Mean kids - what would you have done?

[swamp]

Yes, DH fears the boys will be meaner to DS if they know he has autism which is why he's never told anyone about it. I disagree - the kids perceive DS is different even if they don't have a label. It can't possibly get worse than it is.  

The kids know he is autistic, they probably just don't know the name of what it is.

[formerroomate99]

Aug 1, 2013 11:16:53 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

Aug 1, 2013 11:02:41 GMT -5 sheilaincali said:

Kids do all sorts of underhanded things when they think they can get away with it. It would be impossible for the troop leader to be able to see every single thing that goes on every single minute of the day. 

I'm assuming that your DH didn't want to further embarrass your son by making a big deal about it in the moment.  It would have further ostracized your son and most likely the attention would have made him even more uncomfortable.  He probably should have pulled the leader and adults off to the side and said something rather than wait until after the whole thing was over. 

If my kid was acting like a little shit I'd want to know.

If this was a one-time occurrence I would agree. But SK said it's happened at every meeting she's been to (and most likely the ones she hasn't). Fine that a leader can't see everything that goes on, but it stands to reason that she should have witnessed SOMETHING at some point.

I'm sure she's wittnessed something.  But there is a difference between wittnessing one or two isolated events or a string of mild events and witnessing a pattern of severe group cruelty, and in this lady's defense, once she was made aware of it, she took pretty strong action with her kid. 

[alabamagal]

I think you did the right thing.  I think the incident should have been addressed immediately, but that didn't happen.  You seem concerned that the troop leader was overly strict with her punishment, but I wouldn't worry about that.  I wouldn't address it further with cub scout leadership unless something else happens

[Formerly SK]

Aug 1, 2013 11:44:52 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

The troop leader is very driven - her standards for her kids are achievement based rather than character based. She proudly considers her son a leader (of course, so was Hitler ). I honestly think she doesn't see his meanness because he swims competitively and gets good grades.

But you also said that the troop leader severely punished her son when you reported his actions.  If she didn't care about this behavior, you would have gotten a pat on the head and be told 'boys will be boys'. 

I think the issue is I have to figure out how to defend against bullying. Something may seem correct on paper but in the "real world" it could exacerbate a situation. Unfortunately since DS doesn't perceive things, I find it hard to step in. If DH hadn't told me about the incident I never would have known (and boy does he regret telling me about it).

If you find out how to stop bullying, please let the rest of us know.  Not many parents are ok with their kids being bullied, but it still happens everywhere every day. 

Well, I don't think she doesn't care about his behavior...just that she doesn't see it because she focuses on other things.  Sort of like parents may not see a drug/alcohol/cutting issue because their child is doing so well at school/sports (the typical barometer of a "successful" child). 

And again, it's not that I don't think the punishment isn't appropriate, it's just so extreme compared to my family norms.  But then, my kids are mild mannered and very obedient.  I worry about the real world ramifications once the kids are back in school if the kid now hates DS with a passion, KWIM?

I don't know how to stop bullying.  Honestly I still wonder a bit if I screwed up because ultimately I want DS to be left alone.  I suspect this boy will continue to be mean and we'll have to quit scouts.  I try to explain explicitly to DS that the boy can't be trusted (he frequently manipulates DS), he should stay away from him, etc but ultimately DS isn't sophisticated enough to handle it.  And ultimately this is my problem with my son as it's not like this kid is the only kid in the world that will mistreat him.  I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with this stuff.

[Angel!]

Aug 1, 2013 12:04:11 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Aug 1, 2013 11:16:53 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

If this was a one-time occurrence I would agree. But SK said it's happened at every meeting she's been to (and most likely the ones she hasn't). Fine that a leader can't see everything that goes on, but it stands to reason that she should have witnessed SOMETHING at some point.

I'm sure she's wittnessed something.  But there is a difference between wittnessing one or two isolated events or a string of mild events and witnessing a pattern of severe group cruelty, and in this lady's defense, once she was made aware of it, she took pretty strong action with her kid. 

She was probably horrified.  I would be, I don't find that punishment over the top at all.  I am guessing the kid was smart enough to really do anything to overt in front of Mom, so she probably really did not realize how bad the situation had become.

[whoisjohngalt]

I don't know if this is allowed, but now that I think about it - I would have talked to the kid himself.

