djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 2, 2013 20:44:15 GMT -5
Oh no, I don't think so AT ALL. that's nice. i do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 6:19:27 GMT -5
I said no such thing. How many times are you going to change your story or twist my words?
The US has some of the highest oil reserves in the world. But if you want to generalize and say energy, it doesn't matter. They all work the same way.
Let's cut to the chase. Please prove your claim. No anecdotes. Only hard data.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 6:24:19 GMT -5
Yes, as usual, you did do a great job spinning a great story. Speaking of, we were also just voted the 6th happiest country in the industrialized world. Considering there's not a huge difference from one country to the next, I guess we're not doing all that bad. I don't feel like reading 5 pages on this subject, however the above statement is only true if we are all Dutch. The USA didn't even make it into the top ten...again! www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/55555555555Here is the 2013 survey. US is #6, as I said. By the way, your statement about the US not making the top 10 is an odd one, but understandable. I saw the same USA Today article that says exactly that. However, the survey that USA Today refers to, clearly shows the US ranked #6.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 6:25:41 GMT -5
I don't feel like reading 5 pages on this subject, however the above statement is only true if we are all Dutch. The USA didn't even make it into the top ten...again! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings1 Costa Rica 64.0 7.3 79.3 2.52 Vietnam 60.4 5.8 75.2 1.4 3 Colombia 59.8 6.4 73.7 1.8 4 Belize 59.3 6.5 76.1 2.1 5 El Salvador 58.9 6.7 72.2 2.0 6 Jamaica 58.5 6.2 73.1 1.7 7 Panama 57.8 7.3 76.1 3.0 8 Nicaragua 57.1 5.7 74.0 1.6 9 Venezuela 56.9 7.5 74.4 3.0 10 Guatemala 56.9 6.3 71.2 1.8 50 France 46.5 6.8 81.5 4.9The "Happy Planet Index" is not at all about people actually being happy. It is an index that is skewed to pick the "greenest" countries. Read the link you posted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 7:29:40 GMT -5
I have not changed my story at all.
I provided data that named oil barons that are worth billion$ each and showed that they are also in the top 1%. What more do you want. I'm not going to start quoting the stats and data put out by the oil companies the way you do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 7:32:15 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings1 Costa Rica 64.0 7.3 79.3 2.52 Vietnam 60.4 5.8 75.2 1.4 3 Colombia 59.8 6.4 73.7 1.8 4 Belize 59.3 6.5 76.1 2.1 5 El Salvador 58.9 6.7 72.2 2.0 6 Jamaica 58.5 6.2 73.1 1.7 7 Panama 57.8 7.3 76.1 3.0 8 Nicaragua 57.1 5.7 74.0 1.6 9 Venezuela 56.9 7.5 74.4 3.0 10 Guatemala 56.9 6.3 71.2 1.8 50 France 46.5 6.8 81.5 4.9 The "Happy Planet Index" is not at all about people actually being happy. It is an index that is skewed to pick the "greenest" countries. Read the link you posted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 7:42:28 GMT -5
You stated that 99% of oil revenue goes to the 1%. Then you changed your story and said 99% of profits go to the 1%. Then you changed your story and said you didn't really mean 99% to the 1%. Then you posted an article about one guy who has made billions (which accounts for only a teeny tiny % of all the oil money out there).
