welcoming him home. Mental illness or not, he made some bad choices and like Alice in Wonderland, I took the blue pill and there's no going back. But I still cry when I write this. He has a beautiful heart. It's his brain that's a bit defective.
This is so hard and you're doing really well. You're figuring out a "new normal" when your world has turned inside out. You're very strong and obviously a good mom, so you will figure it out. Be nice to yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 11:55:06 GMT -5
Big kudos and hugs from "The 716"!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 9, 2014 12:39:44 GMT -5
Yeah, but it also paid for a month of our groceries... He's broke now though. Unemployment ran out two weeks ago. I don't think he realizes that yet, but I found out from social services working on the child support case. I don't even know how he's going to pay the $850 rent at the men's home. He's cashing in the IRA to get a car. I can try church. I don't go, but I still know a couple people there and they all know him. He's a lector and spends a lot of time in confession. Oh, be very, very careful with this idea if it's his church. The entire premise of a Christian church is forgiveness. Not a bad thing, but not what you need in a supervisor who you are counting on to keep your son safe.
The supervisor needs to be someone independent - meaning not from his church. Not one of his family members. Not one of his friends.
I'm going to get flamed for saying this, but whatever.
I find that a lot of people who are very religious, attend church regularly, and are active in the church are also very naïve and are easy marks for substance abusers/mentally ill/con men. Hence, they dont' make the best supervisors.
Flame away.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:41:23 GMT -5
And I know it's not logical, but there's also the issue that after all that's happened the past 12 years with me and husbands I can't help thinking that something is seriously wrong with me. My mother was divorced when I was two and then later remarried, but outside of that there is very little divorce in my family and my family is quite large. I am getting invited to a lot of 25th anniversaries among my cousins now married right out of high school or college and together forever. This feeling of inadequacy comes into play a lot with me now I'm afraid.
My SIL assures me that the only thing wrong with me is I have poor taste in men and she's probably right, but it's going to take a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:44:12 GMT -5
Staying with someone who is wrong for you is not the answer.
And I know bunches of people with broken pickers! It doesn't mean they're bad...their pickers are.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 9, 2014 12:46:34 GMT -5
And I know it's not logical, but there's also the issue that after all that's happened the past 12 years with me and husbands I can't help thinking that something is seriously wrong with me
Maybe, but it's nothing that can't be fixed. Everyone has their faults/weaknesses. Doesn't mean we can't learn from them and learn to deal with them in a healthy manner.
I tend to be a rescuer so I can be a very easy mark for people looking for a co-dependent partner/friend/relative. Didn't recognize this about myself as a teen so I got myself into some pretty hot messes. Once I DID realize what was going on I sought out some counseling and read books like Co-dependent no more.
That part of me is still there, it always will be. I'm just now able to recognize and deal with what's going on before I reach the point of no return.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:46:48 GMT -5
LOL My picker is broken. I like that. Sounds like something I can have fixed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:50:21 GMT -5
You can! ETA: the sister with the narcissistic ex got into another relationship soon after her divorce and that situation lingered on and off for 5 YEARS until she finally called it quits. She was one of those people that always had to have a boyfriend back in HS. She's been single since last May and has been doing a lot of self-exploration. She knows what she wants out of a relationship now and is willing to stay single until she gets it.
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justme
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Post by justme on Apr 9, 2014 12:55:36 GMT -5
And I know it's not logical, but there's also the issue that after all that's happened the past 12 years with me and husbands I can't help thinking that something is seriously wrong with me.