Here is the message I would have tried to send:

I KNOW what you are doing, you can lie all your want, I am not your mother, I am not going to punish you, but I do want you to stop this kind of BS before it does get to your mother, the Scout people or principal (when in school).  Just bc my son doesn't see how mean you are, doesn't mean I don't, so before your consequences get too harsh - STOP!

[formerroomate99]

SK- Ohhh hot topic for me. First you need to talk with your den leader one on one. He/She is supposed to be teaching the boys about being respectful and tolerant. Clearly that is missing.

They can teach until they are blue in the face, it doesn't mean that these boys will listen.  I went to a Christian school.  The teachers and administration did their best to instill kindness and tolerance.  And obviously, the parents supposidly did care about building their children's character, or they could have sent their kids to the snotty prep school down the road.  But when my father was dying, I wasn't much fun to be around and was easily provoked.  The little shits in my class took full advantage of this and there wasn't a damn thing the teachers could do about it.  I remember coming back from the bathroom after a particularly cruel incident and hearing my teacher screaming at the top of her lungs 'Why for the love of pete do you guys have to be so cruel!?'  She didn't know what to do any more than I did.   

[Abby Normal]

I don't know how to stop bullying. Honestly I still wonder a bit if I screwed up because ultimately I want DS to be left alone. I suspect this boy will continue to be mean and we'll have to quit scouts. I try to explain explicitly to DS that the boy can't be trusted (he frequently manipulates DS), he should stay away from him, etc but ultimately DS isn't sophisticated enough to handle it. And ultimately this is my problem with my son as it's not like this kid is the only kid in the world that will mistreat him. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with this stuff.

A big part of cub scouts is character development and respectful relationships.   What your describing should not be happening within scouts.  Outside, yes you will have to figure out a way to deal with bullying. Inside, it should not happen- period.

We held our kids to very high standards ( FYI ours was not a church group) and we used the phrase "conduct unbecoming of a scout" to point out anytime one of the boys was out of line. But we had very involved parents.  

Try going to a few meetings and point out the behavior to the leader when it happens.  If she/he really wasn't paying attention, then maybe the issue will start to resolve itself.

[skubikky]

Aug 1, 2013 11:31:33 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

The troop leader is very driven - her standards for her kids are achievement based rather than character based.  She proudly considers her son a leader (of course, so was Hitler ).  I honestly think she doesn't see his meanness because he swims competitively and gets good grades.

   '
Excuse me?   You're comparing an 8 year old bully to the perpetrator of the Holocaust?  Really? 

[Deleted]

My 8 year old self who was on the receiving end of an 8 year old bully wouldn't think she was that far off. 

[mmhmm]

And ultimately this is my problem with my son as it's not like this kid is the only kid in the world that will mistreat him. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with this stuff.

One thing you really need, IMO, is backup!  Your DH needs to become engaged and proactive in helping your son to realize his full potential and learn how to cope with and divert cruelty. Those aren't easy lessons for anyone to learn, but they're absolutely necessary.  It sounds like your DH deals with these issues by pretending they don't exist instead of actively facing them.  He's learned an unworkable reaction to the problem of cruelty and needs to learn to be more proactive for the sake of your son.  DH is an adult and fully capable of modifying his behaviors to achieve more positive results.  Personally, I'd start by sitting him down and having a talk about it.  If he needs therapeutic help, it's available.  Assertiveness training can do wonders!

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

And again, it's not that I don't think the punishment isn't appropriate, it's just so extreme compared to my family norms

Boy you'd really dislike my reaction then.  After the urge to rub my kid's face in the pee to see how he likes it wore off eletronics wouldn't be the only thing to disappear.  My kid better be quaking in his boots at the mere thought of picking on that kid again after I'm done with him.

[Miss Tequila]

Holy shit...I would have flipped a fucking gasket if that were my child...

I'm not the best example...some rotten fucker made fun of my daughter's speech at the park many years ago (she might have been 4 or so)...I said, "someone she will speak but you will always be fat and ugly"...not one of my finer moments!  But I can't imagine what I would have done had they put my dd in a puddle of piss...

I would raise holy hell with all of the parents of the chiildren involved...I don't by the "kids will be kids" bullshit. 

Oh..just a fwe weeks ago I had her at the park and she wanted to play some game with two little boys who were there.  They were running from her and making snide comments (she didin't know it but I heard it).  I called her over to me (managed to hold my tongue this time) and I put her on this zip line type thing (not really a zip line, but the kids have to climb up some steps and reach out and grab this handle and it zips you to the other end)...unless you are tall enough someone has to bring the handle over for the kids.  The kids fat ass, lazy grandma was sitting a few feet away (she had to have heard what they were saying, which is what pissed me off)...anyway, the kid couldn't reach and asked me to get it for him.  I said, "remember when DD wanted to play just now and you ran and made nasty little remarks...I don't help mean kids so get it yourself"....the grandma looked at me and I was praying she would say something but she didn't.

