Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 16:31:39 GMT -5
Parents these days are going overboard with stuff like this, and it'll fall out of favor soon enough. My daughter got a perfect score on the math section of the state testing one year. Got a plaque at the school assembly and everything. Several parents asked us who her math tutor was, because they weren't happy with theirs. She's never had one. She doesn't need one. I do feel like we try and provide a learning rich environment, but that doesn't mean she doesn't play video games, watch movies, and play outside too. Kids need a balance of alone time, and interactive time. Learning time and play time. Structured learning and unstructured learning.
Oh, and I don't take any credit whatsoever for my daughter being good at math. She always has been. A kid who struggles with math can get better, but even with a tutor will probably never keep up with her. It's just the way it is. She meanwhile isn't terribly coordinated. We could hire her a personal trainer so she doesn't fall behind the other kids in that area, but we don't. No matter how much helicoptoring the parents do they'll never have a kid that's good at everything. They'll have their own strengths and weaknesses. It's life.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 16:39:00 GMT -5
Sunnyday - my Mom was a SAHP (and preferred ice cream to bon bons). Now of course I couldn't tell you how things were before we were schoolage, but I doubt it changed much from when we were really little because she had things down pretty well. She considered her "paying job" to be running the house, paying the bills, caring for the kids, and doing the route books (delivery tickets, orders and invoices) for the delivery route my Dad ran. By your statement above it appears some consider taking care of the kids as their "paying job" and everything else should be split. I'm noting that based on personal experience and observing friends that some people are capable of doing more. Dad worked (12 hours a day, 6 days a week), mowed the grass, and changed the oil on the cars. Everything else was on Mom and she managed I think pretty darn well. I'm really not trying to get the mommy wars started up, just stating that based on what I've observed that it's entirely reasonable to believe someone can care for kids and manage the house at the same time. If you want your kids to fill your time up, they will. If you want to manage things and get stuff done around the house, most people can find a way. BTW - once we started school Mom continued as a full time SAHP. She had her lunches with friends, bridge club, etc. Dad did not begrudge her any of that. When we were older (9-11) we did most of the chores ourselves so yes, there was some major deferred payback for the time she put in up front. Would you consider that unfair No, I wouldn't but I know the details now. But I think parenting has changed. You can't just let your kids out to play in the neighborhood or plop them in front of the TV like when I was a kid. Whether you agree or not with the new style of parenting or not, your (general) kids will be competing with children who are use to having their every moment utilized in some way. They have baby sensory classes now. Raising today's kids is very hands on, education-oriented, and time consuming. My toddler is in nowhere the amount of activities that other kids are in at her age, but she already takes language tutoring. She is three. I feel pressure to raise my children a certain to keep them competitive. Your mother's or my mother's style of parenting would not fly where I live and in the time I live. Structuring and ensuring the education of my children along with the regular old-style childcare is a full time job on top of my regular paid job. Just... why? I know your area is bilingual, so the language stuff might make sense if you don't speak both languages at home. But feeling pressure to have your kid utilize every moment of their time? I'd rather DD end up mediocre than shoved into a billion activities that she doesn't want to be in and that don't let her have any time to just be a kid. Let young kids do what they think is fun, for god's sake. The rest of their damn lives are going to be pressure enough.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 6, 2014 16:44:24 GMT -5
My kid's hit her head too many times for me to worry about being competitive with others. That ship has sailed. I would like to do zoo classes with her but that's mainly an excuse for me to take zoo classes.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 16:45:11 GMT -5
And I want to add: I've been a high-achieving type my whole life. I expect DD to be a high-achieving type too, most likely. And I know it's a competitve world out there, but I for real don't understand what people are competing over half the time...
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 16:48:55 GMT -5
she is in no other activity besides the third language tutoring.
She is completely bilingual now, and the third language is my mother tongue. And she speaks better in both languages than most monolingual 3-years old (sorry mama's pride!) There aren't a lot of people who speak my mother tongue here, so I'm trying to ensure that she gets contact with it. It would be a shame if my children lost my mother tongue.