I want you to actually back up your statement. Show me where the money goes. It's really not that hard.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 7:46:43 GMT -5
The "Happy Planet Index" is not at all about people actually being happy. It is an index that is skewed to pick the "greenest" countries. Read the link you posted. From the article that YOU linked to, snowbird: "The index is weighted to give progressively higher scores to nations with lower ecological footprints." "As such, the HPI is not a measure of which are the happiest countries in the world. Countries with relatively high levels of life satisfaction, as measured in surveys, are found from the very top (Colombia in 6th place) to the very bottom (the USA in 114th place) of the rank order. The HPI is best conceived as a measure of the environmental efficiency of supporting well-being in a given country." "Much criticism of the index has been due to commentators falsely understanding it to be a measure of happiness, when it is in fact a measure of the ecological efficiency of supporting well-being" It's called the Happy Planet Index, not the Happy People Index. If you're going to post something, at least read it first. The article clearly states that it is NOT a measure of how happy people are. I mean heck, in that list, you have a country like the Philippines, where something like 40% of the people live in abject poverty, there are terrible human rights violations, birth control is illegal and birth rates are high among the poor. Disabled people are frequently left to fend for themselves on the streets. Yeah, that's a country full of happy people. They rank EXTREMELY low in terms of personal well being, but because they skew the results more to how much of an impact the people have on the planet, they rank high. Why do they rank high? Because people who live in tin shacks with nothing, with no hope of living a decent life, with high chance of early death, don't do a whole lot to harm the planet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 7:52:46 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_IndexInternational Rankings 2006 [edit] Rank Country SWL Rank Country SWL 1 Denmark 273.33 90 Japan 206.67 2 Switzerland 273.33 91 Yemen 206.67 3 Austria 260 92 Portugal 203.33 4 Iceland 260 93 Sri Lanka 203.33 5 The Bahamas 256.67 94 Tajikistan 203.33 6 Finland 256.67 95 Vietnam 203.33 7 Sweden 256.67 96 Iran 200 8 Bhutan 253.33 97 Comoros 196.67 9 Brunei 253.33 98 Croatia 196.67 10 Canada 253.33 99 Poland 196.67 11 Ireland 253.33 100 Cape Verde 193.33 12 Luxembourg 253.33 101 Kazakhstan 193.33 13 Costa Rica 250 102 South Korea 193.33 14 Malta 250 103 Madagascar 193.33 15 Netherlands 250 104 Bangladesh 190 16 Antigua and Barbuda 246.67 105 Republic of the Congo 190 17 Malaysia 246.67 106 The Gambia 190 18 New Zealand 246.67 107 Hungary 190 19 Norway 246.67 108 Libya 190 20 Seychelles 246.67 109 South Africa 190 21 Saint Kitts and Nevis 246.67 110 Cambodia 186.67 22 United Arab Emirates 246.67 111 Ecuador 186.67 23 United States 246.67 112 Kenya 186.67
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 8:27:53 GMT -5
None of that changed my story, it clarified because you get a hate on whenever anyone suggests that there are a few people making most of the money from oil and nit pick details of how it is worded rather than accept the main point. My main point is and always has been that the profits from oil are not spread out and I continue to maintain that. The billionaires in the top 1% back up exactly what I have said.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 8:35:05 GMT -5
Fascinating. And you see the US does much better when they actually look at happiness. But it's a 2006 study and does not invalidate my point that the study from 2013 put us at #6. Right?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 8:54:23 GMT -5
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't prove a darn thing.
For example, ExxonMobil. The five biggest shareholders hold 5.27 million shares. That comes to about 0.12% of outstanding shares. The top 20 shareholders hold less than 0.25% of the shares. Insiders hold 0.14% of the shares. 50% of shares are held by institutions, which means mutual funds, 401ks, pensions, etc. The rest are small individual shareholders. Some rich, mostly not rich.
See, that is actual backup. If you'd like, I could provide it for any other publically traded oil company of your choosing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 8:58:50 GMT -5
bob we already had the talk about market corrections. I have addressed everything you have brought up and now you are repeating yourself. I'm done. I made the statement and backed it up multiple times. Take care.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 3, 2013 9:00:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 9:29:57 GMT -5
You made the statement and then backed it up by posting a list of billionaires whose net worth at most account for 2-3% of oil profits. Probalby less than 1%. I showed you that almost all of ExxonMobil's stock is owned directly by or for the benefit of people who are NOT members of the 1%. The same is true for any other oil major. On top of that, ExxonMobil, with their $44B in profit, spends more than that on employees, contractors, and indiret labor (i.e. labor that produces goods and services that XOM consumes). Less than 5% of that goes to executives.