BTDT and keep going back to get more tshirts. Though in my case I've never been married (haven't even been close!) and of 10 cousins only 3 haven't been married and the other two are in committed relationships. Two of my four exes are married with kids and the third seems to treat his gfs after me better than he ever did me. I can add in a lot of other things that make me think it's me. But I have close friends and family that swear I'm not crazy, so I have to try and have faith. As for you, unless there was cheating or mental illness there before your marriage those things could happen to anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:56:59 GMT -5
MPL - You can fix it by reading CoDependent No More.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 13:00:11 GMT -5
And I know it's not logical, but there's also the issue that after all that's happened the past 12 years with me and husbands I can't help thinking that something is seriously wrong with meMaybe, but it's nothing that can't be fixed. Everyone has their faults/weaknesses. Doesn't mean we can't learn from them. I tend to be a rescuer so I can be a very easy mark for people looking for a co-dependent partner/friend/relative. Didn't recognize this about myself as a teen so I got myself into some pretty hot messes. Once I DID realize what was going on I sought out some counseling and read books like Co-dependent no more. That part of me is still there, it always will be. I'm just now able to recognize and deal with what's going on before I reach the point of no return. That played a huge part in how I handled DH's relapse. If it has happened in my early 20's the outcome may have been much different. I'm going to blame husband number one. We were together since college and he messed me up with the out of the blue, no warning "I found someone else and I'm leaving" announcement. We had like this 1950's family picture postcard life, new baby, seemed so stable and secure, then BAM! I wandered around like a lost sheep for a couple years after trying to figure out what hit me. Husband number two was young, good looking, fun, and charming enough to overlook the religious part. He snapped me out of my slump big time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 13:02:40 GMT -5
MPL - You can fix it by reading CoDependent No More. Ha! Just ordered that this morning along with "Heal Your Headache" (seriously) Maybe they're related.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 9, 2014 13:04:23 GMT -5
And I know it's not logical, but there's also the issue that after all that's happened the past 12 years with me and husbands I can't help thinking that something is seriously wrong with me. My mother was divorced when I was two and then later remarried, but outside of that there is very little divorce in my family and my family is quite large. I am getting invited to a lot of 25th anniversaries among my cousins now married right out of high school or college and together forever. This feeling of inadequacy comes into play a lot with me now I'm afraid. My SIL assures me that the only thing wrong with me is I have poor taste in men and she's probably right, but it's going to take a bit. How long was it before you married your second husband after your first left? As I remember, I was thinking not long as it should have been. I may be way off base, but I know that your first husband leaving really did some damage to your self esteem and I always got the feeling that because someone wanted to marry you after you got knocked down, you grabbed onto that with both hands. I think that what drove your decision to remarry was that you felt that anyone was better than no one. There were signs back then (when you were dating) of his unbalance, but I think you wanted someone so bad that you rationalized them away.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 13:14:11 GMT -5
And I know it's not logical, but there's also the issue that after all that's happened the past 12 years with me and husbands I can't help thinking that something is seriously wrong with me. My mother was divorced when I was two and then later remarried, but outside of that there is very little divorce in my family and my family is quite large. I am getting invited to a lot of 25th anniversaries among my cousins now married right out of high school or college and together forever. This feeling of inadequacy comes into play a lot with me now I'm afraid. My SIL assures me that the only thing wrong with me is I have poor taste in men and she's probably right, but it's going to take a bit. How long was it before you married your second husband after your first left? As I remember, I was thinking not long as it should have been. I may be way off base, but I know that your first husband leaving really did some damage to your self esteem and I always got the feeling that because someone wanted to marry you after you got knocked down, you grabbed onto that with both hands. I think that what drove your decision to remarry was that you felt that anyone was better than no one. There were signs back then (when you were dating) of his unbalance, but I think you wanted someone so bad that you rationalized them away. First husband and I separated in 2004, but didn't finalize the divorce until 2008. I was still on his insurance and he was helping me out through finishing college, getting a job. I started dating second husband in 2007 and we were married in 2009. To be honest, I wasn't totally keen on the idea of marriage when it was presented to me but he was a Catholic and it was super important to him. Plus, we both wanted a child and I was 39 so the clock was ticking there. My parents threw this huge wedding and it was incredible (I just had a courthouse wedding the first time). It was like I was given this second chance and that's what everyone there was thinking too. I still think I need to blame the broken picker over the "any man is better than no man" thing though, because I had a couple other prospects at the time and while dull and boring, in hindsight probably better marriage material.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 9, 2014 13:37:43 GMT -5
To be honest, I wasn't totally keen on the idea of marriage when it was presented to me but he was a Catholic and it was super important to him. Plus, we both wanted a child and I was 39 so the clock was ticking there.
Didn't he also pull back from all physical activities until marriage? IMO, that's almost like blackmail....here's a sample of what I've got, but you can't get any more until you marry me.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Apr 9, 2014 13:37:46 GMT -5
Personally, after reading your last few posts, I can't blame YOU for poor picking at all! Your first husband changed his mind out of the blue all on his own and your second has an unfortunate mental illness. One that you clearly didn't know about in the beginning. Bottom line is, tell yourself whatever you need to to get through this and make yourself feel better but I don't see how you could have prevented either one of these situations...
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