I don't believe that my children should have every minute utilized, but I'm dealing with an entire generation of children who have been doing this and that since they were 2. I want to keep my children competitive.
They won't be playing hockey or tennis, but they will speak four languages fluently by the time they are 16, dammit! [insert crazy face]
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 16:49:25 GMT -5
My kid's hit her head too many times for me to worry about being competitive with others. That ship has sailed. I would like to do zoo classes with her but that's mainly an excuse for me to take zoo classes. Right. And I will probably take a dance-type class with DD next winter. But that's because she loves dancing (at 2yo) and I think it's fun to bop around with her, and it's cold here in winter so it will be good to have somewhere to get out to. Not because if I don't she won't become Barishnakov or whatever. Zoo classes sound like a blast!
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 16:53:12 GMT -5
she is in no other activity besides the third language tutoring. She is completely bilingual now, and the third language is my mother tongue. And she speaks better in both languages than most monolingual 3-years old (sorry mama's pride!) There aren't a lot of people who speak my mother tongue here, so I'm trying to ensure that she gets contact with it. It would be a shame if my children lost my mother tongue. I don't believe that my children should have every minute utilized, but I'm dealing with an entire generation of children who have been doing this and that since they were 2. I want to keep my children competitive.
They won't be playing hockey or tennis, but they will speak four languages fluently by the time they are 16, dammit! [insert crazy face] Again, I ask, why? Competitive for...? I mean, I assume you want your children to be successful in the world. Cool, most parents do. Do you think that being successful is completely dependent on the right activities/high school/college/internship/first job, etc.? Because I don't...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 6, 2014 16:58:27 GMT -5
The only person I know who had Tiger parents rebelled and ran off to Ames to become a radio DJ. He seems a lot happier nowdays than when I knew him. I thought he'd be dead from a stress induced heart attack by now.
I agree with Dark. No matter how many things I force her to do, there will be things she's not good at. There will also always be someone a few steps ahead. I'm not going to stress myself out comparing her to other kids and trying to get on their playing field.
It's not worth it, IMO.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 17:03:09 GMT -5
competitive for whatever they want.
Scholarship or programs to make a dream come true.
How many children want to be astronauts or doctors or veterinarians, you don't just become one. You need the mental chops to do it.
Unless, you have some disability or something. Anything can be achieved through hard work.
High test scores can be reached through massive test preparation.
High test scores, excellent grades=scholarships, good schools.
Good schools=better connections
It's cultural. Where I am from in the States and in my social class(growing up) we did put an enormous stock in that sort of thing.
I can't explain it. I was pushed that way. It was hard, but what was the alternative?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 17:10:00 GMT -5
competitive for whatever they want. Scholarship or programs to make a dream come true. How many children want to be astronauts or doctors or veterinarians, you don't just become one. You need the mental chops to do it. Unless, you have some disability or something. Anything can be achieved through hard work. High test scores can be reached through massive test preparation. High test scores, excellent grades=scholarships, good schools. Good schools=better connections It's cultural. Where I am from in the States and in my social class(growing up) we did put an enormous stock in that sort of thing. I can't explain it. I was pushed that way. It was hard, but what was the alternative? And what social class was that, exactly?
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 17:15:44 GMT -5
growing up: upper middle class
now: solidly middle class
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 6, 2014 17:19:51 GMT -5
growing up: upper middle class now: solidly middle class This may come across as snarky but I really don't mean it like that. If you're *only* solidly middle class now....how did all that pushing work out for you? Should your parents have pushed you harder to stay in line with their upper middle class expectations? Do you think that or something else would have made the difference for you?