[Formerly SK]

Aug 1, 2013 12:24:38 GMT -5 skubikky said:

Aug 1, 2013 11:31:33 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

The troop leader is very driven - her standards for her kids are achievement based rather than character based.  She proudly considers her son a leader (of course, so was Hitler ).  I honestly think she doesn't see his meanness because he swims competitively and gets good grades.

   '
Excuse me?   You're comparing an 8 year old bully to the perpetrator of the Holocaust?  Really? 

No....good grief.

My point is the trait of being a leader is amoral.  It's doesn't mean you are good or bad, just that you have a personality type that draws people to follow you.  So when the mom (proudly) told DH her son is a leader, I was referencing that being a leader isn't something to be proud of as there are many leaders (ie Hitler) who have led people to do bad things.  Now, if your child leads people to do GOOD things, that is something to be proud of.  But generally a leader?  Who knows whether that's good or bad?

[formerroomate99]

Aug 1, 2013 12:24:38 GMT -5 skubikky said:

Aug 1, 2013 11:31:33 GMT -5 Formerly SK said:

The troop leader is very driven - her standards for her kids are achievement based rather than character based.  She proudly considers her son a leader (of course, so was Hitler ).  I honestly think she doesn't see his meanness because he swims competitively and gets good grades.

   '
Excuse me?   You're comparing an 8 year old bully to the perpetrator of the Holocaust?  Really? 

Yeah, I can't get past the comment that the troop leader doesn't care if her kid is a jerk, and then turn around and complain that her son's punishment for being a jerk was too severe.  You can't have it both ways. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I said, "remember when DD wanted to play just now and you ran and made nasty little remarks...I don't help mean kids so get it yourself"....

Awesome.

[Miss Tequila]

Aug 1, 2013 12:33:50 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I said, "remember when DD wanted to play just now and you ran and made nasty little remarks...I don't help mean kids so get it yourself"....

Awesome.

I'm growing as a person....a few years ago I would have told the kid how ugly he was :-p

[movingforward]

Aug 1, 2013 12:31:30 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Holy shit...I would have flipped a fucking gasket if that were my child...

I'm not the best example...some rotten fucker made fun of my daughter's speech at the park many years ago (she might have been 4 or so)...I said, "someone she will speak but you will always be fat and ugly"...not one of my finer moments!  But I can't imagine what I would have done had they put my dd in a puddle of piss...

I would raise holy hell with all of the parents of the chiildren involved...I don't by the "kids will be kids" bullshit. 

Oh..just a fwe weeks ago I had her at the park and she wanted to play some game with two little boys who were there.  They were running from her and making snide comments (she didin't know it but I heard it).  I called her over to me (managed to hold my tongue this time) and I put her on this zip line type thing (not really a zip line, but the kids have to climb up some steps and reach out and grab this handle and it zips you to the other end)...unless you are tall enough someone has to bring the handle over for the kids.  The kids fat ass, lazy grandma was sitting a few feet away (she had to have heard what they were saying, which is what pissed me off)...anyway, the kid couldn't reach and asked me to get it for him.  I said, "remember when DD wanted to play just now and you ran and made nasty little remarks...I don't help mean kids so get it yourself"....the grandma looked at me and I was praying she would say something but she didn't.

[Formerly SK]

Aug 1, 2013 12:29:09 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

And again, it's not that I don't think the punishment isn't appropriate, it's just so extreme compared to my family norms

Boy you'd really dislike my reaction then.  After the urge to rub my kid's face in the pee to see how he likes it wore off eletronics wouldn't be the only thing to disappear.  My kid better be quaking in his boots at the mere thought of picking on that kid again after I'm done with him.

Well sure, and because you do that your kid will never be the type of kid who would drop someone in urine.  I'm VERY strict with my kids - they aren't allow an ounce of attitude with me let alone anything worse.  And because of that, they are well behaved.  I very rarely have to punish them, and the worst I've ever done is a time out. 

(Their temperament helps here, also our family dynamics of general kindness/politeness).  I don't want to sound like I'm a fabulous parent or anything.)

[Deleted]

There are lots of helicopter parents here.