At this point you're just arguing because you don't want to admit that you learned something. You have offered zero information that backs up your statement. Saying that there are a few oil billionaires out there is anecdotal evidence. It means nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 9:37:18 GMT -5
The OECD study released in 2013 lists the US as the 6th happiest country. True or false? Please provide a one-word answer or just say that my original comment was accurate. Then quit arguing.
You do understand that the recession was global, right? The US is doing far better than Europe. Eurozone unemployment is over 12% and some of the countries there are occasionally rioting.
Tennesseer--Thanks. That makes sense. Either way, I don't think there was a huge difference in the top 20. They're all doing pretty well relative to eachother.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 9:39:04 GMT -5
No I'm not. My position is thought out and based on more than oil company press releases. I have read your blurbs many many times and you have failed to convince me.
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genericname
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Post by genericname on Jun 3, 2013 9:39:20 GMT -5
Anecdotally, I am in individual investor in a few stocks. Not rich, definitely not a 1%er, and not one with a penchant to buy high and sell low. I'm more of a long term, buy and hold, dividend investor. I have a few thousand $$ worth of ExxonMobil. Incidentally my first ever stock purchased long ago. I'm pretty happy with their dividend and the performance of the stock over the past five years. I reject the notion that all oil profits go to the 1%. I am by no means an expert in the energy industry, but I have lived in a large energy-based economic area for most of my life, and I see the investment in people and R & D that oil companies must make to remain competitive. I don't begrudge the guys at the top making good compensation, because they are taking a lot of risk to move the company forward. And that is my anecdotal contribution to the debate.
Oh yeah, I don't think a vacation is a birthright. I think that if you work hard, develop a marketable skill set, pay your dues and get a decent job, you will EARN your vacation. I worked my way up from stable hand and table busser to the six figure job I have now. Eight years of college and a plethora of student loans later, I get vacation, sick time, the ability to purchase health insurance through my employer, etc. I don't mind making my student loan payments every month, without the education I would not be where I am today.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 10:16:13 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 10:20:19 GMT -5
Okay, one last statement to complete the contrast with now Norway handles their oil profits, since my first comment was countering the claim that the only reason they could balance there budget is because they had so much oil.
And here is the link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jun 3, 2013 10:37:40 GMT -5
Fascinating. And you see the US does much better when they actually look at happiness. But it's a 2006 study and does not invalidate my point that the study from 2013 put us at #6. Right? Not really. We are at 6th when they combine a whole bunch of factors - incomes, housing, jobs, environment, etc, which they used in creating the "better life" index, not a "happiness" index. While those relate to happiness, you can't automatically say that a country with those things has happy people. Happiness is a feeling, something subjective, you can't plug in some variables & necessarily calculate happiness, especially since there are probably a lot more factors than the 11 they measures. I think the only part of the OECD survey that matters when you want to talk about the HAPPINESS of a country would be the "life satisfaction" category. That is a subjective measurement and going to come a lot closure to determining the happiness of a country that knowing about jobs, income, & housing. We come in 14th in life satisfaction. We may have a lot of other stuff going for us, but we don't seem to happy overall.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 11:00:56 GMT -5