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 17:20:24 GMT -5
growing up: upper middle class now: solidly middle class Gee whiz, me too. And somehow we arrived at adulthood with completely different impressions of how important those things were. Funny how that works.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 6, 2014 17:23:00 GMT -5
growing up: upper middle class now: solidly middle class This may come across as snarky but I really don't mean it like that. If you're *only* solidly middle class now....how did all that pushing work out for you? Should your parents have pushed you harder to stay in line with their upper middle class expectations? Do you think that or something else would have made the difference for you? Rae, I am so glad you asked this question, since coming from me it would DEFINITELY sound snarky.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Feb 6, 2014 17:26:05 GMT -5
I grew up working class (think "Roseanne") and am now pretty solidly middle class (at least going by income). I don't think I was involved in a single activity until junior high. My mom read to me incessantly, but that was about it. It's hard to know whether being involved in activities at a young age would have changed things, but I know that in junior high/high school when my time became more micromanaged (big push by my parents to be involved in college-friendly activities, band, AP classes, etc.) I started to push back pretty hard. I may have ended up like DQ's friend who ran away to Ames.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 17:26:09 GMT -5
growing up: upper middle class now: solidly middle class This may come across as snarky but I really don't mean it like that. If you're *only* solidly middle class now....how did all that pushing work out for you? Should your parents have pushed you harder to stay in line with their upper middle class expectations? Do you think that or something else would have made the difference for you? Have you ever read "The Millionaire Next Door"? I am the perfect example of children from well-to-do parents. I was pushed into doing something professional and prestigious. I did, and then I dropped out of graduate school. I take no offense. It's a legit question.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2014 17:31:24 GMT -5
This may come across as snarky but I really don't mean it like that. If you're *only* solidly middle class now....how did all that pushing work out for you? Should your parents have pushed you harder to stay in line with their upper middle class expectations? Do you think that or something else would have made the difference for you? Have you ever read "The Millionaire Next Door"? I am the perfect example of children from well-to-do parents. I was pushed into doing something professional and prestigious. I did, and then I dropped out of graduate school. I take no offense. It's a legit question. So in turn you are pushing your children to...?
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 17:35:16 GMT -5
growing up: upper middle class now: solidly middle class Gee whiz, me too. And somehow we arrived at adulthood with completely different impressions of how important those things were. Funny how that works. I'm glad that you can see how two people could out with very different interpretations of the exact same experience. Funny that. But I was in an rich enclave of immigrants who all pushed their kids to go to the Ivy leagues. I never said it was good, I was explaining how my background influenced my thought about keeping my kids competitive in this world, and I felt pressure to put them in ballet, gymnastics and music class. All classes that my kids are NOT in. BUT which all the kids in my neighborhood are in. Really, you would feel no pressure if little bsbound comes to you and tell you all their friends are in ballet? I place little importance I sports, but I do place enormous importance in education and the arts.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 17:40:29 GMT -5
Have you ever read "The Millionaire Next Door"? I am the perfect example of children from well-to-do parents. I was pushed into doing something professional and prestigious. I did, and then I dropped out of graduate school. I take no offense. It's a legit question. So in turn you are pushing your children to...? Yes, my one activity is pushing them. [eyeroll] I said that I don't want to put them in dance and sports, buy every one is. I don't want to trod them down to the icing rink, but I feel pressure to do things because every one else is doing it. I don't want my child to be the only one who doesn't know how to ice skate! We're in Canada for goodness sakes! I'm not saying that I will cede to pressure, I'm just saying that i feel it. I really wish you would read what I actually wrote versus interpreting things from your bias. It doesn't bother me one bit what you do with your kids.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 6, 2014 17:42:56 GMT -5
So in turn you are pushing your children to...? Yes, my one activity is pushing them. [eyeroll] I said that I don't want to put them in dance and sports, buy every one is. I don't want to trod them down to the icing rink, but I feel pressure to do things because every one else is doing it. I don't want my child to be the only one who doesn't know how to ice skate! We're in Canada for goodness sakes! I'm not saying that I will cede to pressure, I'm just saying that i feel it. I really wish you would read what I actually wrote versus interpreting things from your bias. It doesn't bother me one bit what you do with your kids. I completely get what you are saying. My reasons might be a bit different, but I understand not wanting to have your kid to be the "only who is not *something*" And since I already established that I am nosy - I am curious is to what is your mother's tongue.
