Judge rules baker must bake wedding cakes for gays

[mmhmm]

Dec 10, 2013 16:04:51 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Dec 10, 2013 15:43:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

I would agree also about sexuality. But we are talking about marriage, not sexuality.

True.  But?  When I went in and ordered my wedding cake, my best friend - my Maid of Honor - went with me.  My soon-to-be husband was not at all interested in going.  Even though there were two females there ordering the cake, I did not feel the need to say, "I would like to order a cake for a HETEROSEXUAL wedding."  Why does anybody feel the need to announce they are ordering a cake for a homosexual wedding?  That was my point.  Just order the friggin cake and keep your private life private.

Do we know, for sure, these two said anything about it being a reception for a homosexual wedding?  Did the baker ask them whose wedding it was for?  Do we actually know how the baker came to know it was for a homosexual wedding reception?  I haven't kept up with this story so I don't know the answer to that.

[Artemis Windsong]

The wise cake baker puts a copy of the DVD Waiting in a subtle place in his store.

Or perhaps a chocolate pie like the one from The Help.

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

True. But? When I went in and ordered my wedding cake, my best friend - my Maid of Honor - went with me. My soon-to-be husband was not at all interested in going. Even though there were two females there ordering the cake, I did not feel the need to say, "I would like to order a cake for a HETEROSEXUAL wedding." Why does anybody feel the need to announce they are ordering a cake for a homosexual wedding? That was my point. Just order the friggin cake and keep your private life private.

Isn't that what happened in this case? Two people of the same sex walk into a bakery to order a wedding cake for a wedding/reception.

I highly doubt they went strolling into the establishment shouting their sexual orientation.

Unless the couple tells the baker the cake is for a "gay" wedding, they (the bakers) would be making their refusal to bake it on assumptions - which is the wrong thing to do. Even if they knew the cake was for a "gay" wedding, they could have come up with a more plausible reason for refusing to do so - over-booked, etc.

Instead they went public with their bigotry which was the wrong thing to do.

If I knew that couple, I'd be strongly encouraging them to shop elsewhere instead of taking the Gov't imposed ruling to bake them a cake.

I can only imagine how horribly it would turn out. Nothing like a cake being picked up at the last minute that's a total mess.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 10, 2013 22:47:04 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

True. But? When I went in and ordered my wedding cake, my best friend - my Maid of Honor - went with me. My soon-to-be husband was not at all interested in going. Even though there were two females there ordering the cake, I did not feel the need to say, "I would like to order a cake for a HETEROSEXUAL wedding." Why does anybody feel the need to announce they are ordering a cake for a homosexual wedding? That was my point. Just order the friggin cake and keep your private life private.

Isn't that what happened in this case? Two people of the same sex walk into a bakery to order a wedding cake for a wedding/reception.

I highly doubt they went strolling into the establishment shouting their sexual orientation.

Unless the couple tells the baker the cake is for a "gay" wedding, they (the bakers) would be making their refusal to bake it on assumptions - which is the wrong thing to do. Even if they knew the cake was for a "gay" wedding, they could have come up with a more plausible reason for refusing to do so - over-booked, etc.

Instead they went public with their bigotry which was the wrong thing to do.

If I knew that couple, I'd be strongly encouraging them to shop elsewhere instead of taking the Gov't imposed ruling to bake them a cake.

I can only imagine how horribly it would turn out. Nothing like a cake being picked up at the last minute that's a total mess.

The bakery/cake incident happened last year.  These two guys are probably not still waiting for this bakery to make them a wedding cake.  They have more than likely moved long on.

In the opening post link, there is a separate link to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission (CCRC)'s investigation of the incident and their findings.  The link can be found in the 9th paragraph. 

Here is the link again if you wish to read the CCRC's findings.  Judge Orders Colorado Bakery to Cater for Same-Sex Weddings

I would like to know how long ago (time wise and in what state) did Green Eyed Lady (GEL (Green Eyed Lady is so formal)) and her female friend walk into the bakery and ask for a wedding cake.  It may have been before gay marriages were even allowed in any state.  If it was a while back and in a state where same-sex marriage was/is illegal, it would be safe for the bakery to assume the cake was for a heterosexual couple.

[EVT1]

Dec 10, 2013 22:33:14 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Dec 10, 2013 16:04:51 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

True.  But?  When I went in and ordered my wedding cake, my best friend - my Maid of Honor - went with me.  My soon-to-be husband was not at all interested in going.  Even though there were two females there ordering the cake, I did not feel the need to say, "I would like to order a cake for a HETEROSEXUAL wedding."  Why does anybody feel the need to announce they are ordering a cake for a homosexual wedding?  That was my point.  Just order the friggin cake and keep your private life private.

