midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2013 12:52:01 GMT -5
And so what if he does? Like Anne said, unless he's taking pictures or harassing someone, what's the problem? Knowing the reason this is such an issue (safety concerns, general "ick" factor, shy bladder, whatever) would go a long way toward figuring out a solution. How many women on this board have used the men's room in a bar or at a concert when there's been a huge line for the other restroom? I know I have, probably more than once. As far as I know, it's not against the law. Yes, some people may be made uncomfortable by using the stall next to someone who doesn't look the part. I'm made uncomfortable by seeing people's back fat hanging out of their tube tops - doesn't mean it should be forbidden. (Well, maybe it should. ) I can't imagine that this is a situation that would present itself very often, anyway... assuming the men's room is in working order and relatively clean, are there really many guys vying to use the ladies' room? Or vice versa? I don't think setting standards based on the unlikely "what ifs" is the best idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 12:53:34 GMT -5
But Jenny - a lesbian could do that now and you don't seem to have a problem with it. Or hell, even a straight woman with a weird kink. Why is it only heterosexual men that you worry about using this "loophole?" I'm not trying to say that it's only noteworthy if a man does it - I'm just saying that abuses can occur if all we should go on is someone's word. Maybe I'm just more skeptical/pessimistic than most.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 27, 2013 12:56:50 GMT -5
I don't know near enough about it to say for sure but I'd assume if someone is to the point of using the lady's restroom they are in the process of transition and likely wearing women's clothing. So unless I check them out for an adam's apple or crotch grab I'm not going to know for sure it's a guy. Some random dude who is dressed like a dude in the restroom is another matter. It would depend on the hypothetical situation. A stranger I don't know absolutely I'm not going in there. If I see John randomly walking into the lady's restroom I am going to ask what's up. If I know John is transitioning to Jane I'm not going to say anything, it's none of my business. And I'd still take John using the lady's room if he leaves it cleaner than some of the women I share it with now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 12:59:52 GMT -5
Mid, I would argue that people's discomfort shouldn't be minimized. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've used the men's room - one, and we were in a building my scout troop rented out and there were no men present. Okay, two - but in my defense I was 4 and I ducked into the first bathroom I found! And yes, people with backfat need to wear whole, loosely-fitting shirts. I'm not saying I would give a trans person a hard time if they needed to use the bathroom of their choice. I am just not on board with forcing people to be okay with it and making them out to be some sort of ogre if they express the tiniest bit of discomfort.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 27, 2013 13:07:41 GMT -5
---But Jenny - a lesbian could do that now and you don't seem to have a problem with it. Or hell, even a straight woman with a weird kink. Why is it only heterosexual men that you worry about using this "loophole?"---
---I'm not trying to say that it's only noteworthy if a man does it - I'm just saying that abuses can occur if all we should go on is someone's word. Maybe I'm just more skeptical/pessimistic than most.--
And I'm saying that for all you know abuses occur all the time, right now, right at this second. Women could record or creep on women. Men could record or creep on men. But you seem to be saying it's only a problem when other sexes do it.
Which is why I think you argument doesn't hold up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 13:17:57 GMT -5
---But Jenny - a lesbian could do that now and you don't seem to have a problem with it. Or hell, even a straight woman with a weird kink. Why is it only heterosexual men that you worry about using this "loophole?"--- ---I'm not trying to say that it's only noteworthy if a man does it - I'm just saying that abuses can occur if all we should go on is someone's word. Maybe I'm just more skeptical/pessimistic than most.-- And I'm saying that for all you know abuses occur all the time, right now, right at this second. Women could record or creep on women. Men could record or creep on men. But you seem to be saying it's only a problem when other sexes do it. Which is why I think you argument doesn't hold up. I guess because I'd expect it more from the opposite sex, but you're right - it could happen with anyone. I guess I'll just plan to hold it until I get home....
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jun 27, 2013 13:18:30 GMT -5
I have a completly different take on this which is weird I am probably close to the most liberal person on this board. I feel everyone should have the right to do whatever they want wiht their own lives and bodies. But the flip side is that people shouldn't ever be forced to do something they don't want. This whole thread feels like bullying to me. Not in a PB CoC way, but in a real world way. I say I am uncomfortable with a man in the bathroom. I am told tuff shit because my being uncomfortable with it is fine with you. It reminded me of the court papers on Paula Deens brother. He probably thought his jokes about bj's was fine too. There were probably others there who were fine with it. But I didn't see anyone saying that made it okay. How the heck can it be less wrong to force me in a position where I am on a toilet with my pants down at my ankles, than it is to force me to hear a joke I find uncomfortable, said in a public room with others around hearing and watching? And the lesbian thing is just a deversion to me. Outside of a prison I have never heard of a woman being raped by another woman. I am pretty sure I could also take most other woman in a fight if I had to. I can't say the same about most men and I have heard of women being raped in public bathrooms.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 27, 2013 13:36:56 GMT -5
So are we talking public restroom or work restrooms which is what the complaint in the OP is about?