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Sunnyday
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Post by Sunnyday on Feb 6, 2014 17:44:06 GMT -5
For heaven's sake, my child is in one activity: tutoring in my mother tongue.
It's really horrible that I'm forcing my child to practice her mother's mother tongue with a stranger who plays with her for one hour a week in my mother tongue.
Should I start saving for therapy now???
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 6, 2014 17:44:36 GMT -5
I want my kids in every activity under the sun so I get that. I have no idea how my parents afforded everything they did for me, but I tried everything, and it was awesome. Right now I've got each kid in 1 activity, but have a pretty extensive list of things I want to add as time and money allow.
I don't see it as much of pushing my kids to be competitive, just that I want them exposed to everything I was growing up and more. I want them to love swimming and horse back riding, and camp, and play team sports even if they suck at it, and learn piano and another instrument, and spanish.
Rainyday--what is your 'mother tongue'?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 17:46:24 GMT -5
None whatsoever. I made more than several of our daughter's friends parents, despite them being an average of ten years my senior. I'm a white trash high school and college dropout with a GED. Some of their friends are second and third generation middle class folks that got family money to help buy the house. They went to the "good" schools, mom and dad paid for college, I'm sure they were in all kinds of enriching activities as kids that I never had. Look where they are now, living next to a young dropout that out earned them, had kids as a teenager, and my kids outscore theirs on tests. All that pushing and pressure didn't get them anywhere, although some of them developed drug and alcohol habits pretty early as a result.
By today's standards I grew up practically wild. My mom worked late. I was babysat by neighborhood teenagers. As soon as my older sister was about 11 or 12, so I was 10 or 11, the five of us would be home alone, with my sister and I watching the younger three. I played sports starting in junior high, but just the school teams and only what was in season. No select or travel teams. Our summers were spent at the pool or the park. My mom would drop us off and come back at closing time to pick us up.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 6, 2014 17:51:23 GMT -5
None whatsoever. I made more than several of our daughter's friends parents, despite them being an average of ten years my senior. I'm a white trash high school and college dropout with a GED. Some of their friends are second and third generation middle class folks that got family money to help buy the house. They went to the "good" schools, mom and dad paid for college, I'm sure they were in all kinds of enriching activities as kids that I never had. Look where they are now, living next to a young dropout that out earned them, had kids as a teenager, and my kids outscore theirs on tests. All that pushing and pressure didn't get them anywhere, although some of them developed drug and alcohol habits pretty early as a result. By today's standards I grew up practically wild. My mom worked late. I was babysat by neighborhood teenagers. As soon as my older sister was about 11 or 12, so I was 10 or 11, the five of us would be home alone, with my sister and I watching the younger three. I played sports starting in junior high, but just the school teams and only what was in season. No select or travel teams. Our summers were spent at the pool or the park. My mom would drop us off and come back at closing time to pick us up. Yes, but for every one of you, how many are just washed out drunks who can't keep a job? Sometimes pushing works, sometimes it doesn't. Some kids grow up OK even without much parent involvement and some don't. Also, your girls are still young. You sound very smug in many of your posts about them - how they are smart and responsible and blah blah blah. I don't wish anything bad for you or your family, but you might want to hold off on that bit of bragging, bc you never know what can happen.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 17:56:28 GMT -5
Beats me, but that happens to rich kids too. And the ones who do keep jobs choose low paying ones pretty frequently. I saw an article with stats on the people majoring in social work broken down by income level of the household they grew up in. Most of them were rich kids. Poor kids know that social workers don't make diddly, and probably have the same depressing memories I do about having to go into the social services office. There were several majors broken out that way. People with family money are the ones majoring in underwater basket weaving type degree, not poor kids. They're more likely to take very straight forwardly applicable degrees. The article speculated that part of it is that they don't have as much experience with college educated people and the types of jobs they do with different degrees, so they tend to stick to stuff that's very easy to understand how you apply it post graduation.