Do we know, for sure, these two said anything about it being a reception for a homosexual wedding?  Did the baker ask them whose wedding it was for?  Do we actually know how the baker came to know it was for a homosexual wedding reception?  I haven't kept up with this story so I don't know the answer to that.

That's what I wanted to know- how did it come up.  Not that I think it is anymore a defensible position if the two men rolled in wearing  matching 'I'm with him' t-shirts.

Also I doubt any gay people will ever shop there- so the owner really wins- no more gay customers.  I call that a bad business decision.

Next up- some self-righteous jackhole refuses to sell a home, mattress, wedding ring, flowers (done already), rent a limo, honeymoon suite- or even hotel room (done already), to a gay couple.

With all that is wrong with the world some people have the time to be outraged about some same sex couples that found some happiness.  Maybe that's the problem- people with a problem with these folks should probably look inward. Even if one is a very pious follower of some religion- I don't recall any of them that require their members to shun or shit on other people.

 

[mmhmm]

Dec 11, 2013 0:38:29 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Dec 10, 2013 22:33:14 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Do we know, for sure, these two said anything about it being a reception for a homosexual wedding?  Did the baker ask them whose wedding it was for?  Do we actually know how the baker came to know it was for a homosexual wedding reception?  I haven't kept up with this story so I don't know the answer to that.

That's what I wanted to know- how did it come up.  Not that I think it is anymore a defensible position if the two men rolled in wearing  matching 'I'm with him' t-shirts.

Also I doubt any gay people will ever shop there- so the owner really wins- no more gay customers.  I call that a bad business decision.

Next up- some self-righteous jackhole refuses to sell a home, mattress, wedding ring, flowers (done already), rent a limo, honeymoon suite- or even hotel room (done already), to a gay couple.

With all that is wrong with the world some people have the time to be outraged about some same sex couples that found some happiness.  Maybe that's the problem- people with a problem with these folks should probably look inward. Even if one is a very pious follower of some religion- I don't recall any of them that require their members to shun or shit on other people.

 

I couldn't agree more, EVT.  You're preaching to the choir here.  I'm not the least concerned with what other people do in the privacy of their own homes as long as they're not hurting anyone else.  I feel pretty confident these guys didn't go prancing into the bakery in drag, lisping and flaming.  I'm also pretty sure they didn't walk into the bakery and announce:  "Hi, there!  We're two gay guys who go married and we're gonna have a reception!  Can you make us a cake with a big penis on it?"  I'm betting none of us here has the foggiest idea how the bakery got wind of the fact that these two guys were gays who were going to have a wedding reception.  I'm also betting none of us here have any idea how the two gentlemen were treated by the bakery staff once it was decided, or said, or guessed, or whatever, they were having that wedding reception as a married, gay couple.

[Shooby]

Are they required to bake penis cakes if someone requests one? If not why not?

[zibazinski]

Probably when asking for two men on the wedding top layer might have been the first clue. Btw, gay places do discriminate against straight people. B and B in key west and one in st. Petersburg will not rent to a straight couple. Nothing done about them. No lawsuits by straits but then again, it's only discrimination if the shoe is on the other foot.

[thyme4change]

Dec 10, 2013 21:21:45 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 10, 2013 15:52:44 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

You could take the chance of changing your recipe and it tastes bad.  That isn't against the law - I've had plenty of bad food at restaurants.  Spitting in someone's food is kind of dumb, because likely it won't cause any problems (if the spitter is healthy, then it isn't much worse than serious french kissing.)  But you would really damage a party by putting half the sugar as necessary into the wedding cake.

If you baked the cake publicly kicking, screaming and angry you had to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding, and only put in half the sugar or worse, waaaaay too much salt, there might be a case for at least small claims court (if not more).

Very true.  But we are back to the question - why would you want someone who doesn't want to bake for you bake such an important cake.  Plenty of idiots would rather bankrupt themselves than actually treat people well.  Why take the chance that your guy will care more about his reputation as a baker and less about his reputation as a "Christian" and possibly end up with a lousy cake, and then you have to fuss with demanding your money and going to court to try and prove that it was intentional?

[thyme4change]

I highly doubt they went strolling into the establishment shouting their sexual orientation.