It could happen but the odds of me getting raped in my work bathroom are pretty low. If there is a stranger, male or female walking around in the building I'm supposed to call security, doesn't matter what bathroom they use.
One of the male professors is walking into the women's bathroom I'll correct him. Walking out I might ask the secretary about it.
I see the same male professor come to work tomorrow dressed as a woman and using the women's restroom you'll have to help me pick my jaw up off the ground. BUT I'm not going to say anything because for him to suddenly show up dressed as a woman means something's going on I'm not privvy to. I'm not going to be the only one who notices, if something odd is going on it'll be addressed at some point.
The bathroom I refer to as the "axe murderer" bathroom in the Old Market because its location would make it great for assults I don't use it if anyone I don't know is around, male or female. Same with a way out of the way public restroom in the mall that was down a long dark hallway.
Target it's going to depend. If it appears to be a very masculine looking female I'm not going to run over and crotch grab or search for an adam's apple. I'm going to MYOB. If it's a regular guy I will say something to management. It's up to them after that.
I think it's fine to be uncomfortable but I don't know enough about trangenderism to decide who gets to use what bathroom.
In my workplace if management/HR is fine with it there isn't much I can do , if it makes me uncomfortable enough I'll find a different workplace where I don't have to share the bathroom.
In public I use my best judgement.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jun 27, 2013 13:37:40 GMT -5
So just make them all unisex. More traffic means things would be less likely to happen in my opinion. I would prefer this option - if we were out and about and DD needed to use the restroom and DH could come in there with us, that would make me feel a lot safer (depending on where we were). And if you know that anyone can walk in at any time, you might be less likely to lie in wait for some helpless female knowing that another man who could kick your ass could also be right behind her. All stalls with doors - like the individual little room ones with full walls on three sides and a door. Solves a lot of problems.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2013 13:39:00 GMT -5
As have I. So if a transwoman is to use the men's room (since she is genetically XY), how is this any safer for her? I would guess her odds of being raped/assaulted by someone in the men's room (especially given what Former posted) are much higher than the odds of a random rapist walking into the women's room. If it's solely a size/physical overpowerment issue, maybe we should have a "small person" restroom and a "large person" restroom - because as POM pointed out, there are a lot of huge muscle-bound women, and a lot of small/weak-looking men. Woman-on-woman rape doesn't only happen in prison. (And woman-on-man rape is not uncommon, either). I don't think anyone is fine with you being uncomfortable (at least that's not how I feel and not what I'm trying to say). My only point is that there are a lot of things that make everyone uncomfortable, and these usually vary person-to-person. And there are some people who are made uncomfortable by a LOT of things, and others who aren't really fazed by much at all. How do we decide whose feelings take precedence? Majority vote? Or something else? It's a tough issue, for sure.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 27, 2013 13:40:10 GMT -5
If it's solely a size/physical overpowerment issue, maybe we should have a "small person" restroom and a "large person" restroom
Will the small person restrooms be fit to size? I could go for that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 13:43:23 GMT -5
I have a completly different take on this which is weird I am probably close to the most liberal person on this board. I feel everyone should have the right to do whatever they want wiht their own lives and bodies. But the flip side is that people shouldn't ever be forced to do something they don't want. This whole thread feels like bullying to me. Not in a PB CoC way, but in a real world way. I say I am uncomfortable with a man in the bathroom. I am told tuff shit because my being uncomfortable with it is fine with you. It reminded me of the court papers on Paula Deens brother. He probably thought his jokes about bj's was fine too. There were probably others there who were fine with it. But I didn't see anyone saying that made it okay. How the heck can it be less wrong to force me in a position where I am on a toilet with my pants down at my ankles, than it is to force me to hear a joke I find uncomfortable, said in a public room with others around hearing and watching? And the lesbian thing is just a deversion to me. Outside of a prison I have never heard of a woman being raped by another woman. I am pretty sure I could also take most other woman in a fight if I had to. I can't say the same about most men and I have heard of women being raped in public bathrooms. At work?!? I don't think any guy is going to be so overcome by my beauty (let me live the dream!   that he risks his job over it.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 27, 2013 13:46:26 GMT -5
If it's solely a size/physical overpowerment issue, maybe we should have a "small person" restroom and a "large person" restroom
Will the small person restrooms be fit to size? I could go for that. Hah, me too! I can only see myself from the neck up in our restroom mirror, which is not useful considering the amount of food/drink I tend to spill on my clothes throughout the day.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 27, 2013 13:47:47 GMT -5
Don't underestimate yourself!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 14:00:42 GMT -5
I think Mid JD hit the nail on the head....using the male restroom makes the transgendered person uncomfortable, but the other women are uncomfortable if the transgendered person uses the female restroom. How do we decide who gets to be uncomfortable? (there are going to be some people that are also uncomfortable with a unisex bathroom ). Whose needs/feelings take priority? Majority rules?