They're far from perfect, and I'm fully aware of that, but we've been blessed so far.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 6, 2014 18:00:07 GMT -5
Beats me, but that happens to rich kids too. And the ones who do keep jobs choose low paying ones pretty frequently. I saw an article with stats on the people majoring in social work broken down by income level of the household they grew up in. Most of them were rich kids. Poor kids know that social workers don't make diddly, and probably have the same depressing memories I do about having to go into the social services office. There were several majors broken out that way. People with family money are the ones majoring in underwater basket weaving type degree, not poor kids. They're more likely to take very straight forwardly applicable degrees. The article speculated that part of it is that they don't have as much experience with college educated people and the types of jobs they do with different degrees, so they tend to stick to stuff that's very easy to understand how you apply it post graduation. They're far from perfect, and I'm fully aware of that, but we've been blessed so far. It's not often than YM gives me a warm fuzzy for being poor. Thanks Dark!
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 6, 2014 18:04:21 GMT -5
But that's my point - anything can happen to any kid, from any kind of family. You made it sound like pushing your kid is completely useless bc YOU ended up doing well without it. But what does that prove?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 18:08:44 GMT -5
It proves that how a kid turns out is more nature than nurture. No matter how much you push you can't get a square shaped kid to fit comfortably in a round hole. A kid with internal drive will go places, a kid without it won't. It doesn't matter how many fancy summer camps you send them to, whether they go to public or private school, or how they spend their afternoons as children.
Too much pushing and structure can ruin whatever internal drive the kid has, because anything they're interested in becomes work instead of remaining play. Motivation is a tricky thing. Too much outside pressure can turn something we love into something we dread. Do that to a kid often enough and they stop loving anything. They lose the internal drive to want anything because mom and dad are going to ruin it anyway. It can be a recipe for a kid with some pretty serious emotional and trust issues.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Feb 6, 2014 18:11:07 GMT -5
It proves that how a kid turns out is more nature than nurture. No matter how much you push you can't get a square shaped kid to fit comfortably in a round hole. A kid with internal drive will go places, a kid without it won't. It doesn't matter how many fancy summer camps you send them to, whether they go to public or private school, or how they spend their afternoons as children. Right. So, does that mean that we should all go hands-off, since clearly none of what we, as parents, do matters?
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Feb 6, 2014 18:24:10 GMT -5
I didn't say nothing we do or don't do matters. I said you can't force a kid to be motivated. To answer the first part of your question, abso-freaking-lutely! Most parents these days are way too hands on, and involved, with their kids. They can't learn to be independent if you never give them a moment to themselves, their own decisions to make, and some say in their own schedule or lack thereof.
My two favorite parenting philosophies are tiger mom and free range kids. The two don't seem compatible at all, but you have to realize they both have a point, and do both in moderation. My kids absolutely need unstructured time to do whatever the fuck they want, within reason. If they want to spend it building rockets in the garage, cool. If they want to spend it vegging on the couch playing video games, cool. At the same time, school comes first. Their job right now is to do well in school. They're both capable of being straight A students, so that's what we expect. Bs and Cs aren't good enough.
If they choose to do activities, whether they're sports, or academic stuff like math club or debate, we expect them to put forth their best effort in those activities. If they're behind they need to work that much harder to catch up. That's the way life is. You can do anything you set your mind too, but it's going to take busting your ass to get there.
There are three kinds of people on the planet. The first group lacks the imagination to realize something is possible, or they're too afraid of possible failure to give it a try. The second group isn't willing to put in the work to make their dreams a reality. They realize on some intellectual level that they could do it, but it's not worth rocking the boat over. The third group has the vision, the risk tolerance, and the grit to dream big and actually get there. Every parent wants their kid to be in the third group, but I don't think enough of them step back and ask themselves if their parenting philosophies really encourage all three traits. Or maybe they disagree with me on the traits necessary in the first place. Who knows.
I'm a white trash high school dropout that had kids at 18. I sure as hell don't have all the answers. I'm making this shit up as I go along.
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