www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/06/01/happiest-countries-in-the-world/2377563/The Better Life Index rates the 36 OECD countries in 11 areas that aim to cover every aspect of life, including income, education, health, work-life balance and life satisfaction. STORY HIGHLIGHTS Better life index includes income, education, health, work-life balance and life satisfaction Life expectancy, good health, and high employment: key indicators of satisfaction Canada, Mexico, and Scandinavian countries crack top 10; USA does notThe residents of Switzerland are the most satisfied with their lives, according to the latest Better Life Index report, released this week by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). Switzerland has moved up to the top spot, bumping Denmark to fifth. For the third year, the United States failed to make the top 10, while countries like Canada, Mexico and all the Scandinavian nations did. The Better Life Index rates the 36 OECD countries in 11 areas that aim to cover every aspect of life, including income, education, health, work-life balance and life satisfaction. 24/7 Wall St. reviewed the Better Life Index and ranked the countries based on the life satisfaction measure alone.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 3, 2013 12:56:33 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index#International_rankings1 Costa Rica 64.0 7.3 79.3 2.52 Vietnam 60.4 5.8 75.2 1.4 3 Colombia 59.8 6.4 73.7 1.8 4 Belize 59.3 6.5 76.1 2.1 5 El Salvador 58.9 6.7 72.2 2.0 6 Jamaica 58.5 6.2 73.1 1.7 7 Panama 57.8 7.3 76.1 3.0 8 Nicaragua 57.1 5.7 74.0 1.6 9 Venezuela 56.9 7.5 74.4 3.0 10 Guatemala 56.9 6.3 71.2 1.8 50 France 46.5 6.8 81.5 4.9 The "Happy Planet Index" is not at all about people actually being happy. It is an index that is skewed to pick the "greenest" countries. Read the link you posted. this, no doubt, has something to do with France's extensive nuclear power programme.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 3, 2013 12:58:08 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_IndexInternational Rankings 2006 [edit] Rank Country SWL Rank Country SWL 1 Denmark 273.33 90 Japan 206.67 2 Switzerland 273.33 91 Yemen 206.67 3 Austria 260 92 Portugal 203.33 4 Iceland 260 93 Sri Lanka 203.33 5 The Bahamas 256.67 94 Tajikistan 203.33 6 Finland 256.67 95 Vietnam 203.33 7 Sweden 256.67 96 Iran 200 8 Bhutan 253.33 97 Comoros 196.67 9 Brunei 253.33 98 Croatia 196.67 10 Canada 253.33 99 Poland 196.67 11 Ireland 253.33 100 Cape Verde 193.33 12 Luxembourg 253.33 101 Kazakhstan 193.33 13 Costa Rica 250 102 South Korea 193.33 14 Malta 250 103 Madagascar 193.33 15 Netherlands 250 104 Bangladesh 190 16 Antigua and Barbuda 246.67 105 Republic of the Congo 190 17 Malaysia 246.67 106 The Gambia 190 18 New Zealand 246.67 107 Hungary 190 19 Norway 246.67 108 Libya 190 20 Seychelles 246.67 109 South Africa 190 21 Saint Kitts and Nevis 246.67 110 Cambodia 186.67 22 United Arab Emirates 246.67 111 Ecuador 186.67 23 United States 246.67 112 Kenya 186.67 let's all move to Brunei.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 13:13:34 GMT -5
What oil company press releases? My data on ExxonMobil is independently audited, heavily regulated, and reported to the Securities and Exchange Commission. That isn't good enough for you? Or you just don't like the content so you simply dismiss it outright?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 14:52:56 GMT -5
let's all move to Brunei.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 14:58:41 GMT -5
Are those the same guys that said hedge funds were a good investment? Or just good friends with them?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 17:08:39 GMT -5
You don't even know what an independent auditor does, do you?
It's very convenient world you live in where you can just write off all information that doesn't suit you as somehow being false.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 18:29:20 GMT -5
By the way, to further burst your bubble, the reason all the oil royalties in Norway go to the govt is because the oil is all produced in the ocean. Well guess what? That's exactly how it works in the US as well. So Norway isn't that progressive after all.
Edit/Correction: I do see where if oil were produced on land in Norway, royalties would also go to the gov't. I'll still take the private property rights we have here in the US.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jun 3, 2013 18:33:45 GMT -5
By the way, to further burst your bubble, the reason all the oil royalties in Norway go to the govt is because the oil is all produced in the ocean. Well guess what? That's exactly how it works in the US as well. So Norway isn't that progressive after all. ib- have you checked out the economic stats on Brunei? i had NO IDEA that there was any nation in that part of the world doing that well. astounding. then again, they only have 400k residents. my home town practically has that many peeps.
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