I wouldn't "highly doubt" it.  There is a great possibility these two were very publicly excited about the new legal status of their relationship, and shared "This is for our wedding" and then gave each other googly eyes, and held hands or threw their arms around each other.  That is how I was when I got married, and I was nothing unusual - 20-something white girl marrying a 20-something white guy...boring!  For the most part, you would have to be a pretty big idiot to not take an educated guess.


Plus, wasn't this two guys?  Sure, a girl might bring her best friend to a lot of wedding planning, but when was the last time you saw a groom and his best friend say "oooo - let us take care of the cake, sweety, don't worry about a thing."  And then bride was all "okay."

[zibazinski]

[Tennesseer]

thyme4change - I don't believe in this case the two guys still wanted the baker to make the cake after his refusal. The two guys reported the discrimination to the ACLU which filed a complaint on their behalf with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission (CCRC). By the time all this hit the news, I would imagine no same-sex couple in Colorado would want to use this bakery for a reception after an out of state legal marriage ceremony or reception for a legal civil union in Colorado.

Of couse this bakery now has a target on its back and you may find some gay or straight asshat looking to cause trouble stick it to the bakery by requesting a cake for a same-sex wedding ceremony. The bakery may yet again refuse, the gay or straight asshat goes to the ACLU and CCRC and this time the bakery gets fined (or worse). If the bakery had simply followed the law, it would not find itself now in this position.

[thyme4change]

Dec 11, 2013 8:31:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

thyme4change - I don't believe in this case the two guys still wanted the baker to make the cake after his refusal. The two guys reported the discrimination to the ACLU which filed a complaint on their behalf with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission (CCRC). By the time all this hit the news, I would imagine no same-sex couple in Colorado would want to use this bakery for a reception after an out of state legal marriage ceremony or reception for a legal civil union in Colorado.

Of couse this bakery now has a target on its back and you may find some gay or straight asshat looking to cause trouble stick it to the bakery by requesting a cake for a same-sex wedding ceremony. The bakery may yet again refuse, the gay or straight asshat goes to the ACLU and CCRC and this time the bakery gets fined (or worse). If the bakery had simply followed the law, it would not find itself now in this position.

Is any of this new information?  I'm not sure how this relates to where we are in the conversation right now.

You are correct that if a gay couple does any research, they will keep this bakery off their list of potential vendors.  The ruling is a moral victory that no bakery can blatantly refuse service without legal consequences.  But, that doesn't mean that Joe Christian down the street won't decide that he should alter a recipe for two people who come in and don't know that asshat bakery owner thinks he gets to decide how everyone should live.

[zibazinski]

Yup.  Pyrrhic victory.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 11, 2013 8:39:08 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Dec 11, 2013 8:31:16 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

thyme4change - I don't believe in this case the two guys still wanted the baker to make the cake after his refusal. The two guys reported the discrimination to the ACLU which filed a complaint on their behalf with the Colorado Civil Rights Commission (CCRC). By the time all this hit the news, I would imagine no same-sex couple in Colorado would want to use this bakery for a reception after an out of state legal marriage ceremony or reception for a legal civil union in Colorado.

Of couse this bakery now has a target on its back and you may find some gay or straight asshat looking to cause trouble stick it to the bakery by requesting a cake for a same-sex wedding ceremony. The bakery may yet again refuse, the gay or straight asshat goes to the ACLU and CCRC and this time the bakery gets fined (or worse). If the bakery had simply followed the law, it would not find itself now in this position.

Is any of this new information?  I'm not sure how this relates to where we are in the conversation right now.

You are correct that if a gay couple does any research, they will keep this bakery off their list of potential vendors.  The ruling is a moral victory that no bakery can blatantly refuse service without legal consequences.  But, that doesn't mean that Joe Christian down the street won't decide that he should alter a recipe for two people who come in and don't know that asshat bakery owner thinks he gets to decide how everyone should live.

We can be anywhere we want in this conversation.  It was mentioned on page one about making a shitty cake In spite.  Similar comments are still being made on page four.   I could say the same thing:  I'm not sure how this relates to where we are in the conversation now.

[Deleted]

My cake was made by one of my sister's MIL so I have no experience ordering a wedding cake. Do they ask who the bride and groom are when you order?

Maybe that's how it came about:
Baker:  "Bride's Name?"
Groom: "Actually, there's going to be two Grooms!"

And you go from there....

[thyme4change]

Dec 11, 2013 8:46:54 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Yup.  Pyrrhic victory.