Personally, while this isn't something that really bothers me, I am getting a little sick of having to accommodate everyone that gets offended by anything.
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greeniis10
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Post by greeniis10 on Jun 27, 2013 14:05:10 GMT -5
So just make them all unisex. More traffic means things would be less likely to happen in my opinion. I would prefer this option - if we were out and about and DD needed to use the restroom and DH could come in there with us, that would make me feel a lot safer (depending on where we were). And if you know that anyone can walk in at any time, you might be less likely to lie in wait for some helpless female knowing that another man who could kick your ass could also be right behind her. All stalls with doors - like the individual little room ones with full walls on three sides and a door. Solves a lot of problems. I agree with you, however, I would bet that ironically, the bathrooms would "default" to male and female specific. Meaning, if a few women go into one then the next female would probably either by default or habit follow suit. Same for the men. Excluding, of course, the case of a long line; then I'd imagine you'd go to whichever one you could get through quicker. I don't know, I just think it's so ingrained to separate them by gender that by usage it would eventually happen that way.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2013 14:06:26 GMT -5
Don't underestimate yourself! Awww.....wanna meet up in the bathroom??!?
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 27, 2013 14:15:07 GMT -5
There has been no change in his outward appearance in at least 3 years (possibly longer), even though he has always talked openly of his intentions to go through the process(es?) to become female.
I haven't read all 7 pages to see if this has been addressed but this is what jumped out at me. And it not so much his intentions but the length of time he's been talking about it. From what I understand (keep in mind that I have never met someone who claimed to be transgendered or was open about having already gone through the process), even those people who are not prepared (financially or cleared by their doctors re: their mental/physical health) to go through the surgeries required to fully transition, will start off by transitioning their outward appearance and usually begin some type of hormone therapy.
For a man to go three years without taking any of those steps would have me questioning his true intentions. Just having long hair doesn't make you a female. Does he wear makeup, dress as a female, etc? To me, those as well as being under the care of a physcian who can document his intentions would have some weight in whether I'd allow him to continue into the ladies room or not. And I have a feeling that if he was truly sincere in his intentions, there would be few if any complaints. These could also make him part of an 80s glam metal band. Please tell me I'm not the only one who thought that Back to my reading/your serious discussion.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Jun 27, 2013 14:25:40 GMT -5
I have a completly different take on this which is weird I am probably close to the most liberal person on this board. I feel everyone should have the right to do whatever they want wiht their own lives and bodies. But the flip side is that people shouldn't ever be forced to do something they don't want. This whole thread feels like bullying to me. Not in a PB CoC way, but in a real world way. I say I am uncomfortable with a man in the bathroom. I am told tuff shit because my being uncomfortable with it is fine with you. It reminded me of the court papers on Paula Deens brother. He probably thought his jokes about bj's was fine too. There were probably others there who were fine with it. But I didn't see anyone saying that made it okay. How the heck can it be less wrong to force me in a position where I am on a toilet with my pants down at my ankles, than it is to force me to hear a joke I find uncomfortable, said in a public room with others around hearing and watching? And the lesbian thing is just a deversion to me. Outside of a prison I have never heard of a woman being raped by another woman. I am pretty sure I could also take most other woman in a fight if I had to. I can't say the same about most men and I have heard of women being raped in public bathrooms. The fact that you referr to a "man" in the bathroom (when we are clearly discussing people who are transgender, and therefore, women) demonstrates that you are probably not the most liberal person on the board.
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