[hoops902]

Any chance DH isn't really all that up in arms about this because he realizes that boys are basically dicks to other boys in general?  My friends and I used to do much worse to each other when we were kids.  And probably a big reason the leader doesn't "notice" is because you're looking at your own kid.  If you were zeroing in one some other kid, you'd probably notice people are mean to them as well.  (Part of the problem with boys i sthat they're assholes to their friends and assholes to their enemies, which makes it hard to determine if they're being a jerk to a kid because they're giving him a rough time as a friend, or actually bullying him).

I feel like in terms of the punishment, it's probably due to the revelation that DS has autism more than it is about dropping a kid in the piss area.  A lot of things that you can do to your buddies probably just gets a shake of the head like "boys are gonna be the death of me" while doing the same to the autistic kid gets them an ass-beating.  And it's probably exacerbated by the fact that someone's parent is complaining, so where someone noticing themselves might get nothing, the fact that someone's parent complained now gets them a much steeper punishment.  I mean what parent wants to be seen by the others as the one who thought picking on an autistic kid was ok? (even if they think picking on their best friend is).

[movingforward]

Aug 1, 2013 12:33:17 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Aug 1, 2013 12:24:38 GMT -5 skubikky said:

   '
Excuse me?   You're comparing an 8 year old bully to the perpetrator of the Holocaust?  Really? 

Yeah, I can't get past the comment that the troop leader doesn't care if her kid is a jerk, and then turn around and complain that her son's punishment for being a jerk was too severe.  You can't have it both ways. 

She said it was severe compared to punishments she has given in her own household and I think her main concern seems to be that the kid is going to retaliate by picking on her son even more, which I think is a valid concern. 

[973beachbum]

First I am so sorry that this happened.

My worry is that in a month your son will be in school with these boys and no one to protect him.  Personally I would have called the boys out on their behavior then, but not in the email.  Doing it then lets the kids know I won't let them get away with it.  I have never seen an 8 year old who didn't fess up when an adult called them on their lie. 

The email would feel like telling all the other parents what horrible parents they are.  Even if they don't believe it actually happened, they will feel the shame of being told their children are budding sociopaths in a group email.  the punishments could be very severe and actually do more harem than goo IMO.  Instead of focusing on "playing nice with others" l they will remember is "that is the kid who got us all in big trouble".

Maybe there is a way you can arrange a play date with the ring leader and his Mom, so they can learn to get along better even if they don't ever become real friends.  At least it could be a way for them to be able to be together and not have to worry about your son being bullied by him.   At school where you won't be around to see it and I hate to say it but then it could be even worse.  Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

[Formerly SK]

Aug 1, 2013 12:33:17 GMT -5 formerroomate99 said:

Aug 1, 2013 12:24:38 GMT -5 skubikky said:

   '
Excuse me?   You're comparing an 8 year old bully to the perpetrator of the Holocaust?  Really? 

Yeah, I can't get past the comment that the troop leader doesn't care if her kid is a jerk, and then turn around and complain that her son's punishment for being a jerk was too severe.  You can't have it both ways. 

I think you just don't like me, because I very clearly stated that wasn't the case.  Or perhaps my communication skills aren't as good as I think. 

[Deleted]

I would just like to say that the last thing I would have wanted when I was a kid was to have a playdate with my tormentor.  

[movingforward]

Aug 1, 2013 12:42:59 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I would just like to say that the last thing I would have wanted when I was a kid was to have a playdate with my tormentor.  

  x100

[hoops902]

Aug 1, 2013 12:42:59 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I would just like to say that the last thing I would have wanted when I was a kid was to have a playdate with my tormentor.  

Assuming he sees this kid as his tormentor, I agree.  Of course my best friends and I used to push each other down into piles of cowshit in the back fields when we were growing up, so being dropped in urine wouldn't have made me view someone as my tormentor.

[Deleted]

I knew the difference between who were my friends and who weren't.

ETA: every kid who was mean to me wasn't a tormentor, either. 

[973beachbum]

Aug 1, 2013 12:42:59 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I would just like to say that the last thing I would have wanted when I was a kid was to have a playdate with my tormentor.  

You would have rather been subjected to worse torment at school when no one is there to protect you? Cause make no mistake after that punishment this kid is going to be seriously pissed by the time school starts.

[Deleted]

Aug 1, 2013 12:52:23 GMT -5 @beerwench said:

I knew the difference between who were my friends and who weren't.

Kids with autism don't know as easily.