I wouldn't say that.  It is a very important victory, because even though there are consequences and pitfalls for this first wave of gay marriages, in a generation or so it will all blow over - just like the scandal of interracial marriages.  

In reality, most couples planning their wedding won't walk into any ol' random bakery and order a cake.  If they walk into a place that got good reviews from their cousin, but they go in and get stink eye from the owner, they may go down the street to their second choice.  And bakeries that are gay friendly will get posted on internet boards, and word of mouth within the gay community will make it a preferred vendor for gay couples.  

[Tennesseer]

zibazinski said:  "Yup.  Pyrrhic victory."

I am sure there were some folks who said it was a Pyrrhic victory for black bus riders in the South who eere finally able to ride in the front of the bus.  The black bus riders were already able to ride on the bus-just in the back of it.  They had nothing to complain about in the first place.  Whiney black people.

[Tennesseer]

deminmaine - FYI.

zibazinski said:  "Probably when asking for two men on the wedding top layer might have been the first clue. Btw, gay places do discriminate against straight people. B and B in key west and one in st. Petersburg will not rent to a straight couple. Nothing done about them. No lawsuits by straits but then again, it's only discrimination if the shoe is on the other foot."

Florida's Public Accomodation laws state:  "It is against the law for an individual to be denied access or to receive poor service or lesser quality accommodations because of his or her race, color, national origin, sex, disability, familial status or religion."

Florida Public Accommodations Law

Colorado has sexual orientation in their Public Accomodation law.  Florida does not.

Educate yourself.  

[zibazinski]

No issue, plenty of other places to rent that don't discriminate. 

[Tennesseer]

Dec 11, 2013 10:10:17 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

No issue, plenty of other places to rent that don't discriminate. 

Sure you have ìssues with ìt.  Otherwise you would not have brought ìt up.  

[workpublic]

I would probably say "thanks, but no thanks".

cause you're not a militant hetero sexual with a chip on your shoulder

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Bc if I waited for my husband to open mail, it would still be there since the day I met him

Are we married to the same man?

[billisonboard]

Dec 11, 2013 6:23:46 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Are they required to bake penis cakes if someone requests one? If not why not?

The issue is discrimination against an individual of a protected class. If they do not bake penis cakes for anyone, they would not be discriminating against anyone. If they will bake a penis cake as a grooms cake for a straight groom, they can not refuse to bake one for others.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 11, 2013 10:27:35 GMT -5 workpublic said:

I would probably say "thanks, but no thanks".

cause you're not a militant hetero sexual with a chip on your shoulder

Or he just doesn't want to hear sexual moaning and 'yes, Yes, Yes!' and 'Oh God!' all night long.

[Tennesseer]

Dec 11, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Bc if I waited for my husband to open mail, it would still be there since the day I met him

Are we married to the same man?

Do you open what appear to be home bills addressed to your spouse or do you also open what appears to be personal letters too?   

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Who gets personal letters in the mail anymore?  So the answer to that is no.  I don't open his bday card if that's what you're asking.

Otherwise I open just about everything because more than once he's almost missed an important deadline because he leaves his mail unopened on the table.  Almost lost $3k of his old 401(k) to penalties because he only had 30 days to roll it over.

[mmhmm]

Dec 11, 2013 7:16:20 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Probably when asking for two men on the wedding top layer might have been the first clue. Btw, gay places do discriminate against straight people. B and B in key west and one in st. Petersburg will not rent to a straight couple. Nothing done about them. No lawsuits by straits but then again, it's only discrimination if the shoe is on the other foot.

Depends on the state, I guess.  This happened in Colorado, not Florida.

[mmhmm]

Dec 11, 2013 7:16:20 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Probably when asking for two men on the wedding top layer might have been the first clue. Btw, gay places do discriminate against straight people. B and B in key west and one in st. Petersburg will not rent to a straight couple. Nothing done about them. No lawsuits by straits but then again, it's only discrimination if the shoe is on the other foot.

"Probably" doesn't cut it, zib.  We don't know.  We can guess, but that doesn't do a darned thing.  We still don't know.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Dec 11, 2013 10:36:27 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Dec 11, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

Bc if I waited for my husband to open mail, it would still be there since the day I met him

Are we married to the same man?

Do you open what appear to be home bills addressed to your spouse or do you also open what appears to be personal letters too?   

Home bills/notices.  Personal looking mail gets left for him.  And when my DH accidentally opened a b-day card of mine earlier this year, he apologized.  Household stuff needs to get handled, personal stuff (including IRA/retirement stuff) gets left for whomever's name is on it to deal with it.